| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1951 Registered: 3-2005 |
I had the privilege of attending an Association of Adventist Forums meeting in San Diego on Saturday August 12 2006 delivered by Fred Hoyt, Professor of History at La Sierra University, and the meeting with the title was even advertised in the Pacific Union Recorder which is encouraging. This issue with regard to Ellen's plagiarism will not go away. Fred Hoyt was very blunt in this presentation. I posted this on an SDA forum recently, and got the predictable responses, but I thought I would share some of the excerpts of the presentation: "An extremely serious and very basic problem at the very heart of Adventism's ecclesiastical body has festered so long in a neglected and untreated condition that it cries out for competent diagnosis and immediate treatment even if heroic measures are mandated. This complex problem area relates fudamentally to the precise nature of Ellen White's inspiration and relationship of this Fruit of the Spirit to her voluminous writings and publications. Or, to phrase the problem in a single question, How could Ellen White, a poorly educated and seriously handicapped woman, have consistently produced such well organized and often beautifully written articles and books on a variety of important subjects in impressive quantities over such a long period of time? What was the secret of an author with a simple third-grade education writing like a well educated and talented college graduate and especially in a time and place where such an education was firmly closed to her?" This is the opening intro paragraph, and more to come as time permits. This booklet and tape is available thru the AAF SDA forums in San Diego, and I will get an address and email where you can order this info. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1952 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is another quote from Hoyt: "Any discussion of such questions will quickly lead to that complex ethical, moral, spiritual, and legal morass known as PLAGIARISM.(emphasis is the author's). Some would instantly object to this concept being applied to any of Ellen white's writings. Others would insist that another term, at the very least, such as 'literacy dependency" should be used. This paper insists that such euphemistic manipulation is unacceptable. Clever semantic games in the past have served only to further obfuscate the esential inherent problems rather than shed light on them." Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2340 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stan, my SDA kin actually have told me that God led Ellen White to the articles that she was supposed to write down. this was because prior to ellen white the truth was scattered and God wanted the truth to be all together so He provided EGW with the articles she was to copy. It sounds like an interesting meeting you attended. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2341 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stan, my SDA kin actually have told me that God led Ellen White to the articles that she was supposed to write down. This was because prior to Ellen White the truth was scattered and God wanted the truth to be all together so He provided EGW with the articles she was to copy. It sounds like an interesting meeting you attended. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1953 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is some ordering information for the presentation done by Dr. Frederick G. Hoyt Emeritus Professor of History La Sierra University Riverside Calif. 92515 The presentation entitled: "The Specter of Plagiarism Haunting Adventism" The audio tapes and manuscript can be ordered from: San Diego Adventist Forum P.O. Box 3148 La Mesa, Calif. 91944-3148 August 12 2006 email Jim Katz at ak-jk@cox.net Quoting again from Dr. Hoyt: "Doubtless the most crucial assumption is that no further research is needed in order to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Ellen White consistently, knowingly, and openly functioned in a manner that today would be termed plagiarism. That both she and her supporters harbored some doubts about the legitimacy--or the moral correctness-- of such procedures is strongly suggested by the instant and harsh manner with which questions about such "literary dependence" were treated....' "This leads to an absolutely fundamental, overriding question that must be faced: How can we now rationalize, understand, justify, or excuse seemingly unethical conduct by Ellen White and her colleagues related to their misuse of sources?" Dr. Hoyt chronicles Dr. Jack Provonsha's anger and resentment about the church covering up the 1919 Bible Conference minutes. Here is Provonsha: "I feel a justifiable resentment toward those even well-intentioned people who concealed these 'facts of life' [that Ellen White was heavily dependent upon other sources for her writings] from us all of those years [1919 onwards] out of a mistaken impression that we couldn't handle them...Those leaders [including GC president AG Daniells] who spoke so freely at that 1919 conference behind closed doors, and then went home with their lips sealed showed at the very least a lack of courage." "To speak out was often to risk one's career. But to misuse a gift of God--and the power of God--for self-serving ends is to take His name in vain." Dr. Provonsha didn't mince words. This is a serious offense. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1954 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dr. Hoyt did an extensive review of SDA history starting from the time of Canright, and then spending a lot of time on F.D. Nichol, who was one of the strongest apologists for Ellen's copy work in his book "Ellen G. White and Her Critics" But FD Nichol used the classic argument "everyone else is doing it", as well as the time honored excuse that "the ends justifies the means". Dr. Hoyt quoting Nichol: "Borrowing without giving credit has been done by all great writers." Even more shockingly Nichol claimed that the chief plagiarists have been religious writers. As an example, Nichol tellingly cited a detailed confession of this practice by John Wesley (ironically one of Ellen's most influential mentors as she came from Methodism). But note carefully--Wesley CONFESSED, and also routinly acknowledged his profound debt to others. "Then surprisingly, Nichol declared that there had always been general agreement among religious leaders and writers that such practices were acceptable because they 'felt that they were writing, not to advance their own interests [ i.e., religious persons possess no egos], but the interests of the kingdom of God [as determined solely by themselves], and that whatever might contribute to that objective should be drawn upon.'" Which, Hoyt says "constitutes a beautifully phrased example of Jesuitical, or Machiavellian, reasoning: any means for attaining a justifiable end." Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1955 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dr. Hoyt came to the conclusion that Ellen would be guilty of plagiarism by today's standards by reading the entire 858 page report of Dr. Veltman. "Then Veltman clearly pointed out that the venerable minimalist defense was no longer to be tolerated: 'Secondly, it should be noted that this conclusion is not qualified by such expressions as 'minimal borrowing'..." Veltman said his research "indicates that Ellen White at times felt free to take verbatim expressions from the writings of others, but for the most part she paraphrased her sources. Yet, for neither approach did she bother to give credit to the author from whom she borrowed." Hoyt points out the problems Veltman faced in getting primary source material: "Searches by the staff of the White Estate office and our own investigation have failed to turn up any handwritten texts for a single one of the Desire of Ages text. Even worse, there is not even a secretarial copy of a single DA chapter as typed from an Ellen White handscript text." How do we know what Ellen White actually wrote? Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1956 Registered: 3-2005 |
After dealing with Canright, FD Nichol, Walter Rea, Donald MacAdams, and Fred Veltman, then Hoyt turned his attention toward the work of another Loma linda University Religion faculty member James W. Walters who published an article in "Adventist Today" in March-April 1998 issue with this provocative title: "Ellen G. White and Truth-Telling: An Ethical Analysis of Literary Dependency." "Walters challenged recent approaches to the critically important problem area of EGw's inspiraion and charges of plagiarism in her extensive writings." "James Stirling( an anthropologist at LLU did an analysis starting with an insightful generalization about Adventistism: 'The great majority of Adventists through the years have sincerely believed that the words they read in the writings of Ellen White were her own or even God's words spoken to her. In reality, however, some direct passages and many ideas and words were taken originally from the works of other people. Was she plagiarizing in doing this? James Walters cites dictionary definitions of plagiarism to say she was: 'the appropriation or imitation of the language, ideas, and thoughts of another author, and representation of them as one's own work." Hoyt goes on in analyzing Walter's article: "As an example of 'human weakness" proposed as a valid factor in excusing Ellen White's gross ethical conduct, Walters cited the well known and very sad, nay tragic, story of the brutal mistreatment of one of her most talented literary assistants, Fannie Bolton. When she complained that Mrs. White was claiming credit for articles that she herself had actually written in their entirety, Ellen White labeled her a 'traitor' and 'verily possessed by demons.' Finally, when she did not change her 'traitorous' ways she was summarily terminated." Now quoting further from Dr. Walters: "She was obviously self-conscious, defensive, and regrettably deceptive about her source dependence." Quoting from Hoyt: "Walters thinks that Ellen White was clearly wrong in her plagiarism and further compromised her integrity by denying it. Ellen White's deceptive literary practices must not be countenanced, although they can be comprehended. Unless Ellen White is seen as totally self-deluded, her literary practices do detract from her personal integrity. However, Walters does not believe they destroy it." Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1957 Registered: 3-2005 |
To conclude these excerpts from Hoyt's presentation, I will quote the last two paragraphs of his presentation: "The executive board of the Organization of American Historians approved a 'statement on Honesty and Integrity' at its spring 2002 board meeting which endorsed this statement: 'Honesty and integrity should undergird the work of all historians' was their conviction because the historical profession is based on the principle of truth. Plagiarism--Stealing another writer's work and offering it as one's own--also undermines search for truth, and is an attack on the credibility of the historical profession as a whole." "If professional, secular scholars can adopt and enforce such impressive ethical standards, how can religious organizations, such as the SDA church and its attendant entities, such as the White Estate, maintain any lower standards? Who among us will now function as a true statesman and begin the painful but absolutely necessary process of research, rectification, renewal, and restitution?" I say a hearty AMEN to the challenge that Dr. Hoyt lays down above. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4559 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hoyt is right, of course. My question remains: why do people stay in a system they know to be dishonest? The mental gymnastics necessary to stay when one knows the truth isódishonest. There's no other word for it. If they think they can change it by stayingóthey can't. Since before the 1919 Bible conference, people have known the truth and have refused to incorporate it into their lives. The deception is passed on from generation to generation. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1958 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, I asked Fred Hoyt that question directly to him during the intermission. There was sort of a blank stare with words not being plentiful. He also tried hard in part of the presentation to still try to save some face for Ellen White, but it was not convincing. It was clear to me, that probably he is protecting his pension?? but clearly he doesn't really believe in Ellen as far as I could tell. How painful to try and stay in that situation! Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2786 Registered: 3-2004  |
A hearty AMEN from me also to the challenge Dr. Hoyt lays down. It is so good to see some one like Dr Hoyt say these things. Stan, thanks for posting this. God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 246 Registered: 12-2004 |
Stan, Thank-you for presenting this research on this forum. I can only echo what you have said, in that I am amazed that these Adventist scholars continue to churn out this irrefutable evidence and yet stay in the denomination. I posted a similiar comment yesterday on CARM under the "continuing and authoritative source of truth thread". I am just amazed at the proof of deception that continues to come to the surface, and people just don't take the implications of what it means it seriously. For them it is just another interesting curiousity, when really it strikes at the very legitimacy of Adventism in general, and especially the legitimacy of EGW specifically. With Ellen White being an absolute sham in that she wasn't what she claimed to be. It tosses out any Adventist claim to being the REMNANT church using the all important 2 verses in Revelation. The whole deck of cards continues to come down. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 182 Registered: 6-2006  |
Deuteronomy 18:20 (NIV) 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1479 Registered: 10-2004  |
I also wonder how these people can hold onto Ellen as a prophet and say that her theft and lying/deception/abuse about it does not destroy her integrity! How can they say that she had a "gift of God" that she "misused"??! What blasphemy! I also notice that none of these folks mention that God says, "'Therefore,' declares the LORD, 'I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me." (Jeremiah 23:30 NIV.) Those, like Ellen, who do such things are not true prophets--they are false prophets. In fact, God is against Ellen White and will continue to be for all eternity. I wouldn't want to be in her place right now. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1963 Registered: 3-2005 |
I am impressed with the progress at least in some quarters with regard to this problem. The Pacific Union Recorder would never have advertised a meeting on Ellen's plagiarism, even a few years ago. When I attended this meeting in an SDA church, there was a genuine spirit of concern about this deception. Also, Hoyt says this research is ongoing with probably more shocking discoveries to be made known in the future. At least there was some spirit of openness that was encouraging, but many of these people will always remain cultural SDAs. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4563 Registered: 12-2003 |
The Pacific Union Recorder has been advertising the Adventist Forum meetings for years. The Adventist Forum is no threat to the church. They have featured all kinds of "detractors", including Dale Ratzlaff, Walter REa, Desmond Ford, Raymond Cottrell, etc. These meetings do not mean people are changing their minds. After working with the Adventist Today staff for several years, I have a new understanding of the thinking of the "forum crowd". These are not, in general, the people who are looking for truth. They are the "intellectual Adventists" who LOVE the sparring, challenge, and stimulation of dallying with "out there" ideas and with dissecting the foibles of the church. Of course they are outragedóoutraged enough to ask for "change"óbut not of the sort we think of. By "change" they mean "owning" the problem and "re-visioning" what Adventism really is. IOW, since Ellenh plagiarized, we'll acknowledge itóand we'll rewrite her function. Instead of being God's mouthpiece, we'll make her a culturally and historically significant person. She's what the church needed during a time when it desperately needed a voice from God. (That's one definition of her that I remember reading in an article I edited.) She served a necessary historic function, but we see her differently today. The Adventist Forums are not trying to expose Ellen in the sense most of us here mean. They are proud to be able to see beyond the "simplistic" view of her prophet status and vision her as a much more significant historical figure that we can embrace for her strengths instead of her weakness. No, the Adventist Church is NOT the least bit threatened by Adventist Forums. Jeremy is right about her. And the Adventist Forum is loyhal to the churchóincluding Ellen in her new, "re-visioned" status. The Forum meetings are not evangelical. they are liberal meetings where "intellectual Adventists" (to use John McLarty's term) congregate to enjoy the conundrums of their church, chewing on it as intellectual fodder. No, this isn't about real change; this is about further obfuscation which will make young Adventists only more confused. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2344 Registered: 11-2002 |
Again, my SDA kin tell me God led EGW to what to copy so all truth could be compiled in one volume by one author. God told EGW where to go to steal her information from and God then told her to lie about the real author of those writings and claim those writings as hers inspired by God. The reasoning of this is really extremely farout. Yet, that is what my SDA kin tell me. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1968 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, Jim Katz, who runs the San Diego Forum said that the topic of Ellen's plagiarism has never been directly advertised before. I know other general topics that appear less threatening have appeared in the Pacific Union Recorder for years. But I was at that meeting that Saturday, and I am only relating what I saw, for what its worth. But clearly even what seems like some positive news is met with skepticism here. Stan | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 307 Registered: 7-2005  |
The problem with adventism is that what seems to be positive news in time it turns to be another dissapointment. Sometimes I wish I must have more belief in God that something is changing in adventism, but from what Stan relate, I still see no positive news. Stan, please tell us more information, and if you had seen something which will satify my concerns which I'm sharing in this post. I assume that many of you have read the 1919 Bible Conference minutes, but if you don't here is a link where you can read it. At this conference, at 4 years after the death of Ellen White the leaders of the SDA church including it's President, AG Daniells, talked about the many problems created by Ellen White. This sounds as positive news, isn't it? No, because they had a goal: how to make Ellen White less authoritatively as the Bible without destroying the faith in her spiritual gift. They had the goal of becoming protestants, but retaining at the same time the adventist pedigree. From what you said Stan, and you may add more informations, the same goal is pursued by that forum. I will quote Dr. Hoyt:
I guess he's talking about the restitution of faith in Ellen White's gift, a different faith than White Estate inspires others to have, but in the end, a belief in her as God's gift for the church. He is challenging the church to paint a different and accurate picture of Ellen White, which will encourage many to have a belief based on historical facts, but certainly a belief in her as a prophet. The problem is that having this goal you may discuss Ellen White's mistakes as long as you want, without making a progress, because you presume that she was a true prophet. The apriori assumption that she was a true prophet will lead them not to question her, but what they expect from a true prophet. The goal is to lower the standard to a sufficient level for her to pass the tests of a true prophet. The winds of change will start in adventism when at these forums they will gather together to decide if Ellen White is a true prophet or not, putting the right question: "Can she be deceitful all his life about stealing from others and be a christian?"
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