| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 122 Registered: 4-2006  |
Today I and some other Christians and my SDA friend was gathering in the park to pray, sing and read the word. My SDA friend spoke to us about the state of the dead it was a bit horrible, at first she realy liked to rush things so we did not get very much time to pray or sing praises to Jesus  .. afterwards she walked us through a lot of prooftexting and could not belive that we belived in Hell and going to be with the Lord after death. Anyways one thing I noticed and a thing I do not have very clear in my mind is the Death of Lazarus as told about in John 11. 1. My SDA friend was pointing out that he did not speak about what happened to him while he was dead, like was he in heaven or hell. 2. in verse 4 it says: When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." So did Lazarus die at all? What are your experiences with The Death of Lazarus in connection with SDA and in general? I am saved, thanks Lord Jesus! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1446 Registered: 7-2003 |
May I speak plainly? I think arguing these points will cause you to lose your sanity. I know you're concerned for your friend, but may I say as someone said to me and I ignored, there is low hanging fruit on the tree, why go for the piece at the top? I suppose it's good for someone to debate these things, but really, it is just points of division. And as someone who spent almost 7 years trying to 'convince' an SDA of their 'errors', give it up. I know that sounds negative, I know it sounds harsh, but missionary dating is never a good thing...be they sda or just a plain non-believer. If you can fellowship with her, great, but if she's not really interested in your perspective, but just interested in convincing you why she's right, you'll end up putting a lot of time and energy into something that will leave you frustrated and maybe heart broken in the end. Do not do what I did. I say that with all empathy, compassion and love. I have had my whole world destroyed because of my quest to 'save' my sda 'friend' from his religion. In the end, it is costing me a huge chunk of my son's life. I'm sure someone can probably answer your question about Lazarus, but the fact the Bible is silent on what he did or didn't say does not mean he did or didn't say anything. The miracle was the resurrection, not what happened while he was away. Nothing is recorded because God didn't want us to focus there, but on the resurrection. THAT is the important event.... My $.12 (inflation, you know), for what it's worth. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 566 Registered: 1-2003  |
Wow has inflation really been that bad. from $.02 to $.12 is 600%.  In Him, Richard rtruitt@mac.com As I think of it the inflation of my LOVE for HIM is much more than 600%. Thank you GOD for all you have done for me. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 123 Registered: 4-2006 |
You are right. We did also point out to her that he went away right after the resurection and that there is no record of what he might have seen. Also I think he probably was not dead in the sence of seperated from God, but phisical dead he was. You are right, I cant change her views, and I think as well that she is not that interested in understanding my view. Anyways while i'm around ill invite her to Christian gatherings and I leave it to God to convince her of truth. While speaking with her about SDA I focus on EGW and 1844 since these topics only are thought in SDA. I have begun unloading her on more Christians, so we can share "the burden" of witnessing to her. Also I found that the best thing I can do for her is to pray for her. And that is what I do. I'm feeding her with some books, "The Cultic Doctrine of SDA", "Sabbath in Christ" and "White Out". I hope she reads them, and I hope she someday will read them with eyes wide opened. But now I think its quite hard for her, I think she deep down feels treathened and scared that what she now belives might be a big lie. Anyways, please pray for her and pray for me that the Lord may put the right words on my thounge to witness to her. PS I know its hard to talk with anyone from a sect and that it takes up a lot of ressources, but I think it is worth it, I have learned so much talking to her and comparing the SDA religion with Christianity, I feel I'm growing. Now I can teach other Christians about the SDA religion so they wont be lured into it and so they can witness to SDA members as well. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1447 Registered: 7-2003 |
I admire your determination as long as you're guarding your heart as well. I gave Bryant all those books and he resented me and found 'contra' books to prove why those authors were bad, attacking their character rather than looking at the content of the books. If she feels highly threatened, she might start that way. I don't know that he ever read the books through. I know he claimed to read cultic doctrine, but he just flat didn't believe it. cold heart. You are right about what you are learning. Just be careful. I don't want you to end up hoping for something that is ... unrealistic in the end. I know I kept hoping God would open his eyes, but it never happened. Living with God's sovereign choices are hard some times. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 105 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Mwh, I know just how you feel. I mentioned the death of Lazarus once to my husband. It was a story that I'd never studied and either didn't know at all or couldn't remember it. Anyway we were in bed one night and I was reading my bible and found it. I said, "Honey, listen to this" and read it to him. My husband dismissed it as a parable, but my question was, "Why would Jesus make up a fairytale about that?" In other words, why would he talk about the busom of Abraham if it wasn't a real place? Or, why would he mislead someone into believing that a person could be conscious in the after life? My husband gave me the usual skeptical head shake "no". I love my husband so much. And I thank God for this forum. What I've learned from all of you is that Yes, I can't convince anyone to convert out of a cult, but I can pray for them. For at least 17 years I hoped beyond hope that my boyfriend/husband would come to church and sit near me and worship with me on Sundays. I prayed and God knew the desire of my heart. Thankfully 3 years ago my husband started to come with me. He comes almost every week with me now, although he still considers himself SDA. So I have hope! I pray that God would soften my love's heart and open his eyes to God's word. That he and all his family would let go of EGW's false prophecies and embrace Jesus's beautiful promises. I pray that God would protect my babies from SDAism and that that someday my husband and I will be equally yoked. Then I stop and thank God for all the wonderful things he'll be doing in our lives. I have faith!! Mwh, have faith, and love on your friend. She'll see Jesus in you if you give it up to him. Melissa, I will certainly pray for you too. I'm sorry you're going through such a lousy time in your life. You are so precious to God and I know he's got some wonderful things planned for you too. Love to you all, Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1439 Registered: 10-2004  |
Mwh, The argument about the Bible not recording Lazarus as saying anything about experiencing heaven (he actually went to Abraham's Bosom in Hades) while he was dead, is a very common argument by SDAs. But it just doesn't make sense, considering the fact that the Bible nowhere records any words of Lazarus at all. I'm sure Lazarus talked with people after he was raised from the dead--but the Bible just does not record anything he said. But anyway, Jesus made it clear to Martha in John 11:26 that those who believe in Him will never die. Also, in John 12:1 it says that Lazarus was "raised from the dead." And in Luke 16:19-31, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (a different Lazarus), Jesus defines "rising from the dead" as rising from Hades. As for John 11:4, I think Jesus is mainly saying that the sickness would not end in death, because Jesus was going to raise Him from the dead. Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2271 Registered: 11-2002 |
The few SDA's I have mentioned the story to have told me it is a parable. However, in each of the other parables Jesus uses the generic terms such as, 'the rich man' or 'the 10 virgins'. In the story of Lazarus Jesus uses the proper noun of his given name which leads me to the conclusion it is a story about a real man and a real event. Not a parable to get a point across. Besides, Jesus never told an untruth in the parables. They were parables, stories to get a particular point across. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 475 Registered: 2-2001 |
Susan I agree that Jesus did not make up fantacies in His parables. You really could loose a sheep if you were a shepard, and you really could grow grapes and prune them. Why is it so hard for us to belive there is a Hades and so easy to belive there is a Heaven? Both places we can't see, hear or taste right now, but if Jesus says they are there---then they are there. In Him V | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1440 Registered: 10-2004 |
Great points, Susan and Violet! Jeremy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 284 Registered: 7-2005  |
We can debate for hours with adventists if Lazarus from Luke 16 (by the way, we started with Lazarus from John 11, brother of Maria and Martha)was real or not. Suppose the story is fiction. But if Jesus believed in soul sleep, and in annihilation, why He used a story with people talking after death? Why use phrases like Mark 9:48 "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched", when you really believe in a short and limited punishment? This will confuse the hearers, and the Bible will be guilty of leaving a false impression. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4420 Registered: 12-2003  |
Good points, Jackobówe started with one Lazarus and ended with another. I realized a few years ago that the reason I always understood the Lazarus parable to be "just a parable" and not "real" was that I had been so steeped in understanding that Ellen didn't always mean what she saidóthat I believed Jesus also could use "fiction" to make a point that was different from the obvious. Jesus doesn't trick us. He doesn't tell us an untruth in order to teach a truthócontrary to what Ellen said about God. She claimed that God deliberately kept people from seeing the "mistake" in William Miller's first wrong date so they would get ready to meet Him, In other words, the ends justified the means. Deceptionóeven on God's partóis excusable if it serves a good purpose. I see now that her implications are nothing short of blasphemy. God cannot lie; He would never deceive us to make a point. He is not a trickster. That Lazarus parable cannot be teaching us something opposed to reality, or Jesus would not have used it. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 106 Registered: 6-2006 |
Colleen, you and everyone else make such a good point, and I wish I could've expressed myself better when I had this conversation with my husband. When he said "It's just a parable" I wish at the time I would not have asked "Why would Jesus make that up?" to "Jesus would never have made something up". I know it probably wouldn't have changed my husband's mind, but at least I would've been more definate with my answer! I'm learning that in dealing with this issue I need to relay my beliefs more confidantly. Otherwise, I don't sound very convincing which in turn gives my husband every reason to believe that I'm wrong. Just an observation - I'm constantly amazed how organized and concentrated the SDA church is. When I hear some of the things you 'formers' have struggled with or used to believe, I feel almost like you all grew up in my husband's family! Sorry to get off the subject... Leigh Anne | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2273 Registered: 11-2002 |
Another thing that comes to my mind is when Paul is obsessing about if he'd rather be dead and be with Jesus or stay alive and share the gosple. Well, he decides to stay alive but for him to be contimplating that indicates to me that Paul must have believed upon his death he'd be with Jesus. I don't remember the text. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4424 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, the text is Philippians 1:22-23. Also 2 Cor 5:1-10 discusses our spirits leaving our "mortal tents" at death. Leigh Anneóit's also interesting to hear how Adventism looks from your persepctive. You're rightóAdventism really is organized and, even despite regional differences, it is highly consistent. I believe the standardized school and Sabbath school curricula play a huge role in this consistency. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 109 Registered: 6-2006 |
Colleen, you're absolutely right. It seems that it's all standardized. Add to that surrounding one's self with SDA books, music, periodicals, church people and business relations. It's like insulation! Bless his heart, my FIL is that person. I'm praying like crazy for him. Thanks for all your encouragement. Leigh Anne | ||
| Peperpat Registered user Username: Peperpat Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2006 |
Leigh Anne, I feel as you do, that I dont sound very confident or convincing when I answer the SDA positions! And then my memory will fail me when I try to remember where a text is from ! My dear son said he is starting to memorize scripture now so he will be able to evangelize for the sda....its funny, some things I know are true, but cant always find the 'written proof' to back it up. Then, later, I think 'Why didn't I say this or that?'. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will guide us all in what we should say. I am so grateful to have found this forum where I can learn about all of your journeys. Perhaps one day my son will visit here as well. -Patti | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1055 Registered: 7-2004 |
Over on CARM we were discussing the relationship between death and the IJ, and ended up talking about Lazarus. As a result I went to Wikapedia and looked up Lazarus of Bethany. There is some early history that Lazarus became the first Bishop of Kittim. Here is the post I made at CARM: Ah, here is something a bit more substantial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus...Lazarus_legend The only problem is that it reads almost like some Knights of the Round Table story than a story from first century Palestine. (Message edited by belvalew on August 08, 2006) | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1056 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sorry, don't know what went wrong with that link. It works on CARM but something must have been lost in translation. Here is the actual link one more time, if you are interested in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus#The_developed_Lazarus_legend | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2278 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belva, It's WONDERFUL to hear from you. It's been awhile. I hope you have been doing good. |
