| Author |
Message |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |     |
My experience was quite different from Jackob and Colleen. In my later SDA years I would be considered more of an evangelical SDA. I did have security in my salvation. I have since learned that that security is not commonplace among SDAs. Maybe it made a difference that I viewed EGW the same as other Christian writers. Despite the unbiblical teachings, deception, and cult-like atmosphere I found Jesus and had assurance of my salvation. Praise God!!! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4438
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 6:29 pm: | |
Jackob, I understand what your friend is saying. I believe the thing that is keeping him in fear of a potential "Sunday law" is actually the fact of not completely trusting Jesus for his future.
Fear and phobias never come from God. 1 John 4:18: "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."
Actually, I suspect that what your friend is facing is the conviction that he must give up all his fears and all he has believed in the past in exchange for saying yes to Jesus alone. He will not know whether or not he should "fear" a Sunday law unless he throws himself on the mercy of Jesus, willing to give up all he believes plays any part in his salvation aside from Jesus alone.
If he is trying to analyze the role of Ellen, evaluating the possibilities of what lies in the future as the basis of his indecision about her, then he is not establishing his faith in Jesus. He is establishing his faith in his own logic. Even if he says faith in Jesus is all that's necessary, he is still maintaining control over his own destiny by refusing to take the risk of abandoning everything but Jesus.
Unless he comes to the place where he is willing to stop analyzing and trying to figure out what "might happen", unless he comes to a place where he is willing to give up all he thinks he believes and allow Jesus alone to reveal Himself and His truth, he will never get away from his anxiety.
His problem, I believe, is not a lack of correct understanding. His problem is a refusal to act in total faith in Jesus and to give up all his mental "idols" and fears. It's a trust issue.
The fallacy of his thinking is that even if a Sunday law should be passed (unlikely as that seems), such an act has absolutely NO significance in terms of Ellen's validity as a prophet. One of the marks of a false prophet is that some of their prophcies do appear to come trueóand sometimes they cleverly counterfeit truth. He can't make his decision about Ellen's veracity based on whether or not a Sunday law is passed.
If I were talking to him, I would suggest that he pray that God teach him truth and give him the courage to act by faith in Jesus alone.
Colleen
|
Mtnviscacha
Registered user
Username: Mtnviscacha
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:59 am: | |
javagirl,
I'd like to comment on your post looking at it from another perspective.
I know of a christian group in which it is taught that emotions cannot be trusted/can lead a person astray. What this group does, is take an extreme position regarding human emotions on a scale and then 'funnels' ANY emotions into this extreme position.
This results in people within the group saying things like, "You shouldn't be so emotional" (this was actually said to me very soon after I became born again - I was overjoyed at being regenerated by the Holy Spirit and I could not hide it. And I'm am not usually an expressive person in public).
What is going here is a subtle form of control of a persons emotions so that adopt a group identity. Of course this, little by little, results in the group member repressing their natural emotions; and some may become "robots" (observations by persons looking in on the group and it's members).
Another result of this can be that a member who may begin to question some group behaviour/teaching, is regarded by the leader as having something wrong with them i.e. the problem is you, and your emotions are somehow getting in the way here.
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4447
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 6:03 pm: | |
Interesting point, mtnviscacha. Manipulation can take almost any form. I know that I feel the need continually to pray for God to protect me and those I love from deception.
Colleen
(Message edited by Colleentinker on August 10, 2006) |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 279
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 8:50 pm: | |
Good point, mtnviscacha. I will celebrate your regeneration! Im still celebrating mine, I guess we will be celebrating and worshipping re that throughtout our lifetime and into eternity! Welcome to the forum. If you havent already posted your story, I hope you will.
Thanks Colleen for reminding me to pray the prayer of protection from deception for my loved ones.
Lori
4excape@bellsouth.net |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 266
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:14 pm: | |
Jackob--
Wow, I really appreciated this paragraph you wrote:
quote:Even evangelical adventists have no assurance of salvation. How could they have? They are forced to adopt a liberal view of Ellen White, trying to forget the legalistic parts of her writings, and emphasizing her more gospel-sounding writings. After adopting a liberal view of inspiration, like "this part is the human Ellen White", the next step is to see the Bible as fallible. Now their faith in the Bible is diminished. Adopting a liberal, critical view of the inspiration of the Bible, they cannot have full assurance that what the Bible said about something is indeed truth. From their perspective, it can be only a human manifestation of the prophet, not the word of God, an error.
I had a similar idea when reading the recent Proclamation article about Adventism's problems with Biblical inerrancy. I don't think Adventism set out to knock down the Bible in order to support Ellen White, but rather their "errant Bible" view evolved over time as they had to cope with more and more obvious inconsistencies in Ellen White. They began with the premise that she was inspired, but that began to look less and less true and they were faced with a choice of whether to let "her" go (and everything they'd built with her and on her---their whole identity). So instead they held onto her, but the price they paid through rationalizing EGW was an increasingly condescending view of Scripture and God Himself.
It's a supreme irony because EGW herself (and her defenders) claimed that once you begin to doubt "the Testimonies", then it begins a chain reaction... first you abandon the Testimonies (EGW), then you abandon Scripture and then God. The irony is that this chain reaction has happened in Adventism in seeking to maintain belief in EGW's "Testimonies"!
Oh, Jackob, also---
About your friend who still holds onto the Sunday law thing... I've got a friend here in Osaka that is still thinking the very same way. I think there are many, actually, who have the Sunday law idea so firmly set in --entrenched by fear-- that they can't quite see normally and logically.
The thing that shattered that belief in me was understanding that if we're saved by keeping Sabbath, then we're saved by our good works and not by faith. Having read Romans I knew that we're saved by faith and not by our works, so the moment someone applied that Gospel to the Adventist end-times scenario, something had to give. I noticed that I had been holding onto the end-times Sabbath-Sunday idea as a kind of "insurance"... just in case belief in Jesus were not enough, just in case the Holy Spirit wouldn't guide me and keep me safe from deception. Just in case, I wanted to know which square to have my feet standing in, you know?
I think the best we can do with our friends is to share the Gospel, and in time the Sunday law fear/belief will collapse. Once you learn that you can worship on any day, it falls. Once you learn that it's wrong and not God if someone forces you to worship on any day, then the Sunday law belief falls. In studying about the New Covenant and the real Sabbath rest in Jesus, the whole foundation of the Sunday law belief falls, and even should a Sunday (or Saturday) law ever arise, you would have a deeper ability to discern what is of God and what is not.
I'll be praying for your friend and for your conversation with him.
Blessings and freedom in Jesus!
Ramone
|
Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 4:25 am: | |
To get back to the title of this thread, Agapetos posted this on another thread:
quote:In Christianity for the last several hundred years, the theoretical extreme has felt more "safe" and less risky. For example, this is why the Holy Spirit became a doctrine instead of the living, breathing Spirit that He was in the days of the apostles. The Spirit (and God Himself and the Son of God Himself) was so real to them that they were able to ask people, "Have you received the Spirit?" If someone were to ask that question today, it would betray them as being "charismatic". Our answer would likely be a theological one, saying "this is what the Spirit means to me" or attempting to correct the other's defintion of the Spirit (in other words, without the personal "to me" part).
Today we are well-accustomed to reading Paul only in a legal or theoretical sense. While the legality of what he wrote is absolutely true, the blunt statements he and the other apostles made about the Spirit (for example) show that they didn't seem to have the strict "legal/theoretical vs. experiential" dichotomy that characterizes the arguments our modern and rather polarized Church.
Many on the theoretical extreme are very fearful of anything experiential. Many on the experiential extreme have been badly burnt by theoretics or are addicted to certain experiences, and so are fearful for those reasons. Happily, the perfect love of Jesus Christ drives out these fears! Let the healing begin!
This is exactly what I experienced as I came out of Adventism. Even while still SDA I recognized I was way too left-brained in my approach. I came to understand that Adventism can't accept a centered approach to the Holy Spirit because if we learned to walk in the Spirit (emotionalism to SDA), they could no longer control our thought process and we may start questioning.
I've watched this forum for a long time now. I've hesitated to speak up because I've personally known people who did and were jumped on for where they were on this spectrum. While they no longer post here, I'm pleased to see there are others who have learned much as I have once I truly understood (and experienced) Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Aliza |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1455
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:17 am: | |
Welcome, Aliza. I hope you feel free to share your journey with us. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 267
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 7:53 am: | |
Hi Aliza,
Welcome! I'm glad you caught that comment... it's something real, and I can't quite explain it, but it just feels like there's something really wrong and lots and lots of us are missing it. I just want to fall at the feet of Jesus in the midst of all the confusion!
Please feel free to say more. You can email any of us by asking Colleen for email addresses (she's the supplier, haha). But really, it's wonderful to find people who've been down the same stretch of the road, so to speak.
In His arms,
Ramone |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 600
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 12:55 pm: | |
Yes, welcome Aliza. Hope to hear more from you!
Blessings,
Mary |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4454
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:18 pm: | |
Aliza, I'm so glad you've joined us! I'm also looking forward to hearing more from you. You are absolutely right about Adventism rejecting the true reality of the Holy Spirit because when He is at work, they can't control people.
I've come to believe another reason Adventism can't teach the truth about the Holy Spirit is that they don't accurately identify the human spirit. As long as they say the "spirit" is merely "breath", then they refuse to accept the reality that we have something other than our bodies (intellects) by which we can know God. The new birth then is stripped of meaning.
If "spirit" is "breath", then our being dead in sin is actually a metaphor, and sin is phsyicalósomething passed on in our gene pools. If sin is physical, then we should ideally be able to rid ourselves of it by discipline and self-denial. If sin is physical, then what actually comes alive at the new birth?--Uh--nothing. The "new birth" becomes a confusing metaphor for "accepting Jesus" (whatever that means to an Adventist), and it simply means we have the Holy Spirit's power (whatever we perceive Him to be) to help us keep the law so we can eliminate that geneticl predisposition to sin.
Further, if "spirit" is merely breath, then Jesus as a man had, as Ellen White said, no advantage over us. He, too, inherited Mary's "sinful flesh", and thus her genetic sinful inheritance. His sinlessness, then, was not intrinsicóit was acquired by his never breaking the law. Hence, He is our "example" rather than our "substitute".
If, on the other hand, the human "spirit" really is something made in the image of God ("God is spirit"-John 4:24), then we have a "component" that is separate from our fleshly body by which we can know God. This spirit is what died on the day Adam and Eve ate the fruit, and their legacy of sin is not so much genetic (although our gene pool is admittedly corrupt!) as spiritual. Our being born dead is literalówe are spiritually dead when we are conceived.
Jesus, on the other hand, was born livingóconceived by Life itselfóthe Holy Spirit. He never had to experience the "new birth" because never, from the moment of His conception, was He spiritually dead. He was sinless because He was intrinsically sinless. He was not merely an "overcomer" as Adventism essentially taught us. He was SINLESSóand that sinlessness is why he could keep the law.
So, we have to be born of the Spirit in order for our spirits to come alive. This indwelling doesn't happen in our minds per se: it happens in our spirits. This miracle makes us completely new. This miracle is why we can actually feel love for Jesus and can feel His presence and joy. This miracle is why, unlike those responses we all had at those old weeks of prayer, the joy and peace of knowing Jesus doesn't go away after the "new" wears off.
Today we had a family over for lunch. He teaches apologetics at Biola University and is a campus mentor for Campus Crusade for Christ on several secular campuses in our area. He is probably close to 50 years old. He grew up Catholic, and when he was in high school, he accepted Jesus through a Campus Crusade ministry at his school.
His sophomore year old college, he began reading the Bible regularly, and his cognitive dissonance increased to the point he began to have regular discussions of Catholic theology with his priest. His priest never quoted Scripture to him, and finally the cleric grew so angry with him that he ordered him to leave. This young man then officially left the Catholic church and immersed himself in a local Baptist congregation.
Over twenty-five years later, this man was telling of his conversion, of his discovery of the truth of the gospel, and of his priests anger and veiled blasphemyóand his eyes filled and nearly brimmed over. It was a moving moment for meóhere was this very left-brained man who makes a specialty of apologetics, and he was so close to deep emotion as he told of taking his stand, consciously, for Jesus.
It was quite amazing to me; "The joy never leaves!" he said. People on the cusp of leaving Adventism sometimes ask us, "Does this feeling of joy and peace ever go away?"
And Richard and I always answer, "NO, is never goes away. Bad times will happen; struggles will happenóbut that joy of knowing the personal presence of Jesus never leaves."
That continuing peace and joy is the effect of being indwelt and brought to life by the Holy Spirit. He is REALóand He is not an "it". He literally connects us to the eternal Triune God, and we become hidden with Christ in God.
Adventists have no conception of the true joy of Jesus because they deny the actual reality of their own spirits and hence the true work and reality of the Holy Spirit. In a very real way, they substitute the Sabbath for the Holy Spirit as God's seal on them. They have no means of living in freedom and new life and eternal joy when the seat of the Holy Spirit is filled with a created day.
So yesóthe Holy Spirit is real, and even people who lean toward a cognitive approach to their spiritual experience have, when they are born again, deep emotion and love and joy and power that an unbeliever cannot duplicate or experience. And they KNOW that their joy and peace and power are from the Spiritóand they literally worship God for bringing them to Himself.
God gifts some people toward more "feeling oriented" ministryóHe doesn't give any two people the same package of spiritual gifting. Some are more outwardly charismatic than othersóbut the deep aliveness that is the result of KNOWING GOD is consistent among them. Whenever people are alive in Christókeeping the cross of Jesus central and honoring His word as our source of knowing His willówe wil recognize the Holy Spirit in one another, even if He manifests Himself differently in each of us.
The consistency among us is the fruit of the Spiritólove, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, and self-control. These are the qualities that the Holy Spirit gives everyone who knows Jesus.
God is so good.
Colleen |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 268
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 7:49 am: | |
quote:In a very real way, they substitute the Sabbath for the Holy Spirit as God's seal on them. They have no means of living in freedom and new life and eternal joy when the seat of the Holy Spirit is filled with a created day.
My goodness. My Lord. It's true. Lord, teach us to pray and to be filled with Your heart, with how much You love them and long for them, and weeep to be with them. Send us into the gap, Lord, and pour Your breaking heart into us. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1452
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 11:30 am: | |
Colleen, you wrote:
quote:As long as they say the "spirit" is merely "breath", then they refuse to accept the reality that we have something other than our bodies (intellects) by which we can know God. The new birth then is stripped of meaning.
I found an amazing quote by EGW recently, posted on the Maritime SDA Online forum I believe. Here is what EGW wrote:
quote:"The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life. Whatever disturbs the circulation of the electric currents in the nervous system lessens the strength of the vital powers, and the result is a deadening of the sensibilities of the mind." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Two, page 347, paragraph 2.)
There you have it. That's where the Adventist teaching of materialism came from--Ellen.
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4456
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 11:44 am: | |
Wow, Jeremyóthanks so much! I remember reading or hearing that quote a very long time agoóbut I had forgotten it. She DOES actually say the Holy Spirit communicates through our nervous systemóand she further says God CAN'T communicate any other way.
The nerve! (No pun intended...)
Colleen |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 128
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:23 pm: | |
I'm discovering so much here - things I've never understood about my dear in-laws that are becoming so clear now.
There has been a bit of a problem at their church recently, not sure if it's with a lot of the congregation or just with our family who have been long time members. Anyway, a new associate pastor is on the scene and things are changing with the services. For one thing, the new guy has brought in some singers who sing praise music. I think some of the members have responded well to it but our family thinks it's not appropriate. (A few years ago my father in law, who was head elder, and the church council made a rule that no taped music be allowed because some of it had drums.) The congregation has also started applauding after special music, which is another aberration, according to my mother-in-law. Another thing they hate is the way this pastor and his wife dress at church. When we visited Saturday, the pastor had on a black button down with a light brown tweed jacket and black tie. I thought he looked perfectly appropriate, but there were complaints against that as well. Oh, and there was too much laughing during parts of the sermon as well.
In a conversation I had with my mil, she was actually in tears over all the changes. She said that these people are not respectful and church needs to be quiet and the people need to be reverent. What made me uncomfortable was all the nit-picking about it, and I expressed that Satan was probably glad to see that the focus from the worship was shifting away from Jesus. She didn't quite agree with me, because the bottom line was keeping the Sabbath holy. I guess holy to them is sitting still, singing funeral durges (that's REALLY what they sound like!) and don't show any emotion!
What I'm gathering from this thread in relation to my in-laws is that if their Sabbath is threatened then it's their Salvation that is being threatened as well.
Am I making sense, or do y'all see something different than what I'm seeing? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4457
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:51 pm: | |
I think you're seeing it accurately, Leigh Anne. And even more than just their salvation being threatened, their identity is being threatened. Disrespecting the Sabbath is sort of like disresepcting one's mother or grandmother. It's core to their identity.
Colleen
|
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:59 pm: | |
Grace, I had a former SDA friend a few years ago and they were basically driven out of the church because they did praise music and didn't teach the fundamentals. They taught grace. She said it was so sad one day to watch a woman wanting to raise her hands, but knew it would never be accepted so she had them raised as high as the pew only. She said it was really sad to know some people wouldn't worship as they wanted because of what others would think.
I too think the sabbath is the primary importance, even a god in some sense. It's as if they don't have the sabbath, then they aren't loyal to God and they aren't really his. My ex was always offended by such observations because when you say how it looks, they realize it is idolatry, but that doesn't change how it looks none the less. |
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan
Post Number: 89
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 7:20 pm: | |
The more things change, the more they remain the same. Leigh Anne, you could have been talking about the atmosphere and happenings in the SDA churches I attended ten years ago, in my neck of the woods.
It's the "spirit" behind the SDA (denomination)church. The same arguments, the same criticisms and the same depressing feeling overshadowing everything(the only THING)-the person, Jesus Christ.
If it were possible, the very elect would be deceived. Praise God, He protects His own.
|
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 281
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:42 pm: | |
Colleen,
Your post was helpful, especially the part about being "dead to sin". I know you have written more about this subject on the forum, but dont know where to look. The whole understanding of the body-mind-soul-spirit-breath thing is so critical in so many areas. Have you written an article re this in proclamation or elsewhere? I know I would love to see a chart of sorts comparing/contrasting the teaching from the Bible/Ellen on this subject, or even just the difference between soul, spirit, breath etc.
Charts like the ones from Clay Peck at Grace Place on his Covenant Studies (http://www.graceplace.org/default.aspx?pid=58) were what finally made clear to me the distinct difference between the old/new covenants.
Also thanks for highlighting that statement from Colleen, Ramone. "they have NO MEANS of living in freedom and new life...." The reality of that statment really overwhelmed me with saddness, thinking of those I love, and the cheap imitaion that robs them.
Lori
4excape@bellsouth.net |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4458
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:42 pm: | |
Hi, Lorióthere is an article in Proclamation about the human spirit not being merely breath in the September/October issue of Proclamation. You can read it here:http://formeradvent.temp.powweb.com/Proclamation2004_SepOct.pdf
SorryóI have no charts. I do believe, however, that this issue is truly the foundational heresy of Adventism. While the IJ and the Sabbath are unbiblical and rob us of our security, the teaching that we do not have spirits other than mere breath is the heresy that warps the Adventist understanding of the nature of man, the nature of sin, and the nature of Christ. The implications of not understanding that Jesus was inherently born living and we are inherently born dead is HUGE.
Adventists truly do not know or understand the real Biblical Jesus. Even when they are drawn to Him and desire to follow Him, they are not clear on Who He really is. These beliefs hold people in great bondage.
Bmorgan, you're right about the spirit behind the church.
Colleen |
Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:48 am: | |
Your reminder of those worship wars in church brings back a flood of painful memories. Youíre so right, Leigh Anne, about the deadness in so many SDA services. But I know for me it was because I truly didnít even grasp what worshipping and praising God was all about. Once God starting pulling me out of Adventism and the joy of Jesus took over I could accept worship styles that before had seemed so heretical. As I traveled around to various churches my discernment started to grow in the ability to understand which congregations were really worshipping and which ones were merely entertaining. In other words, you can have two apparently identical churches with the exact same style and songs (regardless of what style) and one is truly Spirit-filled worship and the other is just sort of dead entertainment.
Have any of you ever visited churches where the bulletin has something similar to this in it?
HOW SHOULD WE WORSHIP GOD?
"...God is a spirit, and they that worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and truth." (John 4:23-24; Psalm 96:9)
WHY DO WE STAND TO SING?
"And the Levites...of the children of the Korhites, stood up to praise the Lord God of Israel with a loud voice on high" (II Chronicles 20:19)
WHY DO WE CLAP OUR HANDS?
"O Clap your hands all ye people; shout unto God with a voice o f triumph." (Psalm 47:1)
WHY DO WE LIFT OUR HANDS?
"Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the Lord." (Psalm 134:2; 63:4; I Timothy 2:8)
WHY DO WE HAVE AUDIBLE PRAISE UNTO GOD?
"Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless His holy name." (Psalm 103:1; Revelation 19:1-6).
WHY ARE MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS A PART OF THE WORSHIP SERVICE?
"Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet...with the psaltry and harp...with the timbrel and dance...with stringed instruments and organs...upon the loud cymbals." (Psalm 150:3-5; Revelation 14:2)
WHY DO WE SING CHORUSES AS WELL AS HYMNS?
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:18-19)
|
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 129
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:40 am: | |
Aliza, I LOVE those passages! Thank you. I knew there was a "clap your hands" in the bible somewhere, but I hadn't searched for it yet. This issue was so frustrating as it took up a lot of time over the weekend in our family. I mentioned to my sister-in-law the verses about David dancing in his "underwear" and of course, she hollered back "HE WASN'T IN CHURCH!" So then I asked "Okay, so what kind of guidelines does the New Testament have for worship services?" and no one would answer me.
Being that I'm not an SDA, I don't get a lot of respect when we have conversations like that.
I've grown up in a very joyful Lutheran church. Our organist has always played our hymns with a lot of emotion and we all sing out loud. It's a spirit filled church, however one summer we had a HUGE african-american choir visit us from another church in town. (Mind you, at the time we were mostly an older congregation made up of stubborn Norwegians) Anyway this choir was loud and proud! Their harmonies were unbelievable. They even had some of our stodgiest members standing and clapping along with the music. It was emotional, and spirit filled and an incredible experience! All I could think of was - "Now THEY know how to worship!"
When I sat in the SDA church last Saturday, it was the most depressing service. Then top it off with the grumbling and griping of my family - Satan was probably just laughing his head off. It makes me so sad and sick, yet these people, who I love, think that they're the only ones who know how to worship God correctly.
My prayers have been in overdrive for them. I just wish so much that they would come to know Christ's joy.
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4461
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:36 pm: | |
Aliza, you are so right when you say, "In other words, you can have two apparently identical churches with the exact same style and songs (regardless of what style) and one is truly Spirit-filled worship and the other is just sort of dead entertainment. " That is SO TRUE!
It's not the musicóit's whether or not people are born again and truly worshiping God. Sometimes in church I think about the possibility, when the singing is particularly intense and moving, that even angels join in worshiping Jesus when we are worshiping. And you're rightóthe Bible is absolutely clear that worship is not static; we are to praise God with our whole selves!
I'll never forget the time a few years back when we were at a Sunday night praise service, and our older son (who was 20-ish) was a few rows ahead of us with some of his college-age buddies. I watched Roy raising his hands and singing with all his soul to Godóand I was reduced to tears. Sometimes Richard and I discuss how our lives would have been different if we had known Jesus at an early age like our sons do.
Leigh AnneóI so know what you're going through re: those discussions. Adventists really believe they have "special knowledge" about music and worship. I can't explain why, exactlyóbut they pride themselves on their colleges' music degrees, their pipe organs, choirs, and intimate knowledge of classical music. Having graduated with a music degree from an Adventist college, I know exactly what attitude I'm talking about!
I know that as an Adventist, I sometimes wondered why Adventistsóthe REALLY TRUE churchóshared a passion for classical music performance with the Mormons. No other church group made such a big deal out of music performance! I remember being taught that Lucifer was the choir director in heaven, and that he sang four-part harmony himself. Ellen actually wrote that.
(In SDA schools, the choirs and bands were the recruiting tools instead of the sports teams. Today some SDA schools actually do have competitive sports and belong to local leagues, but that is a fairly new phenomenon in Adventism since Ellen White spoke against competitive sports.)
Colleen |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 293
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 3:45 am: | |
For me the music performance was a place where I felt that my entire being was involved, thoughts and feelings. After listening to many dull sermons, it was refreshing to sing in choir or have some repetitions. In singig you have permission to be yourself, without mask. In the rest of the service you were supposed to put your happy Sabbath face even if you were not happy and listened to dull sermons, which in no way maked a difference in your life.
A friend of mine said: "If they will disfellowship me sometime I'll survive, but if they will kick me out from the choir, I cannot survive!" |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 271
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 4:42 am: | |
My "worship" awakening happened one evening when I was visiting a youth coffee-shop style worship at an AOG church in California. I had just begun learning of the reality of the Holy Spirit, and had already had the Lord "break" off the Sabbath & SDA "lock" (so to speak), so I was really open to seeking the Lord, but still in the process of shedding a lot of my embarassment and the effects of being raised in unexpressive legalism.
Worship began and people were lifting hands. Some were kneeling. Some were on the floor. A few were laying down. My youth pastor friend (non-denominational reformed) came with me, and when the worship started and he began seeking God, he began to raise his hands and put his head down, but he had to disappear. I don't know what corner he went into, but he went to go seek God.
As I looked at the other people worshiping, I naturally wondered "what raising my hands would do"... you know? Like wondering if I'd experience God more if I did that, or something like that. I was trying to mentally analyze it or process it (since I'd read the Scriptures in the Psalms about this kind of thing---even as an Adventist, I wasn't worried about it being unbiblical). Suddenly as I looked around, it began to dawn on me that they weren't thinking the same thing I was. And more than that, they weren't caring what the people around them thought. That made me suddenly start *seeking God*! It all began to change.  |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 6:39 pm: | |
Hi Aliza!
I have seen those types of descriptions in bulletins before The first time I went to one of those type of churches I was still an SDA although I had been recently baptized in the Holy Spirit. It was so different from a SDA church. The SDA church I had attended previous to that was conservative and I ended up skipping out on the sanctuary service after teaching SS because I didn't want to hear EGW or the tenants of SDAism preached. It was like stepping into a totally new world and I saw people who opened up their hearts before God. As a SDA and a newbie to that it was like "will I stick out, is everyone staring at me?" But then you realize that it isn't about you, it is about God and people are not staring at you and expecting you to raise your hands or clap or anything because they are praising and worshiping God. I opened my SDA eyes slightly when I learned about the baptism of the Spirit and God opened them up WIDE after that and I was never the same. I remember a turning point for me was hearing someone pray. Here I was, an SDA, who knew the truth about the Bible and I heard a believer pray from his heart and praise and worship God in his prayer. I was left with my mouth open and it started to sink in that SDAs may not know everything. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 294
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:34 am: | |
Sentiments follow the thougths, and our heart is praising God after we experience His grace, His forgiveness, His love for us. In adventism these were not accesible because adventism is opposed to the marvelous grace of God, especially by the investigative judgment, and the obligation to keep the Sabbath in order to be right with God.
These false doctrines which picture a false view of God are the source of a lot of negative sentimens, especially fear of God, and a lot of doubts about His love for us, His power and presence in need. in the background was always the thought "Am I holy enough to please God? Am I pleasing Him? Am I in His favour?" In this way you are never sure if your behaviour pleases God or not, if He is for you or against you because of some fault of yours.
Until someone get rid of investigative judgment, and the Old Covenant mentality, he cannot change the negative feelings. The feelings are changing when someone seeks God in His Word, His truth will crush the lies of investigative judgment and Old Covenant, and after his mind and reason no longer believes this lies, and he starts believing the truths of the gospel, the sovereign grace of God, the complete forgiveness, after he is brought to the place to believe the objective truth of who God is, the sentiments will change, will follow his mind.
Some churches in adventism experience new worship styles, but because the sentiments are not rooted in objective truth, they cannot rejoice in God and in His grace. Sentiments which are not rooted in truth pass away quickly, and the person is left without the true God.
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4471
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 2:53 pm: | |
Jackob, I completely agree with you. My experience parallels yours. Until I knew the REAL gospel and the truth about Jesus and His finished redmption, I couldn't actually praise God with a joyful heart. I had moments of aweóespecially during musical events and performancesóand even a sense of God's majesty, but the sense of His personal presence was almost nonexistent.
Only knowing the the real Jesus of the Bible and His gospel makes it possible to experience real love for Him.
Colleen |
|
