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Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 85
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 8:32 pm: |     |
Jeremy,
I don't question the quote, it is the wording that is a problem...'Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed on the head of the scapegoat...'
Sins are confessed to Christ. That is the shocker of the quote for me. Either she is referring to Christ as the scapegoat (because the sins are to be confessed on the head of the scapegoat), or, based on the belief that the scapegoat is Satan, they are to confess their sins on Satan's head.
Aside from all the huge implications of 'Satan as scapegoat', it is just hard to fathom that she meant that people were to confess their sins on the head of Satan.
This is the issue that SDAs cannot seem to see as the natural result of the 'Satan as scapegoat' doctrine. Ultimately, you could say that Satan (at least in a sense) becomes our savior...a heretical idea to be sure.
InSearchOf |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1459
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 9:37 pm: | |
InSearchOf,
Actually, Ellen is not talking about us confessing our sins. She is referring to Leviticus 16:21 (KJV): "And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:"
She used the terminology about "confessing" sins upon the head of the scapegoat several times in her writings, to refer to the sins being laid on Satan.
So Ellen was saying to "pray much that your sins may be confessed" (by Jesus as High Priest) upon the head of the scapegoat (Satan).
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on August 19, 2006) |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 296
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 2:09 am: | |
I completely agree with Jeremy that this doctrine does not get enough attention and refutation. It will do a lot to expose the heart of adventism. If adventists can be led to see clearly the fact that Satan is actually the one who made atonement for them and not Jesus, they will be repulsed by this doctrine, and start their journey out. This may be a tremendous help for them.
Perhaps the little attention payed to this doctrine was that many former adventists have not been succesfull in trying to persuade their adventists friends about it. I must recognize that even if I rejected the IJ, I believed that Satan may be the scapegoat of the Day of Atonement
Like Jeremy I had read the article from truthorfables, but saw it as attacking a straw man. At that time I saw no wrong in the scapegoat teaching, because from what I read in Ellen White and other adventists books, the sins recorderd in the books of heaven are removed by Jesus' blood, His blood making a "final atonement" for them, erasing them, blotting them out.
What removed the blindess from my eyes was a little booklet located on Mark Martin's site www.sdaoutreach.org, written by WW Fletcher, entitled "A Reply to Articles Published in the 'Signs of Times'". I'll heartily recommend this booklet in PDF format to all, formers and adventists alike.
What I saw reading this booklet was that, in the adventist perspective, even after sins are blotted out from the books of heaven by the so called final atonement made by the blood of Jesus, the sins are still not canceled! They are only transfered to the scapegoat, Satan, in the same way as they were first transfered from the sinner to the sanctuary. Jesus' blood functions only as a vehicle carrying the sins, first from the sinner to the sanctuary, next from the sanctuary to the scapegoat. The sins dissapear only after the scapegoat dies, his death cancels the sins, expiates them.
Fletcher quotes what for me was an eye opener statement from Ellen White, was like I never saw it:
quote:Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. PP p. 355
Wonderful Ellen White quote, is't it? People are not "freed from the burden of their sins" until Satan carries them. They are not make free by Jesus' blood, even after 1844, even in the great day of atonement, as adventists are proud to believe. Only Satan death expiates the sins, not Jesus' death.
Fletcher mentiones how he was troubled by this teaching, being perfectly aware that Ellen White made other declarations that sounded more evangelical. But, and this is a hope and encouragement for all of us who are waiting to see our friends free from under the burden of adventism, Flecther said
quote:Deep in my heart there burned the conviction that the blood of Christ effectually expiated the sin of our lost race the very moment it was shed.
Praise God for His sovereing work in our heart, awakening us to His marvelous grace. Without this work, we will be still dead in our sins. Praise Him, the One who called us from darkness to light.
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Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 86
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 5:06 pm: | |
I, like most of you, never saw the fallacy of this doctrine until I had begun to move away from Adventism. I never thought about the reality (at least from the SDA perspective) that Satan actually plays a part in atoning for my sins.
Thank God that whole idea has been put on the trash heap where it belongs!
ISO |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 142
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 6:15 pm: | |
Brian, that's my brother-in-law, Clayton. He's married to my husband's sister. He's a pretty intense guy. We only see him maybe once a year, and when we do see him, he sits and preaches about the sanctuary and the scapegoat rubbish. He did that the other night and I had to leave the room, I was getting so angry. Another thing he does is tell us when Jesus is going to come back. It's always a sabbath, but of course the date keeps changing. He was sure it would be the year 2000!
Ugh. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2741
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 7:10 pm: | |
When I read about the replica of the sanctuary, I thought, gee, it would be nice if a replica was made of the Holy City as described in Revelation. The streets and walls of gold, a pearl for each gate(12 of them), 12 different gemstones for the foundation. That would and does excite me.
Grace_alone, I will pray for your BIL and he even sets dates for Jesus to return, even when the Bible says, no one, but the Father knows the day or the hour.
God is so awesome.
Diana |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 529
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 7:10 pm: | |
So there's still SDA date-setters around in the mainstream part of the church? Interesting. Wonder what he'd say if you suggested it would be just like Jesus to return on Sunday. Afterall, He was resurrected on Sunday and gave the Holy Spirit at Pentecost on Sunday. Besides, wouldn't the last day on earth with all the earthquakes, separating the sheep from the goats, and destroying those not found in the Book of Life all constitute a pretty heavy "work" day? |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 530
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 7:12 pm: | |
What a cool idea, Diana! |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 144
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 7:57 pm: | |
Raven, Ha! You're a funny one. I thought if you're going to guess when Jesus is coming why not figure he'd come back on a Sunday like when he appeared to all the believers after he had risen from the dead? I'm guessing that Clayton believes that Jesus is an SDA too...
Diana, thanks for the the prayers. I've been praying for him too, even as he burns me up!
You're a true prayer warrior. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 8:04 pm: | |
Jackob,
Thanks for sharing that quote from EGW. It is very incriminating.
Leigh Anne, the traditional SDA story is that the journey to heaven will take seven days, with a Sabbath rest-stop on another planet, visiting with the "unfallen beings" that EGW loved to talk about, who are currently picking fruit for the saints in anticipation of that day. See this thread for more on that. ;-)
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on August 20, 2006) |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 145
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 8:55 pm: | |
Jeremy,
Thanks for the link. That was interesting! I've never heard that one before. I wonder if that is something my in-laws have heard and believe. I'd ask, but I don't want an SDA sermon.
I'm in a weird place in my life right now where I'm learning so much about the SDA church and want to help my husband (and protect our kids). However we are both fairly passive people and HATE to fight or cause sadness for each other. If I mention something strange I read about EGW, he gets very defensive. This is what is hard - he stopped living the SDA lifestyle completely (he even started eating pork recently) but in talking to him about SDAtism it's clear that he's emotionally and intellectually (not sure that's the right word) connected to the church. It's confusing because as a result he sends me mixed messages.
When I recently told him that I didn't believe in the IJ, he got very upset and said "of course it's true. Satan is the scapegoat and has to pay for all our sins!" He could've been speaking in Swahili to me because I didn't understand a word he said!
And then he did one thing that shocked me just about a week ago. We were out with our kids and they asked me about someone who died. I replied that as Christians we're not afraid of death. My husband continued, although in not a very convincing voice, that when you die you get to be with Jesus. He made eye-contact with me at that point, and then changed the subject.
I'm hoping hoping hoping that the great SDA giant in his life is starting to shrink.
So I continue to pray. This is a job for Jesus, my Super-Hero!
 Leigh Anne
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4481
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 11:33 pm: | |
Oh, Leigh Anneófor your husband to say that to your children is HUGE! He has no idea of the spiritual bondage he is inóbut God is chipping away at it. We'll keep praying.
Thanks for that EGW quote, Jeremy. Just last night I told my in-laws that Adventists believe Satan ultimately bears their sins, and that the sins of those who will be saved are carried into heaven by Jesus' blood and thus defile it until they are placed on Satan. They argued that Jesus atones for our sins and Satan is merely punished for themóa not-so-clever obfuscationóbut that EGW quote certainly supports the unusally-unaknowledged fact that Satan ultimately bears our sins, and we're not free of our sins until Satan has them on himself.
Colleen |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 146
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 1:16 pm: | |
Thanks Colleen! I thought it was huge, but I didn't want to call attention to it. He's heard me tell our kids about going to Heaven, but that was the first time he actually said it with his own mouth and in his own words.
By the way, sorry to get off the subject, but I recently listened to your testimony from sdaoutreach. It was so fun to hear your voice and I really appreciated what you said.
Leigh Anne |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2301
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 6:24 pm: | |
I was raised SDA. I remember as a child being taught that at the very end of this age the sins of everyone throughout history will be placed on satan, our scapegoat before satan is finily distroyed forever. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 612
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:55 am: | |
Once in the SDARM's missionary school, a group of us students were set to work on the Scapegoat doctrine. There were, if I recall correctly, four of us who decided to work together on this particular topic so we divided the study materials four ways - one student to take up 'logic and reason', one the Bible, one Early Adventist authors, and me to EGW.
We set to work prayerfully and worked hard to come to a synthesis between the four 'sources'. The teacher had given us Andreasen's book on the Sanctuary as a starting point and we immediately came to a frustrating disagreement with Andreasen. He seemed to be weakening the faith, we felt, because he seemed to say (again if I recall correctly, it's been a few years) that Jesus blood somehow made sin 'disappear'. Almost, he seemed to say, our salvation was accomplished at the cross! That would make the 'heavenly sanctuary' construct, as viewed by SDAs, superfluous!
That could not be right if Jesus was taking our sins with him to the heavenly sanctuary! If His blood made our sins disappear, then they would be gone! That preposterous (to us) idea posed a thorny problem to our minds because obviously sin is still in existence currently, not to mention the superfluity already noticed.
Generally we were expected to study at topic the day it was assigned and present our findings the next day. Because of this quandary though, we asked for more time and were kindly given it (we had a very 'patient creditor' for a teacher!).
What I found in Ellen White seemed very clear. By the death and application of the blood of Jesus, all our confessed sins were removed from us, kind of like a dissolving solution that takes grease out of clothes but then has it suspended in the cleaning fluid. There was even a somewhat comforting argument to be made that sins done in ignorance were also removed - if you took into account the morning and evening sacrifice - though there was always the niggling fear that perhaps it wasn't ignorance, but forgetfulness that made them come to be unconfessed. It was not so clear if that kind of sin would be forgiven or not, so there was still no assurance.
Then, in following the 'earthly type', according to SDA interpretation (which was of course right, according to my SDA raised mind), those sins were NOT abolished, but merely transferred to the heavenly sanctuary (from whence to be returned to our shoulders should we ever 'fall away').
This was the reason given for the 'Antitypical Day of Atonement'. Those sins needed removed from the sanctuary (and from Jesus) in a 'heavenly housecleaning'. At the end of that housecleaning, that is to say, at the end of the Investigative Judgment (which my brain pictured as a massing of all piled up sins into a great blob) was the time for the scapegoat.
According to SDA logic Jesus couldnít be the scapegoat since Jesus is the high priest (never mind that at the cross Jesus was both sacrifice and priest). It couldn't be Jesus, since the scapegoat was sent away 'forever'. It also couldnít be Jesus because there was an identical goat that was slaughtered on the Day of Atonement and that goat represented Jesus. Therefore, by a great leap, Satan must be the scapegoat (never mind the ridiculous reality that if this is were to be true it would mean that whether Satan was the 'atonement for us' or not, it effectively made him the atonement, or at least vehicle for atonement for Jesus!!!).
So far as I recall, though not necessarily laid out in this format or this wording, Our conclusions were as follows, Our conclusions were as follows:
1. Our sins were not abolished by Jesus death on the cross, because to do so would render the Heavenly Sanctuary superfluous.
2. Jesus death DID make it possible for our sins to be removed from us (if he hadnít died, we would have to be destroyed along with our sins).
3. Jesus carried our sins with Him into heaven ñ and therefore must do something further to get them out of there.
4. The only sins Jesus has in heaven are the ones that were confessed (or sins of ignorance somehow covered) ñ therefore, by the end of the IJ only the sins of the righteous are there to be placed on the scapegoat.
5. The scapegoat, Satan, will be required to carry all the sins of the righteous in addition to his own sins. This is why he wants to take as many people as he can with him to perdition ñ so they can suffer for their own sins and he wonít have to.
6. Jesus death was necessary ñ it made it possible for the sins of the righteous to be separated from them. However the final and total destruction of the wicked, including Satan, are required to make a final end of sin and remove it from the universe (making annihilation a necessity as well).
When we presented our research to our teacher we were commended rather highly.
While at the time, I was proud of our work, there were a few disquieting questions that arose in my mind even then. For example:
1. How could Satan be argued to be ëwithout blemishí?
2. How could Satan be considered equal to Jesus, recognized as the being symbolized by the other Day of Atonement goat that was sacrificed?
3. In the pre-cross, yearly Day of Atonement service, there was no sacrifice for sins committed ON the Day of Atonement, only for those confessed and sacrificed for during the rest of the previous year, the ëdailyí service having been shut down for the occasion. If this was so, it would seem to follow that no sins committed in the ëantitypicalí Day of Atonement could be forgiven either! So if the beginning of the real Day of Atonement was in October 22, 1844, what happens to our sins now? Is there still forgiveness? On what basis? Thru whom?
There being no satisfactory answer to these questions and the rest of our theorizing seeming to stick together, the questions themselves were relegated to the ëfurther study when I have timeí file in my brain. When ëfurther studyí finally came, it brought with it the collapse of the whole, carefully reasoned, synthesis ñ for Godís Word, EGW, and the Early Adventist authors mix together about as well as iron and clay!
(Message edited by helovesme2 on August 22, 2006) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4485
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 3:44 pm: | |
Mary, what an awesome synthesis of the true teaching of the IJ and the logical questions this teaching raises! Thank you for sharing your study.
Even though i never delved into the IJ in as much minute detail as you did, nevertheless, the way you explained it above is exactly the way I learned it. Perhaps the primary "sense" I carried with me for decades was that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary in order for us ever to be able to achieve forgiveness, but it was NOT ENOUGH. It was only the first installment of outside "help" that we needed, but ultimately all the sinners in creation (we humans and Satan and his angels) were responsible for getting rid of sin in the universe.
As you pointed out, Jesus' blood, according to Adventist teachings, doesn't eliminate or remove sin. It only makes it possible for sin to be removed IF we strive and persevere in attaining holiness. In the end, sin is removed either on us or on Satan when the wicked are burned up. Jesus' death was merely a catalyst; sin's ultimate eradication happens when Satan or the wicked are punished for it.
We humans are, in this paradigm, the focal point and center of the universe. It's all about us.
What a reliefóit's really NOT all about us!
Colleen |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 696
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:14 pm: | |
Oh those poor kids working for The Messiah's Mansion. It gives me a pit in my stomach. They are being so brain-washed. It takes me back to my youth when I worked on a summer outreach team - going door to door handing out pamphlets and telling myself it was me in the "right" not those in the "wrong" who shut the door while I was still in mid-sentence.
Those kids are really getting the royal brainwashing treatment. I was never really clued in to all the sanctuary talk. I just faked it but I still knew it to be "truth". I am going to be praying for these kids on this summer tour!
Yes! It is a relief to know it is all about Jesus!
Denise |
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