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Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 334
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm lucky, White Estate is coming to my town!

The next weekend Wiliam Fagal will come in Bucharest to discuss some Ellen White problems. Here in Romania the issue of Ellen White anti-trinitarianism is becoming a issue of debate. Even the director of our publishing house owned by the church (like Review and Herald in USA) has stirred some turmoil by openly stating his anti-trinitarian views. He and others well-known members and leaders of the church share his views. William Fagal will touch also the internet problem.

I want to ask those who know William Fagal to give me more information about his position on the subject of Ellen White anti-trinitarianism. And if someone has some good quotation of Ellen White anti-trinitarian statements, be free to share them.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4651
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The original William Fagal started Faith for Today, the first Adventist TV program. I don't know anything about this Fagal's specific beliefs, but I'm sure he is representing the Adventist party line. At this time, the Adventist party line is Trinitarianism.

I'm sure Jeremy can share some quotesóthere are some really good ones he's shared in the past. George Knight, the Adventist historian, said in his notations in the republished heritage edition of Questions on Doctrine (published by Andrews University, not an "official" Sda publishing house) that there is today a growing movement within Adventism that is returning to anti-trinitarianism because it is the original position of the church and hence more authentic. Your publishing director is an evidence of this movement.

Colleen
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1508
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are many quotes from EGW (some of which I posted here) that teach polytheism. Besides those, here are some other quotes from EGW that deny the deity of Christ, etc.:


quote:

"There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that 'God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'" (Lift Him Up, page 235, paragraph 3.)

"The highest of all angels, He girded Himself with a towel, and washed the feet of His disciples." (Manuscript Releases, Volume Twelve, page 400, paragraph 1.)

"Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest angel in heaven." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 01-14-1909, paragraph 4.)

"The Eternal Father, the unchangeable one, gave his only begotten Son, tore from his bosom Him who was made in the express image of his person, and sent him down to earth to reveal how greatly he loved mankind." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 07-09-1895, paragraph 14.)

"But every such plea was cast aside when Christ died as a substitute for the sinner. He who was made equal with God bore the sin of the transgressor, and thereby made a channel whereby the love of God could be communicated to a fallen world, and his grace and power imparted to those who came to Christ in penitence for their sin." (The Signs of the Times, 02-05-1894, paragraph 10.)

"The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each." "God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Eight, page 268, paragraphs 1 & 3.)

"After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God says to his Son, 'Let us make man in our image.' As Adam came forth from the hand of his Creator, he was of noble height, and of beautiful symmetry." (Spiritual Gifts, pages 33-34.) [Notice the absence of the Holy Spirit in that quote.]

"Before the fall of Satan, the Father consulted his Son in regard to the formation of man. They purposed to make this world, and create beasts and living things upon it, and to make man in the image of God, to reign as a ruling monarch over every living thing which God should create. When Satan learned the purpose of God, he was envious at Christ, and jealous because the Father had not consulted him in regard to the creation of man.

[...]

"While some of the angels joined Satan in his rebellion, others reasoned with him to dissuade him from his purposes, contending for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to his Son. Satan urged, for what reason was Christ endowed with unlimited power and such high command above himself! He stood up proudly, and urged that he should be equal with God.

[...]

"At length all the angels are summoned to appear before the Father, to have each case decided. Satan unblushingly makes known to all the heavenly family, his discontent, that Christ should be preferred before him, to be in such close conference with God, and he be uninformed as to the result of their frequent consultations. God informs Satan that this he can never know. That to his Son will he reveal his secret purposes, and that all the family of Heaven, Satan not excepted, were required to yield implicit obedience. Satan boldly speaks out his rebellion, and points to a large company who think God is unjust in not exalting him to be equal with God, and in not giving him command above Christ. He declares he cannot submit to be under Christ's command, that God's commands alone will he obey. Good angels weep to hear the words of Satan, and to see how he despises to follow the direction of Christ, their exalted and loving commander." (Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3, pages 36-38.)

"Satan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God's dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God's dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone.

"The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him." (The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume One, page 17, paragraphs 1-2. Also see pages 18-19.)

"Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. But when God said to His Son, 'Let us make man in our image,' Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man, and because he was not, he was filled with envy, jealousy, and hatred. He desired to receive the highest honors in heaven next to God." (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 145, paragraph 1.)




Notice that in that last quote, she says that Satan was next to Christ but that he wanted to be next to God. That means that Christ was not God and was not equal with the Father!

Jeremy
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 2394
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, Will you be attending the meetings? If so, please share them with us on here.
91steps
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Username: 91steps

Post Number: 98
Registered: 8-2005


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, I used to work at the GC and for the life of me I can not recall having met Mr. Fagal. I do think he came on board there shortly before the Lord blessed me and I was able to leave that place. Please keep us informed of the web of deciet they will be spreading.
Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 335
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I will attend the meeting. I will not have the right to ask questions because every church from Romania will send some of their local leaders, and I was invited by my adventist scholar friend mentioned previously in my posts.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2833
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, You will be remembered in my prayers as you attend these meetings.
Diana
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 824
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

William Fagal was stationed at the White Estate Branch at Andrews University for many years. I don't know if he still works at the AU Branch. Through the years, I have had several contacts with William Fagal by email. For example, Elder Fagal emailed to me the following response when I asked him about Ellen White's funeral:

"Thank you for contacting the Ellen G. White Estate. Her funeral took place on Sabbath, July 24, 1915. She was not actually interred, however, until Thursday, August 26. (How's that for funeral trivia?) Yes, I know what you are wondering, but I don't know why the interment was delayed so long."

He loves to argue about the writings attributed to Ellen White. Without any doubt, he is passionately viewing the world through the lens of Ellen White. Jacob, keep us informed about his forthcoming visit to Bucharest, Romania (i.e., the type of questions that were asked and in what spirit or tone they were asked, et cetera). It is like having our own FAF investigative reporter there to get the facts surrounding the event.

Dennis Fischer

Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 368
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if it helps, Jackob, but remember the older editions of the Adventist hymnal for years and years omitted the last line of "Holy, Holy, Holy" and replaced it with a non-trinitarian line.

"God in three persons, blessed Trinity" was replaced with "God over all who rules eternally".

In the link Jeremy provided, he showed how Ellen White seemed to go to great pains to avoid mentioning the word "Trinity" in her writings. Instead she used these ambiguous expressions:

"three great powers of heaven"
"three great personal Dignitaries"
"three holiest beings"
"three great Worthies"
"three holy dignitaries of heaven"
"the Dignitaries of heaven"
"the highest dignitaries of heaven"


Additionally, other Adventist pioneers did seem to proclaim their anti-trinitarian-ness openly, and she did not condemn or correct them. This leads me to suspect that she actually may not have been silent on condemning Trinitarian beliefs, but I suspect that her writings may have been altered, edited, or sections may have been removed by the White Estate / SDA church. It wouldn't be the first instance they did so.

*****

I just spent some time going through Chris' series of posts about the Trinity (cited by him in the link from Jeremy above). Wow! Belated thanks, Chris!
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 2395
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Generally SDA churches don't have funerals and weddings on Saturdays. I guess EGW was the exception. I asked how come to several Adventists and was told by each of them it is because funerals and weddings cause one to do too much work on Sabbath and they want to avoid the work involved. I guess they'll do the funeral work on Sabbath for Ellen.
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 202
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why did EGW keep calling and referring to Jesus as an angel??!!! Did she not understand the difference between angels and God?? AAARRRRRGGGGHHH!!!! If that's the case, then there is no God and there are only degrees of angels. Honored angels and bad angels.

I wish you well Jakob! God bless you and keep you from either going cross-eyed or having a coronary from frustration!!!

:-) Leigh Anne
Insearchof
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Post Number: 91
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EGWs silence on the anti-Trinitarian beliefs of the pioneers was one of the key factors in my rejection of her as a prophet. It seems unbelievable to me that God would not care enough about His nature to give Ellen a clear word on the matter.

She neither clearly agreed or disagreed with the anti-Triniarians. You would think that either she would have a clear word from God that 1) the anti-Trinitarians were right, or 2) that they were wrong.

The fact that she was silent (or at the very least obscure) was one of the things I could not rationalize in my mind. It seems strange to me that the early SDA church (and it is still true today to some degree) struggled through the major points of Christian doctrine that the Church had already worked through centuries before.

I guess that is what happens when a sect refuses to acknowledge or accept any 'church' or doctrine but their own...

ISO
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1517
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne,

You asked: "Why did EGW keep calling and referring to Jesus as an angel??!!!"

Because she didn't believe that Jesus is God.

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on September 24, 2006)
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 203
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

I'm sure she knows by now!

I never thought of asking this, but does the average Adventist deny that Jesus is God? Also, are the examples you posted common knowlege among SDA's?

Leigh Anne
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1518
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Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne,

Some Adventists hold onto the original SDA teaching, the Arian idea that Christ was created or had a beginning in some way and is not eternal (and that there is no Holy Spirit). A lot of them would say that Jesus is God, but they believe that He is not eternal and is not "the one true God" (so they have two gods).

As for mainstream Adventists, they would also say that Jesus is God, but they really believe that He is a God--not the only one true God, but a separate being from the Father and the Holy Spirit (in other words, one of three gods). Also, most of them would say that they believe Jesus is on an equal level with the Father, but their teachings such as their belief in a "Great Controversy" between Christ and Satan, etc., teach otherwise--and so they don't really think of Jesus as even being on an equal level with the Father.

Adventism also has a Gnostic view of Jesus' incarnation and humanity. They separate His humanity and divinity, and basically make Him into two persons--so that the man Jesus is not God.

As for the quotes I posted, I think some of them are pretty common knowledge, such as the ones about Satan being jealous of Christ and His position.

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on September 24, 2006)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4663
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne, that's an interesting question. I believe most Adventists today say that Jesus is God. But I know from experience that my understanding of Him was not as an equal to the Fatheróhe was more like a "demi-god"ómore meek and mild, more pitying and self-abnegating, weaker somehow. God the Father was the remote, powerful, wrathful, overarching "god" who deigned to allow Jesus to sacrifice Himself.

While Adventists use the right words, their functional understandings of Jesus are not even close to what I've discovered since jettisoning Ellen. It's hard to explain verbally the differences, but words like sovereignty, Lord of lords, "sufficient", one with the Father, etc. come to mind. These terms had little actual meaning to me as an Adventist. They were labels, like "secretary" or "queen" or "gardener" or "doctor" are labels. They had nearly no personal meaning or significance, and they meant what Adventist theology allowed them to meanówhich wasn't much!

Praise Jesus for being our soveriegn Lord and King and Creator and Savior before whome we ALL will bow!

Colleen
Agapetos
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Post Number: 379
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Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"jettisoning Ellen"----great expression!!

And so very true about the wonderful meaning & beauty of His names! Jettisoning Adventism has felt like if you had something that kept you from tasting the full flavor of food and then it was suddenly removed you get the incredible new and wonderful flavors of food... that's what He is like now and His Word!
Agapetos
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Post Number: 380
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Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 2:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmm, "taste and see that the Lord is good"... before I couldn't quite "taste" how really good He is! :-)
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 204
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's so interesting. It makes me wonder what my husband thinks every time he comes to church with me and hears the way Jesus is described. It also inspires me to do a Jesus is God bible study!

Jakob, please tell us how the weekend turns out and give us a report! I'm curious to know how it goes...

binecuv’ntare,

:-) Leigh Anne

(I visited a Romanian/English dictionary)
Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 336
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Monday, September 25, 2006 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is the schedule. Keep in mind that we speak another language, I guess that the meeting will be just a brainwash session, not adressing the true problems.

Friday 19.00-20.30 Last days prophets: biblical prophets or false prophets?

Saturday
9.00-10.30 "Through a prophet" How God used Ellen White in guiding our church
11.00-12.30 The work of a true prophet
15.00-16.30 Trinitarian statements of Ellen White: What she really wrote about this subject
17.00-18.30 Hermeneutics: How we can understand correctly the writings of Ellen WHite

Sunday
9.00-12.00 Bicycles and harnessing a horse: Can be the prophet of the XIX century relevant for the XXI century?
Ellen White and her critics: what can we say about those internet pages

As you can see, the problesm of the critics are the last in the schedule and just few hours dedicated. I will post regularly here to keep you informed.


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