| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2004 |
My first speck of questioning came when I discovered that certain SDA standards that I was taught were correct were not important in another country. And the other country held up standards that were not deemed important in the USA. That started my 8 year journey out of SDAism. Those 8 years were mostly filled with unanswered questions and study trying to rationlize SDA beliefs, but in the end I had to follow God's word and not the culture and belief system I was raised in. I went from "knowing it all" to feeling like I knew nothing. I went from having a surname that was recognized by many to being in a "Sunday church" where no one knew me. I went from having a pat answer to a Bible question to "oh my, I'm not sure...I'd better study that". It was quite a humbling experience! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 489 Registered: 6-2004 |
Considering it was 20 years ago that I left the SDA, I'd say I had an issue with the way the sabbath was observed by various members. It was basically a "to each their own" way of what was acceptable and what wasn't. A lot went on behind closed doors at people's homes such as watching tv, cooking, using the stereo, etc....even having a beer! | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2006 |
This made me smile because that's exactly how I've felt. As I look back, three things happened almost simultaneously: 1. The Holy Spirit started revealing Himself to me in real ways, things I never knew could even happen. And at that same time I was being impressed by the Holy Spirit to read the book of Acts verse by verse with Bible and cross references only. 2. Someone somewhere mentioned about EGW eating oysters. I wrote the EGW estate (sure wasn't going to check any anti SDA website) but they admitted it. Instantly and miraculously I had no more desire to have anything to do with EGW or the Spirit of Prophecy. 3. I was involved in a separate ministry at the time in which my pastor was the director. He relied on me to do research and one day he asked me to study out the New Covenant saying the Holy Spirit had revealed to him there were things we needed to know. I was thinking to myself that that sounded like a lot of work because I really didn't have a good understanding of any of the Covenants. Well, I did it with the Bible, a lot of prayer and a lot of time. I remember advising him not too long after I'd started that I was really running into problems with theology but he sort of brushed me off. The rest is history. It all started coming apart. Aliza | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 342 Registered: 5-2004 |
I was having a discussion with an SDA friend at work. We went to pull up the White Estate website to check out a quote...and instead ellenwhite.org came up. Well, I didn't even know that type of site existed. All it took was to see the first contradiction to the Bible...and well, there was no going back from there  I praise God every day for that miracle! | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 132 Registered: 1-2004  |
For me it was ellenwhite.org... I remember finding it way back when it was defending Ellen White. I had seen the info on bible.ca about EGW and thinking someone should have a site answering these critics. I loved ellenwhite.org because I thought "here is a guy doing what I think should be done!" And then... Dirk Andersen changed his tune!!! There came a time where I just read everything on ellenwhite.org and it was so much that even though I could answer almost every objection, there came a point where it was simply not possible for me to honestly believe in EGW anymore. That's how it started for me, I think. Jeremiah | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 608 Registered: 8-2004  |
First question? Hmm. I grew up in a home where my father railed against EGW much of the time. He hated that he'd been 'beat over the head' with her by his father and others who'd been significant influences in his life. But that generally had the effect of my defending her instead of questioning her - after all the Bible gets used as a club on a fairly regular basis too, and that doesn't make it evil. I was a 'questioning Adventist' for many years I think, but not questioning expecting to leave Adventism, just trying to better understand 'the truth'. What did start to raise flags (though I managed to rationalise even this for awhile), was Ellen White's public claims of 'no meat on our table' along side her private letters remarking on using 'fish when we can get it', and similar statements. I ran across these when trying to synthesize a coherant whole out of the bits and pieces of dietary advice given in EGW. I was looking at the Bible and what it had to say on diet as well, and expected that the whole thing would come together one concidered as a whole. I was anxious to eat properly - and to understand all the whats and whys. The problem I found here was not so much that she did or did not contradict Scripture (as I came later to realise she did). But rather that she contradicted herself. Other topics began to crop up though where she DID seem clearly to contradict scripture - tithe for instance (found this one when I was trying to figure out what place firstfruits have in the life of a Christian today), or jewelry and associated 'appearance' issues. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 490 Registered: 6-2004 |
The second stage of my departure was really seeing the EGW contradictions that was mentioned above. How can a so-called prophet get visions wrong or mixed up and then re-write them or do away with the first interpretations? That never happened to the true prophets in the Bible. And the manipulation of twisting numbers and dates to support the IJ and number of the Beast. That never made any sense but being misled, you just accepted it. Once I read the Bible without any SDA influences and propaganda, it became clearer and clearer that I was in error on many topics. It's frustrating that those still stuck in the SDA are so blinded to these lies that they can't see the truth until the veil gets lifted. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1454 Registered: 10-2004  |
This is a great topic, U2! For me, it was the growing conviction that it could not be wrong to eat meat (especially considering 1 Timothy 4) along with finding statements from EGW which condemned meat-eating/meat-eaters. That's what really started me searching to see if EGW was a false prophet. Websites such as www.ellenwhite.org and www.truthorfables.com were very helpful in this search. The real final "nail in the coffin" with regard to EGW was the Satan as scapegoat doctrine. The earliest questioning of Adventism that I had, though, that I remember, was when I was probably somewhere around 10-11 years old. I remember wondering why it was necessary to be a member of the SDA church in order to be saved--I thought, "If someone believes all of 'the truth' and everything then why do they have to be part of the SDA church, too?" Between these two things, my faith in EGW/SDA was also weakened from listening (for a period of time and then off and on) to Pastor J. Mark Martin's sermons, and going to his church a few times. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 17, 2006) | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2004 |
I remember about 4 years after I first started questioning things I got a bunch of history books from the library and set out to see if I could see find evidence of all the Daniel/Rev. prophetic dates. I searched, but it seemed like all the dates and events I was looking for (which were important to SDAs) were not found in the history books I had. I even had a book about the history of the popes. I'm not saying those events didn't exist, but they were certainly not of the significance that I presummed them to be. I ran across the ellenwhite.org site pretty much after I left the SDA church (attending a Sunday church), but I still considered myself SDA. It took reading the new testament as though I had never read it before to come to the point where I was fully convinced that my beliefs and SDA beliefs were not the same and I was no longer an SDA. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4470 Registered: 12-2003  |
This IS a great topic! I suppose that reading Desmond Ford's Glacier View address in 1980 or 81 was one of the first big chinks in the SDA armor. While I decided the IJ couldn't be true, though, I still thought Ellen was a prophet (talk about distorted thinking!). A few years later, I remember really struggling with understanding how we could explain Sabbath observance if the law was to be written on our hearts. I could understand how every other commandment could be written on the heart with no outside inputóand I could see many non-SDA Christians who had that law without the 4th commandment. I just couldn't figure out how Sabbath wasn't a "work" of some sort if salvation was through faith in Jesus without any works. I finally put that struggle to rest by deciding that the seven-day week must be proof that Sabbath was mandated, because the week wasn't a naturally-occuring cycle. A few more years later, Richard and I were studying with our neighbors, reading whole books of the NT through and discussing themóand that's when Adventism began unravelling for me. During that time Richard started finding all kids of stuff on the just-burgeoning internet re: Ellen White. Between the documents he was bringing me and the things we were studying from the Bible, the whole SDA package disintigrated. When Dale Ratzlaff sent Sabbath in Crisis to us and I read his explanation of the transfigurationóthat Moses represented the Law and Elijah the prophets, and they both disappeared leaving Jesus alone and God's voice saying, "This is my Son; listen to Him," I knew then that I would eventually leave the church. Wow! What a journeyóand praise God for His miracle! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 273 Registered: 10-2002  |
Wow. Good topic, good stories, good questions! I don't think I'd ever thought of this in such a pinpointed way, but it's an awesome question. I grew up seeing inconsistencies in Adventism but at the same time believed it was the truth. Kids can see hypocrisy much quicker than adults. A comment in the doctrinal book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe..." made my friends and I rather upset (it was about music, about shunning such "debased" music as "jazz", etc.). We started having lunch meetings in high school at Takoma Academy in order to re-write the book, but ended up only eating a lot of pizza and discussing among other things, the NFL. It wasn't really questioning SDA; instead it was more of re-writing SDA. When I came back from my year of missions in Osaka (8/1999-8/2000), I began investigating about changes to the Great Controversy, and then changes to Steps to Christ. I began to accept that the "message" had been corrupted, and that we needed to "get back" to something. I found 1888, and then read something which made me realize that God saw my pains in Adventism... He saw my frustration, the pains of all His children who were forced to believe in hypocrisy and were afraid to speak for fear of being critical of "His church". I was excited. I was on the trail. He'd been melting me and getting me ready, and then my friend said that if the Sabbath saved us in the end times, we were saved by our good works instead of by faith in Christ. That blew it open. I'd read Romans, but I'd never allowed the Gospel of Salvation by Faith to be applied to the Adventist Eschatology, to the end times scenario. The Gospel message had been confined to the "pre-end times", basically. When it was allowed to interpret SDA eschatology, the Sabbath quickly fell as a test of faith. And on top of it, my friends and I discovered the joy of the Holy Spirit and how God loves to be with us and talk with us today, and has not stopped filling people with His Spirit. As I look back on how it happened, it was all rather sudden and wonderful. Hehe. God's more than great. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2294 Registered: 11-2002 |
Interesting topic. Someday I will write it all out real nice and submit it to Proclamation! for publication. I had such a horrible 5th grade teacher that in 5th grade at age 11 I decided when I grew up "I was not going to go ever again to my parents stupid church". My 5th grade teacher held up a Plain Truth Magazine, the one put out by Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God one day and asked our class if any of our parents got that magazine. Only me and one other student held up our hands. Then she made me and him stay in at recess so she could tell us to never open or read that magazine because it was from satan, that satan had gave the truth of the Sabbath to that group but because they weren't SDA they were deceived into thinking they were right because they knew the truth of the Sabbath and that HWA was a false profit and there was only one last day true profit (misspelling of prophit intended) and that was Ellen White. I'd never paid much attention before to the Plain Truth but after that I always read it to find out what was so bad about it. This same teacher had the nerve to telephone my dad and tell him I shouldn't be allowed to play with my best friend after school because her parents smoked and drank beer. My dad had to once again tell that teacher off. As I grew up I was thankful I had such an awful teacher because she really opened my eyes to what was going on at a very young age. Then in 6th grade I fortunatelly got to go back to public school. Then in 11th grade at Monterey Bay Academy in the indrocation class (i.e.: Bible class) our teacher would be teaching us one thing and I would raise my hand and show him and the class FROM THE BIBLE the opposite of what he was teaching. Finily he took me aside and told me since I didn't want to learn what the church taught and I wanted to read the Bible I could keep my desk in the hall and for the rest of the year during Indoctration Class I would sit at my dest in the hall and read my Bible. I still say to this very day that I had the best Bible class of any student at that school that year. He did not let me play hookey. I just sat in the hall during class and actually read and studied my Bible. I KNEW at a very young age I was not going to be SDA when I grew up but I always wanted to go to a "real Christian church". I did attend a Seventh Day Baptist church for around six years but the church closed down and then I was whinning to a lady I worked with that I was churchless and she invited me to the Lutheran church she attends and I've gone there regurally ever since. There's really more to it. I gave you the Readers Digest version. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 581 Registered: 7-2004  |
Great question. But a hard one to completely sort out, especially since it happened so long ago. However, one of the key factors in my early questions was the writings of the Standish Brothers. When I went to AU (this was only months after becoming an SDA), I discovered that pretty much the only folks serious about their SDAism (and about any Biblical study) were the conservative SDAs. Soon most of my friends were somewhere between conservative SDA and ultra-conservative SDA. And someone among this group thought it was really important to introduce me to the writings of the Standish brothers. I was certain that all of those EGW quotes had to be taken out of context, so I went to the White Estate and started searching the Manuscript Releases and the early Review articles that held the original context of many of these quotes. Sure enough, the Standishes were right about what she wrote. This opened the door on a whole bunch of questions about EGW and SDA church history. Fairly much simultaneous to this I was taking classes on Daniel, Revelation, and the Sanctuary. And despite the professors' best efforts, I wasn't seeing how anyone could come the conclusion of an Investigative Judgment. At first, I wrote my doubts off to my inability to understand and my lack of Scriptural knowledge. But the more I studied this, and the longer I tried to understand, the greater my doubts became. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 274 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey Aliza, I'm curious... what became of your pastor who had told you to study the New Covenant, which he said was at the behest of the Spirit? Ramone | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1058 Registered: 7-2004 |
As I've mentioned a couple of times, my first opportunity to open my eyes came as a result of me trying to "share my faith" with a co-worker. She was a former Catholic, and still had her Catholic Bible at her desk. I kept a small NT at mine, and when I made some comment to the effect that the IJ had been going on for over 150 years already, and so surely that would soon be finished and Jesus would be ready to pour out the plagues and then come get the faithful. Her eyes nearly crossed at all of that, and she asked me where I had gotten all of that from, so I told her I could show her in "her bible." Well, her bible said "2300 evenings and mornings" and that was the beginning of a downward spiral for me and my "Ms Superior Knowledge" act. Our discussion sort of fizzled out and I slunk back to my desk. When I got home that evening I found a pre-publication notice in the mail for "Sabbath In Crisis" (now known as "Sabbath In Christ). I wrote out a check and dropped the book request in the mail. It was several weeks later that the book arrived. Thank goodness that it got to my house on a Friday because once I picked it up I did not put it down until I had read the final page. I shared the book with an SDA friend, and never saw that book, or that person again. I still pray that the book is being passed from hand to hand. A couple of years later I purchased Elder Ratzlaff's next book "The Cultic Doctrine of the SDA Church." I was still an active member of my local church, but was starting to actively ask difficult questions in Sabbath School. Most of the teachers got so they didn't want me in their classes. I read the second book with the same ferver I'd read the first one with, and by the time I finished reading and layed it down I was sobbing and hiccupping. I called the phone number in the book thinking I'd get a recorded message, or someone trained to give you a short "you've read the book, now get lost" kind of response, but I found myself talking to Dale Ratzlaff instead. I was histerical, and he just calmly talked me through the process, then prayed with me, and most importantly he told me not to do anything rash, to give the information time to sink in, and allow time for the Holy Spirit to teach me what I needed to know. It took about three or four months for me to process out, but the first thing I did was get rid of all my EGW books. No regrets there! | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 295 Registered: 7-2005  |
I first acknowledge that there is a real problem with the SDA faith when someone asked me to answer to the idea that the pioneers of the churc, the millerites, were lead by a spirit contrary to the Word of God, because they went directly against it's plain teaching "Nobody knows the date or the hour" of the second coming, setting a date, 22 october 1844 for the return of Jesus. Until that time I thought that the millerites simply were mistaken in their interpretation of the Bible. But know I saw clearly that they were aginst the plainest teaching of the Bible, which is not open to interpretation: "Nobody knows the date or the hour". And they were warning about this truth, and still insited to set a date for the second coming. Net was the issue of naming apostates those who clinged to the Bible and refused to buy the idea of Jesus coming on 22 october. They were still named apostates even if they had been proved to be right, Jesus is still in heavn, after all. I saw that adventists are inconsistent, and even unfairly in dealing with others who set a date, naming their date-setting a delusion, but exonerating Miller and their movement. This started a deep and profound crisis in my life. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 478 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jackob, you really hit to the heart of the issue. The orginization was founded out of prideful disregard for the scriptures and that has been expanded on and on and on | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 84 Registered: 8-2005 |
I so much appreciate this thread... As I have stated before, my journey out began with a reading of the book of Hebrews. Hebrews 9 flies in the face of 1844 and proves it to be untrue. Strangely enough, while I have struggled as more and more things I have always believed have been proved untrue, my wife has let it all go without the slightest struggle. I can relate to the statemnent by U2bsda that it is a humbling experience to go from being known and respected to being put in the postion of a learner that no longer knows as much as he believed.... It is strange how we all react differently to the workings of the Sprit of God! All I can say to all of you is 'Praise God!' InSearchOf | ||
| Ardyj Registered user Username: Ardyj Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2006  |
Praise God is absolutely right!! The defining event that led me out of Adventism is a little hard to pinpoint. I really think in looking back at my life that the Holy Spirit was trying to tell me something from very early on; but I didnít listen for a long long time. Many events in my childhood and on into adulthood should have made me really stop and take notice, but it was not until our children were grown and out on their own, that I really started paying attention to what was going on as far as what fallacies Adventist beliefs and practices really are! My husband and I were studying at the same time, but on different ìslantsî. I had finally come to grips with a lifelong distrust of EGW. I never could make any sense of her writings; just seems as though she went round in circles and the repetitions just were beyond belief for me. I never could make any real sense of the IJ either. But for years I had just numbly accepted all those false teachings. Finally, the pieces began fitting together. We started discussing the truths of the Bible, such as the Mosaic Law, salvation by Grace alone, etc. Then our daughter invited me to go to a Beth Moore Seminar with her, and that really was the turning point. I credit my daughter with really getting me on the track, and know now it was the Holy Spirit using her to finally reach me. I started reading many books, among them SAVED WITHOUT A DOUBT by John MacArthur; DISCOVERING THE NEW COVENANT by Greg Taylor; and the one that really defined the New Covenant for me, OUR COVENANT GOD by Kay Arthur. Reading the Bible became pure joy for me; new discoveries all the time after a lifetime of thinking I knew what is in the Word. It just boggles my mind! A new light, the light of the Holy Spirit shone on the Word. My husband and I really starting talking and discovering new things all the time; and continue to marvel at these ìnewî discoveries! We made the decision to leave the church and wrote a letter to the Board asking our membership be removed. What a burden was lifted from me! Starting a new life ìlater in lifeî, so to speak, I guess. We wrote a letter to the SDA church requesting our membership be removed, and it was finally granted after many months of waiting. I suppose they thought we would change our mind, and ìcome to our sensesî! After all, both my husband and I had been "faithful" members for many years and held offices all those years. Both of us being elders and teachers, and myself being church organist/pianist for more years than I care to count. The attitude of many in the church is another story for another time; but we have never looked back. We have found peace and joy in the realization that through Jesus Christ our salvation is sure. God is so good!! Two of our children have also studied their way out of the cult of Adventism and we are all praying the third will be blessed in this same way. | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2006 |
Ah, Ramone, you ask about the pastor who challenged me to learn the New CovenantÖÖ I know he processed out of a lot of Adventist theology, all the while remaining an evangelical Adventist pastor. He always said he wouldnít take another church; he was leaving the denomination when the Holy Spirit directed; he set dates to leave that came and went etc. Recently I had sent him an e-mail about something else (weíre several states apart now) and I mentioned within it how thankful I was about some of the things that I had learned as a result of his ministry. I got a really angry reply back. My guess is perhaps heís fighting the conviction of the Holy Spirit for remaining within Adventism and truly, truly living a double life. Aliza |
