| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2129 Registered: 3-2005 |
"Though held by many, it is a hollow contention that if the death sentence pronounced at the final judgment against the unregenerate meant their annihilation the wicked would be getting off lightly and would be encouraged to regard the consequence of their sin without fear. (It may be interposed that far more does the expectation of the never-ending torment of finite creatures raise the question of the purpose that might be served by such retribution.) There is altogether no room for doubting that, first, at the last judgment God will mete out condign punishment in accordance with the absolute holiness of his being, and second, The Scriptures allow no place whatsoever to the wicked for complacency as they approach that dreadful day when they will stand before the tribunal of their Righteous Creator. This ultimate Day of the Lord is depicted as a day of indescribable terror for the ungodly, who will then be confronted with the truth of God's being which they had unrighteously suppressed and experience the divine wrath which previously they had derided. They will then learn at first hand that "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb.10:31). There is nothing light or laughable in the terrible scene witnessed by St. John in his apocalyptic vision: 15Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave[a] and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (Rev. 6:15-17) --------------------------------------------------------- I want to say, that we should not take any human author's word for anything. Everything must be tested by scripture. There are so many things in scripture that are absolutely firm and we can be dogmatic about. But this issue is difficult. Revelation contains a lot of symbolic language. The epistles don't really spell out clearly the doctrine of eternal torment. I know that the presentation of the opposition to the standard evangelical position does cause a lot of heated (no pun intended) debate. I agree with J I. Packer (who endorsed Hughes book, even though he does not agree with this one aspect) that this doctrine is not the dividing line between true and false Christians. Stan | ||
| Lesliedavidmead Registered user Username: Lesliedavidmead Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2006 |
The most interesting thing for me on the subject of death as opposed to eternal life is that the Savior's theme was not "the state of the dead" but rather, "If you believe on me you will never die." The theme of my former communion of course was the state of the dead and no one could demonstrate it so well as we. David | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 404 Registered: 10-2002  |
Jeremy, I really appreciate the first thought, thanks! Looking at Jesus' infinite-ness really widens one's appreciation for what He did for us. Hmm. At the same time, however, this is where our human logic begins to trip up... if He suffered infinitely, then is He still suffering? The book of Hebrews says "no", of course. The point of comparison I meant to draw originally, however, is that God can "condense" suffering -- condense in the sense of time or weight. The limitations of our logic become more apparent if we actually think of suffering in our own lives... how can we measure suffering? Does someone who dies in a car crash suffer more or less than someone who dies in an airplane crash? Does the person who lost a loved one to a terminal illness suffer more or less depending on the length of the illness? Did the people who died in the flood suffer more or less than the people who died in Sodom? Was the fall of Jerusalem worse the first or the second time, at the hands of the Babylonians or the Romans? In sight of all these things I have one resounding thought: I DON'T KNOW! I have no idea how God measures these things! In my own life when He's doing something with me (like taking me through a "wilderness" experience) I'm not able to judge when it's "enough" or when it's "not enough". Sometimes when I think I'm not ready, He says, "You're ready." And when I think I am ready, He says "wait." I think that our human logic cannot adequately explain the "why" behind the concept of eternal punishment. It's something that I can't fully understand, and whenever I see a logical explanation given for it, well, it's apparent that it's a logical explanation... based on human logic. I can't say what God must do and cannot do. Stan's question was a good one, and I thank God that we're His kids and are able to ask it. The wonderful thing is that while we don't have a "right" to question God, we certainly do have permission to! He doesn't mind. It depends on how we do it, how our hearts are. I thank God that He isn't the kind of Father that smacks His children when they innocently look up to Him and ask "Why?" The place I'm at about "annihilation" is this: eternal "dying" does seem more biblical than eternal "death"... but I can't understand it yet, and that's okay. I'm asking Him "why", but somehow I cannot even make myself concerned enough to devote time to this to study deeply. I'm not fretting over it at all. And that is refreshingly nice.  (Sorry if that sounds bad to anyone) In the end, I rest on what He's said -- even if I can't understand it. I'll trust it (even if I can't understand it) more than any logical explanations I can make to "fill in the gaps". One of the things that probably prepared me for this (prepared me for resting in the face of inability to understand) was when I thought of the flood in Noah's time. Could all those people have really been that wicked? It's hard to imagine. But I trust God, and He knows what's best. So somehow, yes, it was necessary. I know He is love, and I know He can see so much more than we can, so I can't judge what He's done/said/will-do, but submit to it (to Him!) because shoot, He's my loving Father, and He's leading us home into His arms. And that's just pretty darn cool. P.S. Thanks, Stan. I'm at a loss for words. Thanks again, brother. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 405 Registered: 10-2002 |
Welcome, David! Where are you from? Have you left Adventism? Tell us your story! Blessings in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2130 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ramone, Your post has really blessed me tonight. None of us are going to agree on all theological issues, but in the end, if we are trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ, we will be saved. I trust totally in the justice and grace of God. I like what Abraham said in Genesis 18:25: ? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" Whatever God does is perfectly just and right. It is so wonderful to trust in a God who is truly sovereign. David, Welcome to FAF! You have jumped in on one of really "hot" threads! Stan | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 301 Registered: 6-2005 |
David, Welcome! Good point re the focus of Jesus. And good humor "The theme of my former communion of course was the state of the dead and no one could demonstrate it so well as we." LOL so true. That woke me up more than my morning Java. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2132 Registered: 3-2005 |
Other respected evangelicals who have questioned the doctrine of eternal punishment are Dr. John Stott and very notably John Wenham. If you do a google search on John Wenham, you might be surprised about the number of conservative scholars who at least challenge some of the basic assumptions with the regard to the Greek grammar related to eternal punishment. John Wenham was one of the most respected Greek scholars in his day, and is quoted all the time by other conservative scholars who do believe in eternal hell, but they disagree with Wenham on this one point of eventual annihilation. In some of my research, I ran across statements about Charles Spurgeon admitting towards the end of his life, that at least annihilation doctrine was not a heresy in the same sense as other heresies. The great Calvinist hymn writer Isaac Watts also was sympathetic towards annihilationism. I love the writings of Jonathan Edwards, and he is famous for a sermon called "Sinners in the Hands of an angry God", but I just wonder if some of this sermon is a bit much and I will post a portion of it here: "The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell." O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment." "It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: For "who knows the power of God's anger?" -------------------------------------------------- Well, we certainly don't have sermons like that preached today in this post-modern world. However, does Edwards sermon go beyond what the Bible actually teaches? I am personally struggling with this issue right now. I know beyond any doubt that we as dead sinners have absolutely nothing to do with our own salvation. We cannot choose to be born again by ourselves, anymore than can a poor sinner choose to be born? So my basic struggle is this: If God in His infinite knowledge knew when he created man, that man would fall, and that as a result of this fall billions would be condemned, and in His infinite grace He would choose to save some, and not others, then, why would God create all these people and then torment them in hell for all eternity as Edwards describes so vividly above? I don't have the answers to the above questions, and I struggle with this, and thanks for allowing me to share this struggle with you. However, I am willing to accept whatever the Bible teaches. However, it seems totally just of God for Him to decide who He wants to save, as God was not obligated to save even one soul. I also see the justice in punishing unregenerate sinners for what they have done in their finite lifetimes, but I do struggle with the eternal wrath of God manifested by the literal torment in flames for all eternity. I must confess that I am still learning and struggling with the above concepts. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4732 Registered: 12-2003  |
You know, Stan, I've struggled with the same thing. Actually, I find it somehow related, in an oblique way, to the question of original sin. How could all those who are born millennia after Adam justly inherit his sin? The answers are not completely clear, but the outlines given in Scripture are based on "logic" we don't usually use normal human cause-and-effect thinking. We are sinners because Adam was the head of the human race. As Adam goes, so go we. That seems "unfair" and inexplicableóyet it is the argument the Bible gives. The sin we inherited is complete depravityóeternal depravity, heinous evilóand all through no conscious choice of ours. Yet we are guilty of eternal evil apart from the work of Jesus on our behalf. Those who do not receive the work of Jesus on their behalfóthose who die without forgiveness, are still in their eternally depraved state. Because they do not have the "covering" of Jesus and His eternal righteousness, they are eternally dead. And it seems that death, according to the Bible, is a condition of being separated from life but not necessarily non-existent. (In fact, quite certainly existent!) When I think about it in terms of original depravity and being without the eternal covenant of Jesus' blood, the eternal punishment makes more sense to me. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4734 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, David! So glad you've joined us! I look forward to hearing more of your story! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2875 Registered: 3-2004  |
Welcome David, I am glad that you are here. We are a lively bunch and we do not know "it" all. We are still learning. Let us know more about you when you are ready. The one thing that has been impressed on my mind is that we have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 831 Registered: 4-2000  |
The heresies of soul sleep, annihilationism, and conditionalism are supported more by human sentimentalism than by Biblical scholarship. It was Arnobius who first introduced this view in the fourth century. Who are we, as mere fallen humans, to downplay God's divine wrath? We can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His divine wrath. Certainly, we can trust the words of Jesus Himself: "These go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46 NASB). Without doubt, the quick-fix of annihilationism is Satan's favorite choice for himself and others. The unconfessed sins of the ungodly are forever before God--unforgiven and unforgotten. Therefore, this sober fact constitutes another valid reason for eternal punishment. Interestingly and strikingly, the Scriptures portray how the wicked will actually beg for annihilation in asking for the rocks and mountains to fall on them to hide them "from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16). However, in spite of their frantic pleas, suicide and/or annihilation will not be permitted to substitute for their "eternal punishment." Annihilaton does not constitute the ultimate punishment. Rather, annihilation would constitute the END of punishment. Truly, the ungodly in hell would like for annihilation to be true. Hell's worst feature is its duration. The Bible is very clear that hell only gets worse while simultaneously heaven only gets better. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1539 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen and Dennis, I agree that it is amazing to realize what Jesus has saved us from! And if God's mercy which He has bestowed upon us is infinite, then that has to mean that what we deserved but didn't get is also infinite. Otherwise, the mercy (not getting what we deserve) could not be infinite! I have a few more comments about some of the things discussed in this thread. Annihilationism is a very dangerous heresy, and can lead to universalism. If the penalty for sin is a finite period of burning in the Lake of Fire, then after the penalty has been paid, the wicked including Satan himself should be taken into heaven!! Also, if unbelievers do not have spirits, then that would mean that the sinful nature is simply the flesh, as Adventism teaches. But this is very unbiblical and would make it impossible for there to be an intermediate state! I would also like to know--how can spirits be burned up by physical flames of fire? I also want to add something about Revelation 21. To use this chapter to say that since all things are made new, and the former things have passed away, and there is no more suffering, etc., that there can be no more hell and that these things apply to the wicked and Satan himself (!!!), is to take this passage out of the context of the next chapter, not to mention the previous chapter (and it even ignores the passage itself!). In Revelation 22:15, we are told: "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." Notice that the wicked ARE (present tense) outside the city. They are NOT non-existent. But really all we have to do is look at chapter 21 itself! It says: "and He will wipe away every tear from their [the redeemed] eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (Revelation 21:4 NASB.) And then in verses 7-8, it says: "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Obviously, the things spoken about before verse 8 do NOT apply to the unsaved!!! To use this chapter as proof of annihilation is utterly laughable. Hughes' argmument is a total joke and makes a mockery of Scripture read in context! Quite frankly, I am surprised that all of those quotes from Hughes were not deleted. It made me very upset to read through them and read all of this false teacher's blasphemous statements and twisting of Scripture and using the same false anti-Biblical definitions that Adventism uses. This is not what those wanting to know what the Bible says on this issue need to be reading and in my opinion, it was not appropriate at all for the quotes to be posted on this forum. If it disturbed me, I can imagine that it disturbed others. Those who have come out of Adventism are sensitive to such things. One of the things Hughes said is: "Everlasting life is existence that continues without end," That is so blasphemous! Jesus did not purchase with His blood for me--"existence that continues without end"! He purchased eternal life for me, which is knowing God! Why make up our own foolish definitions of eternal life, when Jesus Himself tells us what eternal life is?!: "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3 NASB.) As for describing Hell--Jonathan Edwards is right that we cannot possibly make it sound bad enough! It is worse than we could ever imagine and there is no way we can ever "exaggerate" what it will be like! What's bad are all of the sermons preached that do not properly warn sinners about exactly what they are facing: absolute and eternal separation from God's love in the eternal Lake of Fire where they will experience His eternal wrath and justice for their "eternal sin" of rejecting Jesus Christ! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on October 06, 2006) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1540 Registered: 10-2004 |
I apologize if my above post should have been worded better. I am afraid that it may not come across very well.  I was just too upset to even post about it last night, and then tonight I got all upset and riled up all over again! Some of the quotes posted just disturbed me. I am a bit calmer now, though, thankfully. Most of the above was not directed at you personally, Stan--and I can understand that you are struggling with this issue. Jeremy | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2006 |
In 2005 Dennis wrote the following on this forum: "To get just a glimpse of God's wrath, please reread Exodus 32 (the golden calf i ncident). The consequence for evil is truly a big deal with God--not merely a momentary slap on the wrist after a profane life. Jesus spoke four times more often about hell than he did about heaven. The ungodly will wish that annihilationism and/or suicide would be their momentary fate. However, God will not allow "the rocks and the mountains" to quickly rub them out of their misery. There will be no quick-fix for the ungodly. Those who end up in hell would never want to be in heaven either. In fact, heaven would be hell for them. Thus, the only alternative to annihilation is quarantine. This is precisely what hell is (eternal separation from God). How could a loving God obliterate (extinguish) someone made in his very own image because they acted upon their God-given ability to disagree with Him? Indeed, this would do violence to His nature. God is so loving, just, and considerate that he even sustains the ungodly with an existence totally apart from himself. Indeed, He respects their final decision to be in perpetual rebellion against him." WalkOnWater response: Dennis: I read the above words with interest. Apparently you must listen to the Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff since you have outlined his position on hell fairly accurately. I have had the opportunity to debate Hank several times on this subject. Frankly, his position on hell troubles me. Note that I believe Hank to be a sincere Christian but personally I believe him to be wrong on this subject. There is not time to deal with all the points you bring up so here is one of the many ways I see Hankís position to be erroneous. Hank, and Evangelicals in general, teach that God is Sovereign, a God of might and power and absolute holiness. And so He is. However, I fear Hank's theology and Evangelical teaching on hell actually create a weak God instead of one of power and sovereignty. Furthermore, I believe that Eternal Torment Theology (ETT) severely weakens Christís victory over sin and Satan. When Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, the Bible makes it clear that Jesusí victory was a total victory. Hebrews 2:14 says, ìÖby his (Christ's) death he might destroy him who holds the power of deathóthat is, the devilóHebrews 2:14 In other words, Christ's death made Satan's destruction a sure thing. However, Hank says Christís victory was only sufficient to bring sin to a stalemate by ìquarantiningî it for all eternity. In other words, Christís horror on the cross of Calvary was not sufficient to have the total victory called for in Hebrews 2:14 in which Christ destroys Satan and his power of death. Instead ETT says that for all eternity Satan, the evil angels and billions of unsaved people will constitute a writhing cancerous mass of sin and hopelessness and horror in the universe. Never will God be able to return the universe to its former sinless state. Never will the universe be totally free of crying and sorrow and death and pain. Never will sin and Satan be destroyed but instead will be immortalized! If Hank is right, then the death of Jesus Christ was in actuality only a partial victory over sin, not a full victory. The Bible says ìdeath will be swallowed up in victoryî but ETT, in trying to show the sovereignty and power of God, actually makes God weak by making it impossible for Him to fully win the war with Satan. I believe in a God who will someday fully solve the sin problem. I believe in a God who will fully cleanse the universe of every trace of sin. I believe in a God who is so good and powerful that He will restore the universe to its previous sinless state. And I believe in a God who does all of this without ever violating His character of love and justice and never violates man's free will. What a God He is!! He is worthy of our praise!! WalkOnWater -------------------------------------------------- Correct theology never saved anyone but bad theology has led many to be lost. -------------------------------------------------- | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 346 Registered: 7-2005  |
I had heard Walter Martin answering a question about how he relates to adventism dogma of soul sleep, and how he evaluates the culti issue by this aspect. He said that he ask adventists a simple question "If you discover that eternal punishment is true, will you love God less than you love Him now?" If the answer is "Yes, I cannot love God if He is a monster, you definitely worship a different God than mine, your God is violating all the principles of justice", this adventist cannot be accepted as a christian brother. But if the answer is "No, I will still love God with all my heart even if I discover that he punish sinners endlessly", he is a christian brother. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4737 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Walkonwater. Richard moved your post to this thread because this is where the discussion regarding your topic is occurring. Jeremy and Dennis actually addressed your points just above your post. As Jeremy said, eternal hell does not suggest that the saved have any intersection with the damned at all. God is sovereign over allóeven over death and hell, and one does not need annhilation to make God good and powerful. Further, eternal hell absolutely IS part of the solution to the "sin problem". (I'd like to say that the term "sin problem" is hardly descriptive of SIN. Sin is more than a problem; it's a rip in reality that separates creatures from the source of life, and all creation groans in bondage to it.) God will wipe out all sin, according to Revelation, but that wiping out does not mean that all the results of sin will be eradicated. For example, Jesus will always have the scars in his hands and side in His glorified, resurrection body. Those are eternal witness to the horror of sin and will not be undone. Having results or consequences of sin, such as Jesus' scars, in the universe does not negate the end of sin. The Bible says that a NEW heaven and earth will be made. It doesn't say that earth will be restored to its original sinless condition. No, what we'll get is something NEW that has not been here before. And this new creation does not require all results of sin to be gone. Indeed, the existence of sin is part of our story and of the story of God's grace. In fact, without the "sin interlude", the entire act of Jesus' death, resurrection, glorification and of our new birth and eventual glorification would not have happened. The New Earth will be populated not with innocent people such as Adam and Eve but with people who have been healed from the mortal wounds of sin. They really will know both good and evilóand they will have been eternally rescued from evil and made righteous by the blood of Jesus. No, the new heavens and earth will not have every trace of sin removed. It will have SIN removed. Jesus will eternally carry the scars of sinóand God's eternal justice will oversee the etenral fate of the unrepentant in some dimension far away from the saints. Actually, Walk, the problem with the traditional Adventist view you hold is that Ellen makes the claims you have stated. Once you turn from Ellen and use the Bible alone, everything looks different. Colleen | ||
| Lesliedavidmead Registered user Username: Lesliedavidmead Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2006 |
Responding to the question of whether I had left Adventism, the answer is Yes, I have left it. The question that remains is whether I have left it all or not. I hope so, but I was born into it and was very loyal to it for 60 years. I guess you could say I am a slow learner. I wrote a paper about my leaving I call, Leaving Egypt. It is not theological and I wonder if anyone would like to read it and if so, how to make it available? Thanks for all those who welcomed me here. David | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2879 Registered: 3-2004 |
David, Like you I was loyal to the SDA church for 60 years, even after my name was taken off the church books and even though I attended occasionally. I, also was born into it and spent all my school years in SDA schools. SO, you are not the only slow learner. Jesus finally got a hold of me in January 2004. Yes, I would like to read about your journey with Jesus. Ask Colleen how to get it posted on here. She will let you know. Since leaving Aventism I have learned how awesome God is. Diana | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 153 Registered: 7-2005  |
Colleen, please forgive my ignorance of scripture, but where in the Bible does it say that Jesus will have the scars on his hands and side in his resurrection body throughout all eternity? Honestwitness | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1541 Registered: 10-2004 |
Walkonwater, I don't know whether you realize it or not, but your arguments come from the false EGW/SDA/Great Controversy worldview. You wrote:
Jesus did not "defeat" Satan on the cross, as if there was some sort of "war" going on that had to be decided. Jesus is the Almighty Sovereign Lord of everything and Satan has always been under His absolute control. What Jesus did was "destroy" (or "render powerless") Satan on our behalf--NOT on His own behalf! Here is the context of that verse: "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives." (Hebrews 2:14-15 NASB.) Again, it was on our behalf, that we mght be freed from death!
No, Satan's destruction has always been a sure thing. God is God. He did not have to "do" anything to make Satan's destruction a sure thing!
No, it is not a stalemate. Again, God has always been in control--even of sin. He is Sovereign. According to what you're saying, then for a time God is not in control of sin. If there is a "war" going on in which God has to "get the victory," then for a time He is not Sovereign and in control. According to your argument, God does not have "victory" over sin until He "annihilates" it. And this "victory" was not even guaranteed until Christ's death? Again, God has always been in control of sin.
Hebrews 2:14 is not talking about the future. It says that Jesus, through His death, already DID destroy Satan and his power of death--on our behalf. We are no longer held under it's power and we never have to die (we are never separated from Christ, not even by death!--Romans 8:38-39).
Revelation 21 says that only the redeemed inherit those things. But for the unsaved, it says, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which IS the second death.
They will not be immortalized--they will be eternally destroyed!
Again, God has always been in control of sin. Christ's death secured our salvation from sin.
Death will be swallowed up in victory only for the redeemed--not for the unsaved. "But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, 'DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:54 NASB.) And notice that that is before the Lake of Fire. And again, God is not in a war with Satan!!! He is fully in control of Satan--always has been and always will be.
Yes, He will "fully solve the sin problem"--but in His own Sovereign way and in the way which He describes for us in His Word.
He would violate His eternal justice if He did not repay an "eternal sin" (Mark 2:29) with "eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on October 07, 2006) |
