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Message |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1970
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 11:04 am: |     |
I agree Jackob with a lot of your points. But this is the frankest meeting I have been to yet.
When Hoyt mentioned restitution, he was not talking about restoring Ellen's authority. He was very clear that it is an outrage that ABC bookstores continue to sell books as being misrepresentedly written by Ellen. This forum I attended was not about protecting or restoring White's reputation. It is true he still believes her to have been gifted, but not in the way as traditionally thought.
Jacob wrote: "Can she be deceitful all his life about stealing from others and be a christian?"
I asked this question directly to Hoyt, and again he had no good answer. He thinks the best answer to all of this lies in her mental state.
Fred Hoyt is also the one who first exposed the fact that Ellen claimed to have 100 direct personal visits from Christ--not in vision!
So at least you can be a full professor at an SDA University, and now, as opposed to the early 80's, Hoyt is allowed to speak more boldly on these issues. What he said at this forum is far more damaging to the credibility of Adventism than what Ford presented to a 1979 forum at PUC.
By posting this material I have no illusions that the SDA church is changing. I only rejoice if I see some honestly questioning the false roots of Adventism.
Stan
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4571
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 5:16 pm: | |
The book "Prophets Are Human" by Graeme Bradford is being pushed as a re-education of Adventists, showing how we expected urealistic things from a "prophet". Her plagiarism is addressed; her failed prophecies are addressed, etc. Yet the goal is not to disabuse people of belief in her. On the contrary, it is for the purpose of reinforcing belief in her.
Bradford argues from the position that the Bible also has contradictions and "errors". How can we expect more from her than from the Bible writers?
Fred Hoyt's presentations are not really causing any more damage than Desmond Ford. In fact, Fred Hoyt's presentations are almost old hat. Ellen's claims, plagiarism, even her personal visits by Christ have been known before now. The church is masterful at allowing the troubling information to seep into the churchóafter the initial bru-ha-ha, as in the reaction against Ford, which was HUGE, and allowing people to become familiar with it, learning to live with it, to explain it, etc. It's like turning the heat up under a pan of water where a cold-blooded frog is swimming. The frog will adjust to the increased temperatures until it dies from being cookedóand all without much discomfort.
Hoyt's revelations tend to blame Ellen's propblems on her mental state. Her mental state, however, is truly not the basis of her problems. Oh, I believe it played a role. The real problem, however, was spiritualóand not just in Ellen. It was a spirit of pride and arrogance and deception in all the church foundersóas well as a spirit of greed in James who wanted both power and money, and Ellen helped him achieve both.
The early Adventists were unrepentant when they clearly had disobeyed the Biblical command not to date-set. Ellen et al refused to repent, unlike most of the Millerites, and they persisted in creating a fradulent explanation for a sin that required repentance.
I do believe that some people are actually questioning the veracity of their roots. Unless they turn to Jesus, however, their questioning will only lead them toward agnosticism, not toward life.
Colleen
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2346
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 6:21 pm: | |
If they elimited the plagerism then they'd have to elimate EGW. The SDA church stands or falls on EGW. There are other Sabbath observing Christian churches besides the SDA. I attended a local Seventh Day Baptist church nearly each week for around six years. I'd still be attending there if it still existed but it got very small and the pastor was transferred to a different area far away. But, still, SDA'ism is rooted very firmly on EGW and she is way into plagerism. Still, Stan, what you wrote is very interesting. |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 217
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 8:00 pm: | |
I don't know, maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe that as long as there's life, there's hope, and I hope that one day the SDA church will pull it's head out of the sand long enough to see the truth boldly. If the denomination actually made statements of truth, and started pushing for and making REFORM, one by one, pastors and parishioners would also make changes as well. I have had plenty of Adventist pastors and theology professors ALMOST HAVE IT, if you know what I mean. In other words, what they were hanging on to was a mighty thin thread when it came to espousing Adventism. Just because generations before have not had the fortitude to be honest does not mean that one day it might not happen. I celebrate every time I see evening a little light shining in that cultic and very dark cage. Can we all pray for this HOYT that God will give him the BOLDNESS or anatomy, which ever works, TO DO MORE THAN STIR A POT FOR THE SAKE OF PRIDE. I am stopping right now to pray that the Holy God of HEALING AND TRUTH AND COURAGE will OVERWHELM Hoyt's spirit, and like Balams donkey, be UNABLE TO SPEAK ANYTHING BUT WHAT GOD HAS HIM SPEAK.
Lisa
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1977
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 11:55 pm: | |
Amen Lisa,
I know many are cynical about any kind of change. But I did detect a spirit in Dr. Fred Hoyt that was at least encouraging. I am praying for him. I think he was affected deeply by some of the direct questions that were asked. Like you, maybe I am just slightly an optimist. Not that I believe the SDA church will be reformed, but professors like Hoyt do encourage me some.
Stan |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2795
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 6:45 am: | |
I think if anything happens within the SDA church it will be like the WWOC. Some will follows Jesus Christ and others will not. These are just my thoughts. I know God can work miracles and when and where He does is done in His timing.
He is always awesome.
Diana |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 87
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 2:13 pm: | |
Who can say where Hoyt's comments will go? I suspect that on the West Coast many of these issues with EGW are old hat, but in other parts of the country, a meeting like that would cause outrage among the faithful - not because their faith might be shaken, but because someone dared to criticize a prophet of God.
The Adventist denomination is in an impossible position. They claim to be the true church of God and one with a direct link to God in the person and ministry of EGW. If they admit that she was not what she (and they) claimed to be, then they have no 'message', no 'truth' for the 'last days'. This is the reason that people are run out when they question one of the 'Big Three' - 1844, EGW, and the IJ. This is why the SDA church is so intolerant when it comes to differing opinions. And, I fear, this is why they will not serioiusly examine their core doctrine.
I think that Hoyt's candor in questioning EGW is refreshing. Do I think it will change many people's minds? Unfortunately, no. I only have to look at myself to know why. My SDA church lost it's pastor when the Des Ford controversy was in full bloom. When I asked why the pastor had resigned I was told not to worry about it. When I heard he did not believe in EGW I did not bother to study anything for myself. I took the word of some well-meaning people that I respected that I need not be concerned over anything that was going on and so I continued on for another 20+ years as a happy SDA.
Then, 6 or 7 years ago the EGW 'problem' cropped up with a couple in our church. I actually began to look into it then and just blew it off as somewhat bothersome, but all in all, no big deal. It was not until something over year ago that I began to really see things as they really were - a huge issue that had to be dealt with in my own mind.
The rank and file SDA doesn't really bother to read EGW anymore. When they do, they usually only read Desire of Ages or Great Controversy. For most SDA's that I know, those two books are the sum total of EGW for them.
Again, I could wish things would change (I hope they do!), but if the SDA church every REALLY comes to grips with the plagerism issue, then 1844 and the IJ will have to fall. I just don't think they can allow that to happen.
InSearchOf |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2352
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 3:07 pm: | |
Dear Insearchof, Yes, I know numerous SDA's who don't read any of EGW's books, don't even own them. Yet, those folks are so completely influenced by her writings. They read the Sabbath School lesson book, which seems to be EGW's quotes on every page and one can even order the EGW guide to go along with the Sabbath School lesson, they read the Review, The conference magazines such as the Pacific Union Recorder, most get the Doug Botchler Annoying Fiction studies, they get the VOP magazines, the Maranartha Magazine, The Adventist World Radio magazine, the Quiet Hour magazine, and on and on. So, I have the belief that Adventists don't ever need to open an EGW book to be very greatly influenced by her. |
Wolfgang
Registered user
Username: Wolfgang
Post Number: 100
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 6:47 pm: | |
your right susan,we were those SDA that didnt teach our kids or really open an EGW book,but you cant get away from her she's in the puplit,in the SS lesson,and her influence is everywhere,I couldnt hide from her even if I tried. Dawn |
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis
Post Number: 222
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 7:06 pm: | |
I actually attended a church where I'm quite sure the Pastor did not believe in Ellen White. He quoted her one time during the "conservative service" (we had two services to try to accommodate music issues). Our friends love God and think of themselves as mainline Christians, however because they don't want to rock the boat of life by leaving, they spend much of their time making jokes about the beliefs, but never do dig deep for answers. They won't vote, they won't do deep theology, they stay shallow and so do their kids... stay surface Christians... exactly like CATHOLICS.... it's easier to stay shallow and stay put then to go deep and act honestly. I do not think most of our Adventist friends are intentionally dishonest, but that's the sum total of living inside the Adventist culture and doing what you want to do anyway. I still wish for intellectual honesty as I know plenty of people who would see the error of their ways if it were preached from the top down. I still hope and pray....
Lisa
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2358
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 7:29 pm: | |
Lisa, Years ago I attended a very large SDA church in the san Joaquin Valley of ca. The pastor was wonderful. He brought that church from only a handful of people at one weekly service to two services each Sabbath and the church building was filled with every seat taken at each service. He was teaching the pure Gosple, I never even once heard him mention EGW or even a reference to any of the stuff she conjoured up. This pastor preached stright Bible, stright Jesus truth. And, you know what happened? The conference fired him. And, then that same church went downhill to where it had been before this pastor ever came there. The SDA church was blessed with a wonderful Bible grounded pastor and he got canned. that's how they take care of pastors who teach stright from the Bible, the stright Gosple of our risin Christ. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2799
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 8:00 pm: | |
The pastor who taught my son about the gospel was 2 years from retirement as an SDA pastor and he quit. He has his own business now and I think he still preaches. He was when I last talked to him. He had quite a few people leave the church with him.
Diana |
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