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| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2002  |
I've got two questions I just want to throw out here to hear what people think or have experienced. (The second question will be in another thread.) I'd like to hear what you think about alcohol, or your experience with it. I'm not exactly asking "What do you believe about alcohol?", but I guess I'm curious about how you've all handled it. Even though I've escaped the Adventist theology against alcohol, the conditioning against it is very strong and I haven't fully escaped it. On one hand I simply don't like the taste of alcohol (beer is particularly repugnant to me). On another hand, the "culture" of wine has always been very appealing and interesting. But the taste is harsh to me. I remember once some roommates at SVA made some jello using vodka instead of water and were talking about how great it was, but all I could think of was that it tasted like cough syrup, and I couldn't very well pretend I liked that! (Haha, there's a big spiritual analogy in that!) Okay, but this came up because the other day my wife's sister brought a bottle of sweet wine made near their parents' home. I tried it (after much personal hesitation) and of course it was a bit harsh to me, but my wife & her sister thought it was way too sweet. So they put some ice in it. I tried it with the ice and thought it was much, much better. I drank the whole glass. Now the problem is that part of me felt downright sinful in doing that or even considering it. Do you know what I mean? Has anyone experienced that? I know it's not sinful, but the conditioning is annoying indeed! So generally I've just stayed away from testing it altogether. Anyway, let me know what you think! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 540 Registered: 7-2004  |
Ditto! I've been conditioned exactly the same way. I also know that theologically there is nothing wrong with consuming alcohol (without getting drunk), but it feels sinful, smells revolting, and the one time I unintentionally had wine at communion it was way too strong and I'll never make that mistake again. I'm so bad that the one time I've ever had Nyquil I spit it out because I couldn't stand the alcohol taste! At least I know I'll never be an alcoholic. Although it is interesting that all the beverages we were conditioned to stay away from have lots of antioxidant benefits (wine, coffee, tea)--I won't touch any of them because they're all repulsive to me. Just goes to show anyone can be conditioned against anything, but it did nothing spiritually for the heart. Oh, that's right. It made it easier for the Holy Spirit to have access to the brain. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 338 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow. That was a quick reply, Raven! What time zone are you in??? (I'm in Japan, hehe) Yeah, responsible drinking tends to have a lot of health benefits, even as Paul noted to Timothy. Some friends noted that when they take communion with real wine, the burning sensation reminds them of the Holy Spirit, like "fire". I like the taste of grape juice, though, haha. And not in the insultingly small communion-sized portion!  (Speaking of communion, I had a nice experience with that the other week which I wrote about here). | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 544 Registered: 7-2004 |
Eastern time zone (Ohio). Speaking of Communion experiences, I know there are many different ways of doing Communion. We're in a Lutheran church (LCMS) and I've been taking Communion there for 9-10 months. The way they do it in their contemporary service, everyone comes up single file and receives the bread from one person (pastor or elder) and the wine (or grape juice) from another elder. The pastor hands out the bread, while we take our own cup, probably because we're choosing between wine or grape juice. Anyway, I'm used to (from SDA and many other services) helping myself to the communion wafer out of the plate. At the Lutheran service the pastor hands it out and I've always taken it from him. Couldn't figure out why it seemed awkward. Recently I observed that I'm the only one in the entire church to do it that way. Everyone else lets the pastor (or elder) put the bread in their cupped hand. I was trying to figure that one out. Suddenly I realized Lutherans believe Communion is a means of grace. Do we take grace or do we receive grace? I should be passively receiving grace. Now I do it like everyone else. Funny how I had to understand what I was doing and why before I could make the change. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2006  |
Great question, I am pleased to see that we can chat about REAL issues here. It is funny because I never had a problem with alcohol, I always, ever since I was in high school, struggled with the story of Jesus making wine at the wedding party and every one liking his the best! That is not how anybody at any party talks about grape juice! I don't care how good it is. This is kind of embarrassing but painfully true. I noticed that after eating steak or pizza or cheese based veggi loafs.. (special K loaf) that I would be "backed up" for several days, but now, if I drink a beer or a glass of wine, this problem is simply non-existant. So I asked some of my freinds that have always drank if they noticed the same thing... Their response was, "Of course, everybody knows that!" well, I didn't, I was always told it was BAD. (This is a problem my Dad has had forever) So now, when I eat a huge pizza and the next morning everythin "works out well" I can't help but think of the words of Paul, written to Timothy, "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." I Timothy 5:23 (NIV) Now having said that I must admit that I understand your "conditioning" I suffer the same way with "unclean meats." I love meat, but feel weird, or reluctant to eat it if it is "unclean." | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4606 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, the conditioning has impacted me, too. I've drunk wine in the past, but Richard and I made a conscious decision not to drink when we started doing former Adventist ministry because so many of the people we work with are so "on the edge" in relationship to the church. We've actually had occasions related to ministry to be glad we made that decision. Richard has admitted that he'd be very attracted to wine if he let himself be, and that he thinks he could easily become a drinker. So for us the decision not to drink has actually served two purposesóbut truly, abstinence is not part of the gospel! Moderation is biblical, yesóbut abstinence is never commanded. I'm continually amazed by the depth of the early imprinting we all received in these food areas. It's almost visceral; logic can't dismantle it. Praise Jesus that the kingdom is not about food or drink! Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 115 Registered: 2-2003 |
Timmy, my husband travels to Europe frequently on business. He is in Switzerland now. A few nights ago his European associates took him out to a quaint little cafe high in the mountains at a dairy farm. My husband was worried about the consequences to his digestive track of eating too much cheese. His dinner companions told him that he needed to either drink wine or hot tea with his meal and there wouldn't be a problem. I had never heard this before and now I 've heard it again. When he told me this, the same text came to my mind -- "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." I Timothy 5:23 (NIV) Colleen said: "Praise Jesus that the kingdom is not about food or drink! " Amen!!! | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2006 |
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| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 138 Registered: 7-2004 |
I actually went through some rebellious years as an adventist and got "drunk". I didn't enjoy it much. But I would go out with my friends and drink socially. Nowadays, I really think having a glass of wine with dinner is nice, though I only do it occasionally, like twice a month maybe. I have no desire to have more and it usually just makes me sleepy. But I think there are some benefits in the relaxing, the antioxidants, etc. The jews have wine with dinner, and it goes back so far in the Bible that I don't think it is bad unless you abuse it, or unless like you Colleen, feel that you are hindering someone else. Bb | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2809 Registered: 3-2004  |
I will have wine occasionally or another kind of alcoholic drink occasionally. Occasionally means 1-3 times per year. When I first had an alcoholic drink, I did not know it was the sugar in the drink that really hurt me( like pina coladas, margaritas). So now I will have an occasional drink that does not have added sugar. Thank God that salvation is not about food and drink. God you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 347 Registered: 5-2004 |
I can so relate here I am very fascinated by the social idea of wine...and my husband and I have tried just about everything in the time we've been "free"...but just can't handle the taste. We were both in his sisters wedding two weeks ago and in the limo the groomsmen poured everyone some champagne. I choked through the whole thing...but every time I raised the fluke to my lips I got this image of drinking from the bottle of rubbing alcohol in my medicine cabinet. Well, at least I'm not being harmed by not drinking...and I can keep trying all the times I wish | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2000 Registered: 3-2005 |
The communion question is quite interesting. Since it is quite apparent that Jesus drank real wine when the communion was first instituted, then wouldn't churches want to follow the example of Jesus, and even an implied command to use bread and wine? This is why Lutheran and Reformed churches use real wine, but at our PCA church they do have an option for grape juice, but to me this is an interesting question. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 581 Registered: 1-2003  |
Raven, I was very blessed reading your post and insight re: taking and/or receiving of communion. Thanks, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 246 Registered: 4-2005  |
It is common knowledge that you can train the pallet to enjoy tastes previously one disliked. I used to hate cooked carrots, and avacado and spinach. I now love all three, just by eating "some" each time it was offered. So it is with wine or alcohol. One must "introduce" it to your pallet, thus train the pallet to enjoy it. Start with a light or white wine on the sweet side, Columbia-Crest Gewurtztraminer is refreshing. Wine cleans the pallet, preparing it to enjoy the next bite of food with even greater satisfaction. Again, it is "to each his own." There is something romantic, warm, sociable about wine that somehow does not fit with other drinks. One or two tastes and judging wine to be gross or awful, is judging against wine unfairly. A gluton and Vegeberger trained tongue cannot be expected to enjoy the pleasures, true pleasures of wine, without some education. Send your taste buds to kindergarten and keep going! I predict, most will be glad you did. Just one man's opinion. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 494 Registered: 6-2004 |
I always found the absurd SDA teaching that wine was just grape juice in the Bible. I've never seen anyone get drunk on juice before. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 197 Registered: 6-2006  |
I'm curious to know where abstinance from alcohol came from. Did it come from the early church, or the Victorian era? And what historical data does the SDA church have to back up that wine was simply grape juice? I always understood that "nectar" was the word used for juice. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2006 |
Jwd, Good point. I would also like to add that a good Gewurtztraminer or just about any good quality wine will actually bring out the flavor in food. Also some foods bring out the flavors of the wine. They really compliment each other. When I first experienced this I really felt like I had been cheated all these years. But thanks to the good Lord and Holy Spirit, I have a lot of life left, and lots of time to enjoy it. Praise Jesus! ts | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2001 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well it is not just SDAs that have hang-ups about alcohol. The Southern Baptist Convention has made taking alcohol illegal just recently, and Calvary Chapel, where I recently attended is also legalistic about alcohol. Lutherans and Reformed are not hung up on this issue by and large. But my understanding of U.S. history has it that the Women's Christian Temperance Union was very influential in the 19th century, but it also comes from the pietistic Revivalist movement led by one Charles Finney. Finney used to brag that when he came to town for a crusade, that he could close all the bars down in town, and to a certain extent it was true, but Finney was and still is the most revered "evangelist" in American history, and fundamentalist influences streaming from that era are still prominent. The spirit of fundamentalism is not very different from the spirit of Adventism. In fact, it is interesting, but there is a website run by a Baptist fundamentalist who is very critical of Adventism, but if you peruse that web site you will find the same spirit there as they are condemnatory of mixed swimming, alcohol, and other things that will remind you of Adventism--The old pot calling the kettle black syndrome. Any church that tries to add rules of behavior as conditions of membership that are either contradictory to scripture--such as no wine drinking--or that are not in scripture should be avoided as these churches are just another version of the Galatian heresy, that to somehow maintain a certain level of spirituality, then you must abstain from such and such etc. Stan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2002 |
On another thread awhile back I shared that when I ran across the section about the list of abstinances for Nazarites, they listed "wine" but they also listed "grape juice" too! So clearly in Bible times they was no confusion about whether "wine" meant fermented or unfermented grape juice. It's a purely Adventist distinction. Thank you, everyone, for sharing your stories, thoughts & feelings on this! It's very healing, very cathartic, and I think I already feel some of that "conditioning" ebbing away. Praise God! Truly, there is something to James' admonition to "confess" to one another and pray together so that you may be healed. Colleen---AMEN!! Jwd, yes, about the "something romantic" about wine, definitely! I didn't begin to understand it until after meeting the Lord and drinking of His Spirit, and then reading Song of Songs after that. His love is like wine... why? Because it's something special between lovers. Maybe because it kind of disarms you and takes an edge off, and your soul becomes a little more "naked"... truly you would only drink this with someone you truly love and trust. Though I've never experienced that with natural wine, I began to understand it because I'd experienced it with the wine of His Spirit. At prayer meetings when we confessed to one another, shared, prayed for one another and together, worshiped God, and waited on Him together, there were times when our "edge" was taken off and the things of our hearts were laid out there ... we became more intimate with one another, and the love of the Lord seemed to palpably overflow between us all. It was truly and wonderfully intoxicating beyond words. HE is truly & wonderfully intoxicating beyond words!! His Spirit softens our hearts like wine softens our inhibitions---our protective barriers and the "walls" we erect because we're afraid of being rejected. As He does that, we become more intimately aware of ourselves and of His love for us, and we share truly Godly intimacy with one another---an intimacy in His love that is holy, pure, and completely wonderful! I begin to understand in those times what Paul means by, "Don't be drunk with wine, but instead be filled with the Spirit!" I fall down with the bride of Song of Songs because I know it's true, "His love is better than wine!" (And I marvel at how He says in return, "Your love is better than wine!") God, You're so beautiful! | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 247 Registered: 4-2005 |
Stan, you make some very solid remarks in comparison between the strict life-enhancing-restricting "church standards" of Adventism with the rediculous rules of conduct held by certain other churches, such as certain Baptist's. Recently we heard directly about no mixed bathing at a lake setting. Good grief! What difference do they make between that and boys and girls in physical ed shorts on the same playing field? Just one added thought about restriction of wine or alcohol for that matter. The Hebrew word for wine (not grape juice) is "yayin." It's meaning is "to effervesce; wine as fermented. When we turn to the New Testament, in 1 Tim 5:23 "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments," Paul's advice to Timothy, the Greek word used here for wine is "oinos." What is the root of this word but the Hebrew "yayin" again - - fermented wine. Jn 2, Jesus first miracle in Cana, the text that is probably the most crucial to this discussion, and we find the word used is the same "oinos" with the same root meaning of "fermented." Jesus did not found the Welches Grape Juice company that day; but may very well have created the best Cabernet Sauvignon ever made ! And the one text that always causes me to raise my eye brows - just a bit - and smile - just a bit - is Ps 104:14-15 where God is given credit for "real wine" - vs. 15 "And wine which makes man's heart glad, so that he may make his face glisten with oil, and food which sustains man's heart." The word "yayin" is used here; again it is fermented wine, or wine with alcoholic content. One glass of wine, unless it is a very large glass, does not have the effect of making one's heart merry or glad. I realize my next comment could be taken out of context; but it seems to me (a most subjective position, I grant you - and with no Biblical solid evidence to support me) - yet it seems to me that here we have a suggestion (?) that while God forbids drunkenness, He does not mind one drinking enough wine to put him in a jolly, happy, merry mood. (here is where my eye brows raise and I smile) But given the lack of modern wine production in Biblical times, it is possible that the alcoholic content was much higher than our average 12.5% today; so perhaps an average glass of wine "would make one merry." :-) It's a thought! :-) Spurgeon commenting on this text reveals sadness for the times when "man debases himself" by drinking too much; yet he calls wine "this gladdening product of the wine." Note his word "gladdening." Of course we could go on to discuss caffine drinks. I wonder if Adventists secretly blame God for creating the coffee bean? Something to think about the next time you lift a glass in a holy toast to our sovereign God ! |
