| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 128 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hello everybody! I just stumbled on this site about SDA, it has some nice audio. http://www.mmoutreach.org/sda/sda_main.htm Jesus loves you! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 108 Registered: 6-2006  |
Thanks Mwh - I've been looking for some new audio to listen to. You must have been reading my mind. Or an angel showed you. Ha! Leigh Anne btw, in your picture you look just like Toby Mcguire from Spiderman. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1442 Registered: 10-2004  |
Mwh, thanks for the link! It looks like an interesting web site. I noticed one thing that is unfortunate. And that is that in the article by former Adventists Wallace and Carole Slattery, they still have held onto the Adventist teaching of Tritheism.  In fact their definition of the "Trinity" is one of the worst, most Tritheistic statements I've seen:
I think this really shows how people who are or have been in Adventism don't even realize they've had a different definition of the Trinity than Christianity teaches. To me, this underscores how important it is to let current/transitioning/former Adventists know that they have been taught Tritheism under the guise of the term "Trinity"--and to teach them what the Trinity really is. It is so deceptive how the SDAs use the term "Trinity" to teach anti-trinitarianism. At least with other cults--they are aware of the fact that they don't believe the Trinity. With Adventism, it's so frustrating! I am currently in the process of putting together a webpage about the SDA teaching on the Trinity, and this really reinforces for me how important it is to get this information out there! Well, there's my mini-rant. This is just so disturbing and frustrating to me right now... Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 05, 2006) | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thats realy nice to hear Jeremy, I look forward to see the website  One thing I noted is that when you have a tritheism view it makes sence that Jesus can be Michael, but when you realize that God realy is one it does not make much sence to say that God is Michael. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1443 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would also like to add that I would appreciate everyone's prayers as I put together the webpage and engage in spiritual battle. Thanks! Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2726 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jeremy, You have my prayers. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4426 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, this is great news! I also will be praying for you. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 263 Registered: 10-2002  |
Blessings, Jeremy, as you work on the site. I'm praying for clarity and the passion of God's heart for you & all involved, and all who will see it. In Him, Ramone | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello Jeremy! Well I read your post yesterday and I've been troubled ever since. All of you-all must know something I don't because, honestly, I don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. Trinity? Tritheism? The definition you quoted sounds perfectly good to me. Can some of you expound further, please? (Or direct me to where I can find a clear explanation - just take into consideration that I'm not a theologian. I don't do well with greek words and trying to deduce the meaning of the Scripture based on parts of speech.) Thanks! I'm Just Searching! Pegg | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2006 |
Pegg, I'll try. In the Christian church (not the SDA's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc) The Holy Trinity is explained as 3 in 1. One God, three persons. Think Personification, embodyment. Here's a simple illustration. Draw a triangle, and write the word God in the middle of it. Then at each corner write Father at one, then Son at the second, then Holy Spirit at the third. All are God, but you can write "is not" between each person. In other words, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Son, Etc. Then, make an arrow and write "is" from each one pointing to the middle, God. The people that Jeremy mentioned believe in Tritheism which means 3 gods. Since they distinguished the Trinity as 3 individuals, (separate people) that's wrong. This is how some SDA's get away with saying that Jesus is Michael. Side note,If Jesus is Michael then he's not God. If he's not God but told the priests and the diciples that he was, then that would make him a liar. Jeremy, you can correct me if I'm wrong, or missing something... Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1444 Registered: 10-2004 |
That's right, Leigh Anne. The Christian teaching is that God is one living being in three persons. The SDA Tritheism teaching is that "God"/"the Godhead" is three divine beings who are "one" in purpose, etc. The latter definition is also how the Mormons define the "Godhead." If the definition that I quoted earlier on this thread is correct, then we would have three gods who are only one in purpose. If the only thing that makes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit "one" is that they are united in purpose, then there is not one God at all--it's just a harmonious group of three gods. Pegg, the following thread (where Chris did a wonderful study of the Trinity) may be helpful to you (he also discussed Tritheism a bit and other heresies about the Trinity): http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/4030.html?1142563220 Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 07, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4429 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, your clarity about the sublte Adventist teaching of tritheism and the wealth of Ellen quotes you have shared re: this issue over the months has really clairified to me how true it is that I was TAUGHT the right WORDS about God, but I was NOT taught the correct definition of God. I was taught that these "three gods" united in purpose was the definition of "Trinity". The analogy I most often heard was that of a family:separate people, united in purpose (hopefully), sharing a name. I truly was not taught the fact that One God actually means ONE GOD. I understood that "God" was, as you put it once, the "office" of Godówhich is a Mormon belief. Over the past few months I've had conversations with several formers who were raised Adventist, and it's amazing how unanimous their assesment is: they also were taught the correct "Trinity" language, but they learned that the persons of God were separate. This separateness led to seeing Jesus as less than the Father (less "ultimate", less powerful, less "God"), and to a misperception of the Holy Spirit as being more of an "it" than a "Him". The Spirit was more a force or power than a person, and "it" emanated from the Father and perhaps also from Jesus. It hasn't been until fairly recently that I have begun to see how indivisible the Trinity is from Itself in Scripture. All three Persons participate together in all the works of God among mankind. Salvation, access to God, the new birth, eternal lifeóeverything is the work of the Triune God. It's amazing, reallyóRichard and I have recently talked about how our early understandings of God were really NOT of One God with three equally powerful, involved, eternal persons. Jesus was more of a "demi-god" who was full of love and pity, while the Father was unapproachable (except in theory through the blood of Christ). The Spirit was almost a force to be feared: being "filled with the Spirit" seemed awfully close to demon possessionóbut perhaps a positive kind of possession. For sure, demon possession could counterfeit being filled by the Spirit. Spiritual power was greatly to be feared. Oh, myóit is such a paradigm shiftósuch a RELIEFóto see God as One, and each member of the Trinity as equally eternal, loving, powerful, involved, etc. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2006 |
Colleen, I'm glad you wrote that. Wayne and I have never discussed it, so I assumed that he was taught the same thing I was. I'm learning something new every day here at FAF! It's funny because just this morning I found a book in my closet that I bought years ago called "The Truth about Jesus and the Trinity", written by a Pastor who has an anti-cult ministry. It was a coincidence, (or maybe not?) but I wanted to look at it to get some good illustrations for my kids in explaining the trinity to them. The whole concept (Right words, wrong definition)of what the SDA church teaches is so subtle! Also I think the thing that trips many people up is that the trinity is so huge it's hard to wrap your brain around in the first place. Then add to that the words "persons" and "beings" which can be interchangable in American English and it gets really hairy! Jeremy, thank you for the great link. It looks like Chris worked really hard on that and I'm excited about studying the texts. As usual, I know what my parents and Pastors taught me, but certainly need to study the scriptures for myself. Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2728 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, Count me as another former who was taught about the Trinity as you were. I now understand they are all God and that is all I understand. I am so glad it is not a prerequisite for salvation. As I always, God, you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1445 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is a very interesting website that I ran across awhile back, which teaches that there are "three Gods" (their words) because Ellen G. White says so!: http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/Booklets/id187.htm And on this page they make statements such as the following:
Wow! That whole page is amazing. But at that first link, they at least do a good job of proving that Ellen White teaches three gods! Unlike most Adventists, these folks (who think the SDA church has apostatized because they think they've adopted the Trinity) will admit that they believe there are three gods. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 07, 2006) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 114 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeremy, all I can think of when I read those statements are Batman, Superman and the Incredible Hulk! Now that's pure piffle. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 264 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow. Interesting that so many formers have experienced the same thing. I don't recall getting the tritheism teaching back at Sligo, Takoma Park, Shenandoah, Columbia Union and LaSierra (all between 1984-2001). I don't know exactly why I missed getting it. It might have something to do with the lack of reading Ellen White (myself and in our classes as well, I suppose). My former mission director in Osaka (1999-2000) gave me the most indoctrination to Ellen White, and it was then that I began to get the whiffs of traditional SDA anti-trinitarian teaching... namely the "Michael" thing, but it wasn't a clear focus, so I paid it little attention. He did once explain the Trinity to a Bible student (who was a homeless man we were ministering to) in a way that put the Trinity in a hierarchy---Father on top, Son under that, and Spirit at the bottom. However, the student was looking at the synoptic texts where Jesus said that whoever blasphemes the Spirit will not be forgiven, and that seemed to mess up the hierarchy, putting the Spirit on top instead. One question about the hierarchy idea, though, comes from the time when Jesus said "The Father is greater than I." Can anyone elaborate on that a little? Haha, funny idea: I don't know if this analogy would work, but what about the "three branches" of the American Government? (^_^) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 592 Registered: 8-2004  |
that is actually used by some SDAs to explain the Godhead - I don't remember at the moment which branch was likened to which 'member of the Godhead', but I do remember there was an article about it. In comparing 'the Godhead' to a company, one presentation put God the Father as the President, God the Son as Vice-President, and the Holy Spirit as Member in charge of distribution. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Everyone! Thank you all for jumping right in there. This is a big subject. (How could it not be???) I certainly know what you mean about the teaching of a heirarchy. That's always bothered me, because if they are all equal - one - then there cannot be a chain or command. I have always believed that they are one entity. Given that, I have never been able to figure out how one could "send" the other, but that is clearly stated in the Bible. Jesus speaks of doing the work that His Father gave Him to do. (Which seems like the Father is in charge.) Jesus speaks of sending the Comforter. (Here Jesus seems to be "the boss".) And that His leaving is a good thing, because unless He leaves the Comforter cannot come. (Never could figure what that was about!) Thank you for the link, Jeremy. I knew you'd come through. I haven't been able to study it yet, and I have to go to work now. You-all keep hashing this out, and I'll follow up later. Again, I thank you. Keeping On With The Search! Pegg | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 593 Registered: 8-2004 |
Yes, there are things said about God that make things seem hierarchical, then there are other things that make no sense if it is a 'Godhead' of multiple beings. Jesus spoke of his Father as the one that sent him, and He meant it. The angel talking to Joseph and to Mary told them Jesus was 'conceived of the Holy Ghost', and he meant it!
So who was Jesus' Father? Apparently God the Father, the Holy Ghost. And Jesus is Himself spoken of as the 'Everlasting Father'. If they were separate beings, this would not work! Just some thoughts, Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4435 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, great insight. The Trinity is a mystery that God simply hasn't fully revealed. We know they interact with each other, and we know we interact with them. Yet we know that in interacting with "them", we are interacting with the One True Godówho is singularly involved in every aspect of reality. When Jesus was on earth, He not only related to the Father as to part of Himself but also as to God, as a human does. He was both God and man. Further, "headship" as the Bible discusses it does not mean "heriarchy". For example, the husband is head of the wife, and Christ is the Head of the churchóbut husbands are not more important than wives. They are their husbands' bodiesójust as the church is Christ's body. The body cannot exist without a head, and the head without a body is incomplete. I see Jesus' reference to the Father as "greater than I" in a sense similar to Christ as head of the church and husbands as head of their wives. This is a discussion of a "Oneness" in which the parts have different functions but are equally part of the whole. Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello Mary and Colleen! This is very useful. Thank you! I never noticed that both the Father and the Holy Spirit were the father of Jesus. I really like the analogy to a body with different parts. That makes sense to me, because the different parts also have different functions. It helps me a lot with the heirarchy part. This is something I just ignored because I couldn't understand it. Thanks again! Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1446 Registered: 10-2004 |
All analogies fall short, however. For example, we must be careful when talking about "parts"--since God does not have parts. As explained here, God is a simple, not an aggregate, being. A couple other links here and here may also be helpful in this regard. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 08, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4439 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, thanks for the link. That's a helpful explanation. Thanks! Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello! Thanks Jeremy. I couldn't get the links to work. (Not you fault. My computer is having a bad hair day!) I've been fascinated with where this discussion would lead, but a little puzzled about why it should matter. This morning I was speaking with God as I walked on the beach, and I realized that I've always been confused about "who" I should be speaking to. (Jesus, God, Holy Spirit???) I usually address "God", and have sometimes wondered if I was disrespectful or if I had the right person. (I never spent much thought on this, actually - I figured They'd be quite capable of directing my requests to the responsible party.) Well this AM I realized that since it's just One God, this is a moot point. He will be happy to hear me call Him by any of His names! Thanks! I'm Still Searching! Pegg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4443 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pegg, that's actually wonderful! We really can address God as Godóand we can also address each Person of the Trinity. The wonderful thing is that we're told the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray (Romans 8:26-27), Jesus told us to address God as Father when we pray (the Lord's prayer), and the apostles often prayed to Jesus as Lord (Acts 1:24; 7:59;9:10-17; 1 Cor. 16:22), etc. God is God, and there seems to be no reason we can't address each person of the Godhead if we wish. But Jesus and also Paul emphasized that we are to understand the Father to be our Father, and we are to feel completely free to come to Him with requests and praise. Imagine: we have been adopted in His family, and God truly is our Father! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2284 Registered: 11-2002 |
I was 100% taught three seperate beings that make up one God, all three beings are in perfect harmony and agreement with each other. It was explained to me that since I am an only child it should be easy for me to understand. There is God the Father who like my dad is head over all, the head of the home. then my mom came along and as the dutiful wife she is in harmony with my dad as Jesus is to His Father. Lo and behold, along came me who tags along after my father and mother just as the Holy Spirit was left behind when Jesus ascended back to heaven. Now, I am not saying I believe this. This is how growing up SDA the trinity was explained to me. Completely, 100% three unique and seperate beings. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello All Of You! I really thank you guys for getting me started with this train of thought. It is quite an amazing journey. I have been discussing it with some folks over on CARM as well. I want to share the discussion with you. (I hope this is allowed.) Here's the link to the beginning of the thread. http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=426980&postcount=1 My post here is an outgrowth of the thoughts that you guys helped me with in our above conversations. http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=427240&postcount=3 Willy has the most touching take on Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels that are in heaven, neithr the Son, but the Father." This has troubled me for as long as I can remember. I have never been able to understand how Jesus would not know this (because that would mean that He did not know everything). I won't spoil Willy's response for you. Read it here: http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=429047&postcount=25 Again, thank you prodding my thought processes. I really appreciate you guys. This Is One Amazing Search! Pegg | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 598 Registered: 8-2004 |
Thank you Pegg for sharing those links. Willy's 'take' on Mark 13:32 is very touching. Blessings, Mary |
