| Author | Message | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2004 |
Can someone give me some ideas how to understand Romans 3:31 and 6:14,15. Paul talks about establishing the law and how we should not sin because we are not under the law. I found a magazine called "Hidden Truths - Amazing Facts Revealed." Of course by the title you can tell you is behind it. As I read it I was having a hard time coming up with a good counter argument to these 2 texts. I do have more questions about other positions, but those can wait for another day. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2004 |
I may have some answers in a few weeks. I started BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) and we are studying Romans. It is so wonderful and is a world-wide non-denom study. There are mens and ladies groups. We studied Romans 1 so far, and I learned SO much. I'll keep you posted when we study those texts. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4690 Registered: 12-2003  |
Schasc, context is everything. Amazing Facts will never use these these texts in context. Have you ever had anyone "quote" you to other people by taking a phrase from one conversation and a sentence from another, recombining them, and making it sound as if you said something you never said? (I know I've certainly had that happen!) That is what Adventists do when they use those texts you mentioned above. They remove them from their context, and they cause them to say something completely different from the original. In Romans 3, Paul is making the case that justification is ENTIRELY by faith. Verses 27-30 declare that man is justified by faith "apart from observing the law". But, in verse 31, he is introducing his statement that he is not an antinomian. In other words, by saying justification is totally apart from the law, he is NOT saying a person may then sin to his heart's content. Further, he is acknowledging that the law is "holy, righteous, and and good" (Romans 7:12). But this holy, righteous, and good law, Paul continues in ch. 7, "produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." (v. 13). In other words, the law came from God for a purpose. It was not bad or evil, but it had a specific purpose. As Paul says in Romans 5:20, the law was added so that "the trespass might increase. but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in deatih, so also grace might reign through righteousness..." You really need to read Paul's entire treatise from Roman 1 through Romans 8 to understand his argument. He is creating a very detailed, step-by-step legal argument to explain that sin reigned in mankind from the time of Adamóeven before there was a law (Romans 5:12-14). Romans 1 to 3:20 explain that ALL men, both Jew and Gentile, are equally condemned before God, even though the Jews believed they were spiritually superior because of having the law (see Romans 2). Yet before there was ever law, people could be justified before God through faith in Him and His promises, as Abraham was (Romans 4). God gave the law, Paul explains in Romans 5:20 to Romans 6, to make us aware of sin in our lives. By people's becoming aware of the behaviors that are sinful, sin actually increased. It was like the situation of a hotel posting signs on balconies, "Do Not Spit". Many more people actually spit off the balconies after the signs were installed than they had before, because the sign actually made them think about spitting. That was the function of the law. It was to point out sin and thus to cause sin to increase, bringing people to a point of despair and recognition of their need of a Savior. Romans 6 begins Paul's discussion of the struggle between the flesh and our new desire to live by the Spirit when we are in Christ. As he explains in Romans 8:10, when we are in Christ our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of righteouness. Romans 6 begins his discussion of the struggle between the old habitual life in the flesh and the new, born-again life in the Spirit. When we have been made alive by the Spirit, we finally have the ability actually to choose to live by the spirit instead of having no power to resist sin. Before we are born again, our spirits are dead, and we truly have no freedom to choose righteousness. But now, we realize that sin is still at work in our unglorified bodies. And now, alive in the Spirit, we can choose to offer ourselves with our temptations to Jesus (Romans 6:13) and "not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires" (Romans 6:12). And then come your two verses in question: "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" The Amazing Facts approach to this passage is that sin is breaking the law. In the preceding chapters in Romans, Paul has established that sin reigns in humanity APART from the law, and further, that the law was given for the purpose of INCREASING sin. But here, in Romans 6:15, Paul is vehement is saying that even though we're not under the law, we're not supposed to sin! But this sin is NOT about the law. this sin, as he is explaining in chapters 6-8, is our intrinsic, inherited sin that causes us to commit sins. But now, under grace, we have new power to resist sin. We can not offer ourselves to God, and Romans 8 makes it clear that we learn to live by the Spirit. Amazing Facts does not believe humans have spirits that are separate from their physical bodies. They do not actually teach that people have literal spirits that are born dead and that literally come to life when the Holy Spirit indwells us and connects our spirits to God. Understanding this reality makes Paul's argument make sense. We're not just bodies dealing with the Holy Spirit. We have mortal, unglorified bodies that will always be prone to sin until the resurrection. We have spirits that are born sinful and dead but which come to life when we accept Jesus. This dichotomy of having a living spirit in a still-dead body creates the internal conflict which Paul describes here. Adventism explains this conflict in terms of our relationship to the law. Paul explains this conflict in terms of our relationship to Jesus through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. My suggestion, Schasc, is that you take some time to read Romans from the beginning through at least chapter 8. This book is the most detailed, classic explanation of salvation in the Bible. In context, the texts you mention fit perfectly into Paul's discussion. You might also enjoy checking out the Romans studies online on this forum. They take you inductively verse by verse through the book. We have studies through Romans 11:32 onlineówe're not yet done going through the book! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1527 Registered: 10-2004  |
Romans 3:31 has to be read in context. In verses 21-22, it says: "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;" (Romans 3:21-22a NASB.) Then, verses 28-31 say: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." The context tells us a lot. First of all, we do not nullify the Law through faith but rather establish it, because it is the righteousness of God through faith in Christ that the Law points to (verse 21). Thus we are establishing the Law and what it says. The Law was a shadow pointing forward to Christ (Hebrews 10:1). Also, "the Law" certainly does not mean the Ten Commandments (literally, Ten Words). "The Law" is never used to refer exclusively to the Ten Words. This is also clear from the previous verse, which talks about circumcision (which is outside the Ten). He mentions the uncircumcised (meaning they don't keep the Law--they were not allowed to enter into the Old Covenant Law until they were circumsised, and they certainly hadn't kept the circumcision commandment if they were uncircumcised). And Paul is certainly not suggesting that the uncircumcised become circumcised, so that is why he asks are we then nullifying the Law? His answer is no, we are establishing it and what it prophesies and points to. The only way to obey the Law now that Christ has come is to "cast out" the Law (Genesis 21:10, Galatians 4:21-5:1) and listen to Christ alone who has given a new Law "like Moses" did (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, Luke 9:28-36). Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1528 Registered: 10-2004 |
I forgot to address Romans 6:14-15, but I see that Colleen did right before my post. I still can't understand how the SDAs get out of these verses which say twice that we are not under law, that we actually are under law! As Colleen said, it comes from their faulty definition of sin. Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 725 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hello Schasc, Great to "see" you again. I have missed seeing your cheery smile since we moved away. I hope everything is going well for you and your family. I am so glad you brought up the subject of Romans. I, like Bb, am in the BSF study of Romans this year. I have been a bit disappointed at the lack of strong New Covenant teaching thus far...but...as Bb said, we have only gotten through chapter 2. SDAs are not the only Christians who get hung up on the term "The Law". As Jeremy said, it is important to remember that the 10 Commandments are NOT "The Law" in and of itself. They are lumped together with 600 and some odd other laws God gave Moses for the Israelites. Never in the Bible does it specifically call the 10 Commandments the Law of Moses. In chapter 1, Paul talks of God's wrath against our sinful nature. At the end of the chapter he makes a list of sins that cause God to be angry - envy, gossip, murder, slander, disobedient to parents... Many of these sins are not even mentioned in the law. To bring the 10 commandments into play and say that Paul is telling us God is angry because we do not keep His list of rules is to miss the whole point. What the Holy Spirit revealed to me last week in the study of Romans 1 was that God's wrath was not brought about because people are "filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity..." His wrath caused Him to give these sinful people over because "they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God" (vs. 28). He wants our hearts, our surrender. When we fail to turn our lives over to Him, we then turn to our own sinful desires and depravity. His wrath is not against our "doing" but against our turning away from Him and going our own way. When we go our own way we fall into the envy, jealousy, rebellion that Paul then listed at the end of chapter 1. This week in BSF they had us look at Exodus 20 (the 10 Commandments) to see what commandments we do not keep. I know they are trying to show us that no one is able to "keep" the law and that we all need a Savior. But I strongly feel to look at the law is to be once again looking to ourselves and our own ability to be "doing" something. Colleen is right on to say that Romans needs to be seen in its entire message. Paul is setting the stage to prove our need for a Savior. Remember he was constantly hounded by Judaizers. He sets the stage that Jews and Gentiles are alike (sinful). Since they are alike God's plan to save all is the same - salvation through Jesus Christ alone...no more being born into it or following a set guideline (circumcision/sacrifice/law)...it is by the grace of God through His gift of Jesus Christ...the end...period...final... Paul sets the stage in Romans for this whole story. He said it best in Galatians when he asked the Jews why they would want to keep "doing" everything through the law as they had already tried year after year, century after century...for goodness sake...it hadn't worked...so Jesus came to take away all that trying!  OK....I have gone on long enough...please forgive me...I just love this subject... GIVE ME JESUS! Denise | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 726 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hey Bb, I would LOVE to email you regarding BSF each week. I think our SDA background give us a unique view of Romans and the New Covenant. I would love to discuss what you are learning with you. If you are interested, Colleen has my address. Denise |
