| Author | Message | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2005 |
I've been recieving Samuele Bacchiocchi's email newsletters from a family member. Because of the current Sabbath School lesson, this newsletter focused it's "study" on the Investigative Judgment. There were two parts to it, and I only included a few excerpts as the entire newletter is very lengthy, and honestly, filled with lots of drivel. I did want to quote a few parts that really jumped out at me though, below. Each quoted section of the newsletter is separated by paragraph breaks; in other words, there are lots of paragraphs between that I did not include for length purposes. "The messages received indicate that some Adventists find it difficult to accept the notion of an endtime judgment prior to Christ's coming, because they feel that there is no need for God to investigate again sins which have been forgiven. Such a reasoning ignores that Scripture teaches that the investigative phase of the final judgment is not intended to supply God with information which He does not already have. After all, God is the Author of the "books" which are used in His final judgment. The heavenly records represent not the acquisition on the part of God of new knowledge, but the revelation of old knowledge to moral intelligences. One of the most telling evidences that God is not seeking new information through an investigative judgment is the Post-Advent judgment of the unsaved. This judgment, as we shall see in the next newsletter, is designed to enable redeemed humanity to understand more fully God's justice in not saving the unrighteous. The very fact that the lost have no part in the first resurrection of believers (Rev 20:5) indicates that God has already decided their destiny." "Yet, before their final destruction at the end of the millennium, God offers redeemed humanity the opportunity to examine the record of their lives to understand the justice of His judgment. It is noteworthy that both before rewarding believers with eternal salvation and before punishing unbelievers with eternal destruction, God invites His moral creatures to evaluate the basis of His judgment." "Surprise about God's criteria for offering eternal life to some while allowing others to experience eternal death could give rise to feelings of doubt and mistrust about the fairness of God's judgments. If allowed to persist, such feelings could threaten the eternal security of the new world. Rebellion against God could arise a second time and the redemptive mission of Christ into this world would have been in vain." "The eternal security of the new world will rest on the unquestioning attitude of trust, love, and obedience to God of its inhabitants. This attitude cannot be demanded, it can only be earned. A significant method used by God to gain and maintain the unconditional love and trust of His creatures is by making adequate provision for them to understand and accept the justice of His judgments. Numerous Scriptural passages to be considered in this chapter speak of God's inviting the moral beings of His universe to participate in His final judgment process that will decide the eternal destiny of people and angels (Dan 7:10, 22, 26; Matt 19:28; 12:41, 42; 1 Cor 6:2-3)." Not only does the investigative judgment take away your security in Christ, but it really undermines God's justice. This whole idea of God being on trial really upsets me. Why does He have to explain Himself to the universe, and why does this need to happen for a stable new world? All of this paints a picture of a very meek, unpowerful, non-sovereign God. The question is, why does Adventism want their people to view God as this way? First, I think this concept of God fits in with the idea of a 50/50 partnership of our works and God's grace quite nicely. According to Adventism, we really do need to help God's "justice" out. As a consequence though, Adventists never fully surrender their lives over to God. How can they really? In their minds, they need to be at least somewhat in control. Second, I think this concept is just the type of picture the Enemy wants to paint of God. I think the thing that Satan hates most is God's sovereignty. Appreciating God's sovereignty has been such a new thing for me as a Christ follower. Not until I could begin to understand that God is sovereign, and that He is all powerful, and full of mercy AND justice, could I truly view Him as Holy, Holy, Holy. It changed my whole idea of loving Him and worshipping Him. Anyway, just some thoughts on Bacchiocchi's newletter... The further out I get from Adventism, the more heresy I seem to see within it. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 193 Registered: 2-2006 |
In childhood, I was taught that Ellen was 'shown' (in various ways) that the "moral intelligences", SB refers to--watching our earthly drama-- were creatures on other planets. Aliens, in other words. God had to prove his reputation/character to them--the entire universe-- through us, too. The IJ doctrine had much to do with this. As a child, I always had the impression--with the gnostic Jesus/Satan struggle--that these creatures were watching with held breath to see whom would win in the end, like a ring-side seat, even though Ellen told who would win. (Perhaps, my childish mind thought they didn't know what Ellen said) It was rather exciting and special to be the center of the universe like that, even though those creatures were perfectly sinless and we were corrupt. Adventists were literally front and center stage, being used by God in his plan. On the negative side, that's a lot of pressure. Adventists were believers in ETs before the modern interest hit. Glad to be free of Adventist mythology. And the pressure. Cathy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 147 Registered: 6-2006  |
What I want to know is where in the Bible does it say that "God offers redeemed humanity the opportunity to examine the record of their lives to understand the justice of His judgment." Like we're all going to be standing in this long line, waiting our turn, and then going through the book and "evaluating" each page. "Yes Lord, I did that, but it was for a good reason. I really didn't think my sister would mind me borrowing her blue silk blouse. After all, she was always taking my stuff without asking..." Snowboardingmon, I totally agree with what you said. "All of this paints a picture of a very meek, unpowerful, non-sovereign God. " Also, when did Salvation stop being a gift (Rom 6:23, Eph 2:8) and start being a reward? (couldn't find a verse for that one) YIKES! In all the years I've gone to Sunday school, our lessons were always based on bibles stories. We never spent a moment on Martin Luther's writings. This study on the IJ is confusing and deceptive, let alone the obvious, unbiblical. It really makes me wonder does SDAism looks on EGW as their savior? Many of her writings look as if she took bits from prophets in scripture, applied it to herself, and then added her own opinions and imagination. I'm guessing that was her "hook". Hey if it sounds good, and people are willing to believe it, the sky's the limit! Leigh Anne | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 812 Registered: 1-2003 |
I too was taught that we were being watched by people on other planets...to see if God is just...but the fact they doubt God's fairness makes them sinners!!!! So they aren't unfallen! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 531 Registered: 7-2004  |
Now Pheeki, doubting (or wondering about) God's fairness is not a part of the 10 Commandments, and so of course those people from other planets are unfallen! It amazes me how much explanation, logic, reasoning and spin has to be put on SDA beliefs to make them work. The IJ seems to require that the most, which ought to be a clear indication that it is not at all Biblical. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1462 Registered: 10-2004  |
According to Adventism, not only are Jesus and Satan in a struggle (which is blasphemous in itself and puts Jesus and Satan on an equal level)--but Jesus needs our help in order to WIN! So, who is more powerful, then--Jesus or Satan? Satan, according to Adventism! Pheeki, EGW also calls the holy angels doubters. And even Jesus Christ Himself was a sinful doubter according to EGW!!!:
And in The Desire of Ages, she makes it clear that He actually did give in to the temptation: "He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal." (Page 753, paragraph 2.) Of course this is also more evidence of polytheism. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 22, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4483 Registered: 12-2003  |
So true, Jeremy. You're rightóthis whole idea of Jesus giving into fear is both blasphemous and polytheistic. I totally agree, Grace, that Bacchiocchi's explanation of the IJ undercuts our sovereign God and makes US the center of the universe. Another thing about his explanation of the IJ is that he totally ignores (in fact, even seems to discount) that the traditional IJ really does teach that Jesus is going through the "books" in order to determine who will actually be saved and which sins have actually been confessed. It's totally disingenuous of him to say God is NOT accumulating information about our sins. Ellen said he was! Too many Adventists, though, have read enough Bible to know that God knows His own, and the old Ellen teachings can't be true, so they "rewrite" the doctrine to try to appear "logical". The fact is, Ellen did teach that we have to help Jesus be vindicated before Satan. The further fact is that no in the universe questions God's justice or right to destroy sin. And finally, the IJóhowever it is taughtóelevates both man and Satan and demeans Jesus. It's a doctrine of demons, and it has no defense. Further, Ellen is a false prophet. She's not merely misguided. She endorsed and compiled ideas and saw dreams and "visions" which created a systematic theology which makes a mockery of Jesus, denies the personal power of the Holy Spirit, and "dumbs down" the Fatherónot to mention tearing apart the Trinity. Jesus is enough! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2306 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yeah, it's totally goofy. The very last time I attended the SDA church which was several years ago the minister had a sermon on this very topic. On the way out of the church the preacher was standing at the door to shake hands and I quoted the text which says, "... I remember their sins no more". Then I told him I am saved, I know I am saved and I can tell him exactially when I was saved. Taking the bait he asked me when and I answered, "On Good Friday in the year 33 A.D.". He offered to have me set up an apointment with him during the week at his office so he could explain my error to me but I declined his offer and I just never could go back no matter how much it ment to my elderly family member to have me come along. The SDA religion is way not even close to the Bible on some teachings. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 148 Registered: 6-2006 |
Is it safe to say that EGW projected her own feelings onto Jesus? In other words, looking at some of the quotes Jeremy listed it seems to me that she wrote what she thought she would think if she were Jesus. Why would doubts EVER assail Jesus? Or why would he ever fear anything? None of the prophets of old were ever able to know or relate to what God was thinking or feeling. She wrote of him like she could read his mind! Sorry if this has gone off topic. I guess I'm trying to understand what EGW's payoff was... Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1463 Registered: 10-2004 |
Great points, Leigh Anne! The Bible doesn't tell us everything Jesus was feeling or thinking, like EGW tried to!! Colleen, you said: "not to mention tearing apart the Trinity." That statement really caught my attention, because that is almost the exact wording of a sub-heading in an article that I found on the Amazing Facts website by Doug Batchelor and Kim Kjaer about the Trinity. The heading says "A Tearing in the Trinity"! Also, in that same section of the article, it says that there was a "risk" of "the breakup of the Godhead" and that if Jesus had sinned there would have been a war of the gods--or as they put it, "Omnipotent good would have been pitted against omnipotent evil." The "omnipotent evil," of course, referring to Jesus... !!! Speechless at the blasphemy, Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 22, 2006) | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2309 Registered: 11-2002 |
So, Jeremy, it seems to me there isn't much difference in the SDA understanding, vis EGW about Jesus and satan than the LDS. The LDS actually come right out and say that Jesus and Lucifer are/were brothers at the beginning. Of course, the SDA does not teach this but at the same time the SDA do give the devil a lot of credit and sure want to make satan out to being 'on our side' or to reword it, 'oh, poor satan'. remember around 20 years or so Richard Pryor coined the phrase, 'the devil made me do it' and that phrase was suddenly on bumper stickers, tee-shirts and so on? Do the SDA's teach the devil makes them sin or is it totally free will and they make themselves sin? Also, from my upbringing I was taught that Jesus almost sinned but because He knew when to pray to get out of surcomming to the temptation He was able to live a sinfree life and if we could just master that timimg of when to back off from the temptation we, too could be just like Jesus. Kind of diminishes the divinity of Jesus. Jesus was taught to me more of an example than as Saviour. However, since Jesus is the SDA example more than Saviour then how come the SDA's don't follow Jesus's example and drink wine, dance at weddings, eat meat and a variety of other SDA no-no's that Jesus did while on this earth for His 33 years. Doesn't add up. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4489 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great observations, Susan. Jeremy, your work on researching Adventist teaching and statements about the Trinity is so valuable. It really is unbelievable that they actually believe that Jesus could have becom omnipotent evil. And yes, Susan, this statement is edging awfully close to the Mormon belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers, one of whom "went bad". As we were processing out of Adventism, this realization was one of the heresies which offended and shocked Richard and me. After we had decided we had to follow Jesus even if that following meant leaving the church, we began to have a lot of insights about the "deeper" Adventist teachings that we hadn't thought of before. As we were thinking through the idea of the great controversy that taught that Jesus and Satan are locked in an ongoing battle for supremacy over creation and that we, the creatures, are going to help Jesus our Elder Brother win this battle, we suddently realized that the Adventist teaching was very similar to Mormon teaching. Jesus and Satan are NOT fighting a battle. Jesus has already triumphed over Satan and his agents (Col 2:14-15). All that's left is the pit of hell prepared for them. Further, WE have absolutely no power to "help" Jesus win over Satan. Further, the Bible never says that Satan has a logical accusation against God. He's just a rebellious subject who turned the corner into being his own god instead of honoring his Creator. He is not even close to being in an as-yet-undetermined conflict with Jesus. Jesus is fully Godóand He has already triumphed over Satan. There's no "great controversy"óit's all a myth designed to elevate Satan and diminish Jesus. Further, it places humanity at the center of creation. God's job is to "take care of us". This idea is heresy. We are here to bring glory to God. He doesn't exist "for us"óHe created us for Him. We serve a completely sovereign, faithful triune God Who is One and who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in three persons. It is a mystery that is not fully revealedóbut it is Biblical truth. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2312 Registered: 11-2002 |
Go to Jay Leno's website and you can see a copy of the Signs cover frew a year or so back of Jesus and satan duking it out wioth Light Sabers. Just like Han Solo and Darth Vader duked it out with the Light Sabers the Signs put it on the cover of the magazine with Jesus and satan duking it out. Jay Leno held up the Signs on his program when he did a segment of goofy headlines. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 243 Registered: 4-2005  |
This portion of Bacchiocchi's quote troubles me: "Surprise about God's criteria for offering eternal life to some while allowing others to experience eternal death could give rise to feelings of doubt and mistrust about the fairness of God's judgments. If allowed to persist, such feelings could threaten the eternal security of the new world. Rebellion against God could arise a second time and the redemptive mission of Christ into this world would have been in vain." I don't find any possibility of sin breaking out again in heaven and God's new earth in Scripture. Consider the following texts: (texts abreviated) Rom 6:10 - the death He died He died to sin, once for all. v 11 - So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin.... v 14 - For sin will have no dominion over you.... v 18 - "having been set free from sin.... Heb 9:26 "He has appeard once for all, ...to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." 1` Jn 1:7 - "...and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (my emphasis) Rev 22:3 "No longer will there be anything accursed...." Rom 14:23 "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Now if my faith in God is not sufficient for me to trust Him and His eternal justice and final end of sin, and need to have God prove his decision of justice to satisfy MY standard of what is fair and just and what is not .... then am I not doubting God? Am I not sinning in needing to check out God, just to make certain He was just? And this act is not of faith, thereby I sin even now, before His return, by believing I'll be able to someday make absolutely sure God's final decision of justice was indeed just, according to MY standard of justice, which is totally contaminated by an unsanctified self. Dr. Bacchiocchi, I think you are offering human reasoning and rational. I'll stick with the simple, clear, pure God inspired WORD, the holy Scriptures! Jess | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4500 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jess, Thank you! I totally agree with you; if I have to make God PROVE that His decisions are just according to my standards, I am doubting God, and I am sinning. Great texts. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2750 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jess and Colleen, any time I read about the IJ, my mind starts spinning because it is so way "out there". It is so confusing and gets more so as time goes on. So, I have not read anything by SB about the IJ. Diana |
