| Author | Message | ||
| Bobbylog Registered user Username: Bobbylog Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2006 |
a christian is someone who goes regularly to church ? someone who follows the teaching of the Lord and believe? Someone who is part of a religious community, a church? someone who was baptized ..?is it an identity ? does someone stop being a christian if that person doesn't go to church anymore and doesn't believe in the church..? Still, I heard of a charismatic woman who claim to be a christian , but have never been baptized at all .. I heard of an ex-christian who said ..he is no more, because he is no more part of any church .. what do you think ? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4418 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bobby, a Christian is a person who has repented and believed in the Lord Jesus and His once-for-all sacrifice of Himself for our sin and his resurrection which gives us new life. A person who has submitted himself to Jesus as his Lord in repentance and acceptance of His grace through Jesus is sealed with the Holy Spirit. He is brought to life spiritually by the indwelling Holy Spirit. This person is a true Christian. A Christian is not defined by his church-going or by baptism. He is defined by his submission to the Lord Jesus and by his new birth. On the other hand, a true Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit will fellowship with other believers regularly, and he will be baptized in obedience to Jesusóbut none of this is part of salvation. It is a result of salvation, but salvation is seucred by the Lord Jesus, not by one's church attendance. If you are confused about what makes a Christian, Bobby, I'd like to encourage you to read the book of John and ask God to reveal Jesus to you. Respond to His call to you to repent and to submit to Him as Lord. He is absolutely faithful. Colleen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2006  |
I agree with Colleen on this and want to add as well that a Christian is a person which follows Christ, a disciple of Christ and having God living in him as well. You can't really be sure if a person is a Christian, but you can get a clue about it seeing the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the persons life. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 125 Registered: 4-2006 |
Also I do belive that once Christian always Christian, in the sence that you can't loose your Salvation. This really fills my soul with joy, I feel like dancing, in fact i'll do a little joy dance right now  | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 474 Registered: 2-2001 |
MWH-- I sooooo agree There would be no Good News if we could loose our salvation. We would be so worried about "have I lost it yet?" that we would spend no time dancing and inviting others to the dance! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1441 Registered: 10-2004  |
Bobby, A Christian is someone who has trusted Jesus Christ's sacrifice and righteousness alone to save them, rather than trusting in their own: righteousness, baptism, church membership, church attendance, keeping of the Law, following of the teachings of Jesus, or good works.
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4419 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wonderful texts, Jeremy! Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 285 Registered: 7-2005  |
Salvation is a gift and being a christian is also a gift which God gave us personally. We enjoy this gift individually, and we need not to be with others, with the church to posses this gift, or to be part of a church for the goal of not loosing our salvation. This does not imply that we will not seek fellowship with other christians. It's a joy to be together, even on the internet! People who share a common passion for Jesus, for his marvelous gift of salvation, who are dancing and praising God will want to dance together. There is something that must be shared. A salvation which cannot be loosed, is the most wonderful news! But only after you are saved, you will want to be part of a living church. Only after you experience the power of the gospel, will you be willing to join in worship with others who are also believers in God's gift. As an adventist I had no joy in the cross. Even if Jesus died for my sins, my future was still in my hands, ready to be destroyed by my sinful actions. But when I understand to put my entire trust in God, and that my salvation has everything to do with what God did, sending His Son to die for my all sins, past present, and future, and that the record of my sins is erased, this brought me joy. Salvation is of the Lord, not because I choose Him, but because He choosed me and keeps me in His arms, forgiving all my sins, not "a few of my sins" (Colossians 2:13) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4423 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, you have described the joy of salvation so vividly. You are right; only after one is saved is there true joy in fellowshipóin fact, only then do we really long for it. And my uncertainty as an Adventist was a continual source of anxiety. It is such a joy and unimagined gift to KNOW that I am secure in Jesus because HE holds me! I am saved by Himóand I am kept by Him. He is everything! It doesn't depend on me. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2272 Registered: 11-2002 |
I do not know if I agree with the statement, 'once a Christian always a Christian. You cannot loose eternal life." I have had several friends who were once Christians and are now not Christian. Several became Hindu, one became Hare Krishna and one became a Zen Buddhist and the one that was raised very extreme historical SDA is not a practicing witch. She actually told me when she read in EGW's writings that EGW had demons in her bedroom and that EGW consulted with her dead husband she then realized maybe she should just stop calling herself a SDA and get more into the outerregions of spirituality. It's weird but that's what I was told. So, I do believe one can trun away from Christ. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 127 Registered: 4-2006 |
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1. John 2:19 Maybe the people who left wasnt Christians in the first place. If they did trust/belived in Jesus that he would save them, why did they leave then? | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 286 Registered: 7-2005 |
Susan, like you, sometimes I doubt that we are secure in God's arms, like Jesus said about His sheeps John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." I saw also people who for a time seems to be christians abandoning their faith. Every time I have to decide who I was to trust; the external experience or the word of God. By my experience, indeed sometimes I saw a good christian become an unbeliever. But it's only the external evidence, the surface, his heart I cannot know, it's incomprehensible for me, hidden for all eyes, except God. And because God sees everything, I surrender my evaluation to His word, especially to 1 John 2:19, the text MWH quoted, an excellent text, thanks Mwh. In God's evaluation, a former believer was never a true one. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2002  |
I think it's like in the Chronicles of Narnia, when the kids ask Aslan (Christ in the story) what happened to other people, He tells them, "That is his own story, and it's not for you to know. No one is told anyone's story but their own." The promises of security in God are between you and Him---and for intercession in prayer if He so leads. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 130 Registered: 7-2004 |
I now go to a Southern Baptist Church and one of the things I cannot quite accept is the "once saved, always saved". I'm with Susan. I know there are people who have had a deep relationship with Christ and who now don't live for Him at all! I think that because of free will we are able to turn away, but God would never turn us away. I like the two responses that it is not for us to know. One thing I hate is when some of my Christian friends say "oh he/she is/is not saved". I feel like "how dare we make such a bold statement about another's faith or personal relationship with Christ! I have totally misjudged others motives MANY times! It is up to GOD and GOD alone who is or is not saved, and AMEN, only he knows! Sorry, had to get that off my chest! Bb | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 287 Registered: 7-2005 |
Bb, I agree with you in this statement We may believe about others that they have a deep relationship with Christ, but only God knows how "deep" is that relationship. But, according to God's word, when someone who for me and you was a believer apostatizes, what previously only God knew is now revealed: he was not a true believer.
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| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2004 |
That makes sense Jakob! Bb | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 476 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bb, Let me give you some things to think about. If we are able to turn away from God after we have accepted Jesus, at what point do you loose your salvation? After one sin? two? If you are able to turn away from God then who are you trusting for eternal life? Yourself-in how long can I hold on or Jesus-He told me if I believe I am saved, He did the work and I rest in it? If you believe you can loose your salvation and as the Free Will Baptist say "we have a hope of eternal life if we can perservere" then who are you focusing on your works or Jesus' completed works? People have varing degrees of outward actions in their christin life. we may not understand what all is going on and it may look terrible to us, but God knows all and He can handle it. Whenever I think I am making a mess of my life I think of the love that God had for David. Murderer, adulterer--the list goes on yet He loved God--his flesh was weak, but he knew he needed God. Many of us have very weak flesh, but we know we still depend on God for every breath no matter what we are doing on the outside. V | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2004 |
I guess my thought is not that the "sins" can keep you from Jesus because he promises to cleanse us, but rather I am thinking of the person who decides to allow his heart to be hardened to the point that he rejects Jesus. Unlike David, who was weak but loved Jesus and was repentant, I am thinking of someone who just flat out doesn't want anything more to do with Him. Becomes an unbeliever. I think that it would not be like God to force someone like that into His arms. But I guess that goes back to the fact that this person probably never had a genuine saving faith in Jesus to begin with. I am much more confident in Jesus' love and grace for me than when I was an SDA, because I always thought that at any time I would be lost because I forgot to ask forgiveness for telling a white lie 20 years ago or something ridiculous like that. I obsessed about any unconfessed sin, and cried my eyes out to Jesus to help me be able to live through the horrible "end times" without the Holy Spirit. What a nightmare to think about!! I think that is why people just would rather give up than think about it night and day. That is where I was for a while. Then I struggled to get back to "living right". But I never thought I was going to make it unless I went all the way to the freakishly conservative style of dress and eating. That was like the pinnacle of success as a "good adventist". And I really had no desire to live like that, so I guess I thought I probably would never make it to heaven. It really takes one away from the wonderful thing that Jesus did for us and makes one focus on HIMSELF and what he can do to MAKE IT! It really sounds crazy now! Now I feel that no matter how evangelical and loving some SDA churches are, they have good old EGW to pull them back into the trenches of despair over their salvation! Bb | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 130 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bb, some more things, I sometimes think about, which you may ponder about: A Christian is born again, how can he undo his new birth? A Christian is part of the body of Christ, how can one part of the body decide to go its own way, isn't it the head (Jes™s) that controls the body? God is completing his work in the life of the Christian, will God make an incomplete work? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 590 Registered: 8-2004  |
What is the definition of 'turning away from God'? I don't think it is fair to say you 'turn from God' when you fall into sin, no matter how many times that happens. In my understanding to 'turn from God' is to reject Him, repudiate Him, adamantly refuse to recognise His work in your life, and to ascribe His work in your life to the work of the devil. Hebrews 6:4-6 says (Amplified Version): " For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace." When Jesus is blatantly, forcefully rejected, after 'having consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit' what place is there then found for repentance? Even then though, God is 'longsuffering, not willing that any should perish'. It's my firm understanding that God will, or rather HAS done everything that is do-able to save us all. Even in this rather dark and dismal text I see hope: "[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned]". When we stop our fight, when we lay down our arms, when we stop running away from Him, God is still right there ready to take us up. He doesn't take us because we are good or because we are sinless. He takes us as we are. In reference to sheep wandering (could this apply here, to those who reject him and leave?) Jesus spoke about the good Shepherd, not the 'good sheep'. He spoke of the shepherd going out to seek the sheep, not the sheep straightening himself out banging down the door of the sheepfold. And even more encouraging, he spoke of FINDING that sheep and bringing it back! What an awesome God we serve! Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4430 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, what a great observation. I love your distinction between "the good Shepherd" and the "good sheep". I also really like your observation, Mwh, about Jesus being the head of the bodyóand the body parts can't just separate from the body as if they had total autonomy apart from the nurturing, holding power of the Head. I also come back to CS Lewis's statement which Ramone mentioned: It's not for us to know another's story. God only speaks to us of our own story. God doesn't expect us to create a system that is so "aritight" all humans fit neatly into it. God's salvation of us is personal, not corporate. (In fact, this fact is what sets evangelical Christians apart from traditions that say salvation is through a "church". ) We know absolutely that salvation is ALL of God and nothing of ourselves, but as for how He holds us and perfects us and teaches us obedience to Himóthose things are individual, and rather than trying to decide if others are really saved or not, our only appropriate response is to personally respond to Jesus and His Spirit as they teach and discipline us. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 133 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you all so much. I also love the references to sheep and being a part of the body of Christ. Both of those illustrations are from Jesus and I tend to forget them in my struggle with self being in charge! Thank you Colleen, God is in control. I guess that is why I don't like it when people state with assurance that he or she is or is not saved. That is not my call. Bb | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 265 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think in a way it's kind of like living by the law---when you live by law, you're living by sight. It's like putting notches on the wall to measure your growth. You say, "I've done this, and this, and need only to do this." You think can "see" where you stand with God. In a similar way I think we often want something similar in order to judge other people--whether they are "saved" or not. We want to be able to say "this person has crossed the line." True, we can get a good idea and we know there are certain things that the Spirit will never say, but at the same time it's really only God who knows. I remember having a talk with a pastor (non-SDA) once and I mentioned something along the lines that we really don't know "where the line" is. But the pastor arrogantly interrupted and said, "I know where the line is! It's when someone denies Jesus as their Lord and Savior." That put a quick end to the discussion. Oh well. The whole removal of the external standard (the Law) means that in order to know our 'status' with God, we need to look at God Himself, we need to ask Him. In other words, relationship. I tend to believe rather strongly that anyone who is looking at God and asking Him that question is definitely not hopelessly lost. As we look at Him and ask Him our status before Him, He says "My Son". | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 133 Registered: 4-2006 |
I read a good article about Hebrews 6:4-6 a while ago and in fact a good friend of mine was asking me today if I knew something about Hebrews 6:4-6 and I showed him this link: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/Portals/0/Repository/Is%20it%20possible%20for%20a%20saved%20person%20ever%20to%20be%20lost.pdf It helped me understand this section of the bible a bit better. Have fun! |
