| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2006 |
attract sinners, law breakers, it does attract the law breaker, he puts that parachute on and as soon as the trials of life come, he wilts away under the heat. He has not come to the cross in true repentance and for pardon for his law breaking. Christ Jesus with incredible love took our punishment for us and offered us his shining robe of his righteousness to us undeserving, lying, thieving, adulterating, murdering lawbreakers to cover our miserable nakedness. Oh, what a savior. That humbles me as no foot washing ever could. The truth is we are either under the law or free from the law, you canít have it two ways. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Having been made free, have now entered into his Sabbath of rest and peace with God. He bore our shame and gave us his peace, howís that for love? If we are to have any success we must learn this scripture and learn it well. 2 Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. We have no reason to take pride or contention with us onto the battle field. And so I use my sword the Ten Commandants and pierce falsehood through, trusting in Gods word to drive him to the cross and having done thus, fulfilled my part as a soldier and warrior of the cross and move on to the next battle field. Now the Adventist will say ìOh yes, I keep the Sabbathî he may even say he keeps all the commandmentsî but ask, ìHave you always kept them?î To that he must say no if he will be honest. At best then, he is a reformed law breaker, ask him what would happen to some one who goes out and murders and is finally brought to trial years later, since murdering, has lived a clean life and done much good for humanity, and he says to the judge, I am sorry for breaking the law and have since done much good in my community. What will be the judgeís answer? ìIím sorry son but the law is the law and sentence I must carry out for I am a just judge. You get my drift, God is a just God and punishment must be made. Christ did take that punishment so that we might go free but we cannot enter into that freedom through falsehood and self deception. False hood and lies was Gods enemy and mans enemy from Adam until this day. I will appreciate any feed back/help on this. River. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2144 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi River, I didn't realize that your part one thread was continued on this part, but your post and the response of Alistair Begg on this subject is right on target, so I will re-post my previous response on this thread for the sake of continuity. I agree with you that using the law as a standard to measure the failings of the human race is a necessary means to preaching the gospel to all, because, if one doesn't realize their need for a Savior, and why they are condemned, then the gospel will not have meaning. As a former SDA, I thought I kept the law pretty good especially the Sabbath, but when I came to realize my need for Christ, and realized how holy the eternal demands of the Law really were, then I would run to the cross. Alistair Begg sums up the purpose of the Law in evangelism by the following discussion: Quote "People ask me all the time, 'What are we to do with the Old Testament?' And the answer is, you are to read the Old Testament in light of the fact that God has made himself finally and savingly known in Jesus. The arrival of Jesus is a watershed event in the unfolding panorama of God's purposes. And therefore it is not that the Old Testamentóthe Law and the Prophetsóare somehow or another from a bygone era, and we can set them aside over in a room somewhereóperhaps put them in a glass case and say 'Oh there were people who paid attention to the Law of God, you know.' No, rather they are foundational to all of our discovery of who is this suffering Servant to arrive? That's why we've said time and again, in hope that the penny may drop for some, what we say to our kids in Sunday School, that the way to understand the Bible is to keep your eyes on Jesus. Because in the Old Testament, he is expected. In the gospels, he is revealed. In the Acts of the Apostles, he is preached. In the epistles, he is explained. And in the book of Revelation, he is anticipated. So, when we come to an understanding of who Jesus is, the Law is part and parcel of that process. A few months ago I worshiped in another church far from here, at least a thousand miles from here for those who are always trying to find out where it was. And in the course in the worshipÖthe gentleman who was a well-meaning gentleman did a credible job of explaining to the congregation and to me that God loved me. And on the strength of the fact that God loved me, which he tried to make as much of as he could, he then exhorted me to give my life to God, in response to God's love. And he explained that the extent of God's love was so vast that Jesus died on a cross. I was sitting there thinking to myself, 'Imagine that I wasn't a believer and I'm listening to this message. How am I supposed to put two and two together here and get four? How do I get from the fact of God's love, to the death of Jesus, to the fact that I'm supposed to give my life to him?' You see, if Susan (my wife) comes to me and says 'I love you with all my heart and as a result of that I'm going to jump off a ten storey building to the ground below to show you how much I love you.' I'd say 'What possible value would there be in that? That's a strange way to express love.' But if she was to say, 'I love you with all my heart, and your need is so vast physically that I'm prepared to give a part of my life to you in order that in your potential death you can find in me your life,' I'd say, 'I can understand why you'd give yourself away because there is a need.' But until men and women are confronted with the Law of God, which shows them to be sinners, the idea of a savior dying on the cross doesn't really make sense. 'What is he doing up there?' 'Well he loves you.' Yeah I understand that, but wasn't there another way he could have done this? Why die on a cross? Because without the shedding of blood there will be no remission of sin. Of what? Of sin. Like what? Like stealing, lying, lusting, not loving God with all your heart and so on. You mean like breaking some of the ten commandments? Yes! So the Law of God is proclaimed to the well-healed middle class suburbanite in Cleveland who grades himself or herself on the curve. Driving in my car away from service I say to myself, 'Well I do have a few little things that probably need attention,' but I looked along the road and I saw old Billy boy there and frankly he is a disaster zone compared to me. So presumably however he gets graded, I'm gonna be OK. 'Because [God] will bring [the curve] way down and I'll be somewhere where I'll get through.' No you see, none of us can get past the first oneó'you shall have no other gods before me.' Now when I realize then that I have broken God's law and that I cannot get myself in a right relationship with God by playing catch-up in my external religion, then I say 'How in the world do you get out of this predicament?' When a man or a woman has reached the point where they say 'How do I get out of this predicament?' then they are ready to hear about the fact that the love of God extended to death of Jesus upon a cross because it was by his death upon a cross that he bore the punishment for the sin that I deserved to bearóthat he died in my place and he took my penaltyóthat the filthy rags of my rebellion are more than matched by the wonder of the robe of righteousness which is a royal robe that I don't deserve, which he gives to me, not because of anything in me, but on account of his exceptional grace." ------------------------------------------------- We need a lot more sermons like that preached by Alistair Begg. Stan | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2006 |
Stan: Thanks so much for your input on this. The Adventist stops on this scripture, Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. And from there goes back and attempts to fulfill the broken commandments with a feeble attempt at Sabbath keeping. I realize that there are more false beliefs in his life than that but if he ever realizes the futility of justification through thru commandment keeping I believe he will work the rest out himself. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4768 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, I've no doubt that God uses the law in many Adventists' lives to drive them to the desapir of acknowledging their sinfulness, just as He used it in the lives of Israel. For those who have not been "under the law", howeverólike the Gentiles as Paul explains in Romans 1 and 2, introducing the law would still leave questions and would likely not be sufficient to convince one of his own hopelessness. Romans 5 explains that before the law was given, death reigned, even when people did not break a command as Adam did when he ate the fruit. Further, Paul says that where there is no law, sin is not taken into account. Nevertheless, death reigned. The real issue people must realize is their original sin, their inherent total depravity. Understanding that the entire human race is condemned, as Romans 1,2, 3, and 5 and Ephesians 2 explain in detail is much more convincing than becoming aware of the law. There's a reason why Paul didn't preach the law when he preached. He taught the prophecies; he taught that people were dead in transgressions and sins. Romans 2 even explains that Gentiiles without the law have concsciences that condemn or convict them. God had provided ways far more convincing than merely the law to convict people of sin. Of course, the law still has value in this respect, but it will be more effective for some people than for others. The law was added so that sin would increaseónot so it would merely be exposed (see Romans 5:20-21). Galatians has to be telling the whole truth, as does Colossians 2:14-18. The law was nailed to the cross. It was temporary, coming 430 years after Abraham UNTIL Jesus. If it was temporary, we do not need it now, post-cross, even to convict us of sin. The Holy Spirit is far more powerful than the law! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, thanks for the feedback, it challenges me to think, that was the purpose of the submission. I want to carefully pick my battle ground with these folks, 1. They are my friends 2. I must not alienate them. 3. Truth must reign. How to do that? How do I get them to take another look at the Bible laying aside the denominational beliefs? I suppose most may already have a made up mind to ride that horse to the ground so is it worth all the effort and study? Four years ago I did my best to lay aside my own core beliefs and suppositions to rethink every avenue, I studied all the protestant beliefs, not just the Adventist, how ever the Adventist belief was the most challenging for it has so many twist and turns and it helped me to see my own profound doctrines even more clear, however I know that it is pie in the sky to think that all people are prepared to do that. I am still ready to question my doctrine on any point and go back to the word prayerfully and look again at its teachings. I say studied, I am still studying. One thing I found out, when I grow weary, I know I can rest in Jesus in his love until I am ready to go again. The more I learn, the less I know. I believe it was one of my first year college professors that said îWhat you will learn here is the ability to learnî. He has been proven right over the years. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 189 Registered: 4-2006  |
River, its so true, its fantastic, I love that I can just fall back into the arms of Jesus, and he gives me rest. Also yes the more I learn the more I know that there are many doctrines which arent that clear, and also that I will never finish studying the word of God. Though I rest in the fact that one day I will be with him and know him fully, oh glorius day!!! Jesus I love you! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4773 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mwh and River, I totally agree with you. Having the rest of Jesus is the most amazing thing in all of life. River, I admire your thoughtfulness and your careful attampts to cause Adventists to think. Not many people who have not been Adventists take the trouble to do that! I believe there are two things that Adventists have to "confront" in order to be willing to truly examine their beliefs. One is the plain gospel of Jesus, the other is the question of Ellen White. Yet in the cases of people who are fully committed to Adventism and belive it to be The Truth, even these two things will not budge them. Only the Holy Spirit can awaken the desire to know. There are Adventists who have encountered the true doctrine of justification by faith and have embraced itóas far as they understand it. In almost every case, these "evangelical" Adventists still hold (even unconsciously) to sanctification by works. They still insist that if they are justified by faith, they will keep the Sabbath as a sign of loyalty, gratitude, etc. A few may even say that NOT keeping the Sabbath won't cause them to lose their salvationóyet they will continue to defend the Sabbath as one of the primary "symbols of grace" in the Bible. What these "eveangelical" Adventists do not face, however, is the fact that underneath everything, they have Ellen. Even if they purport not to read her or need her or honor heróeven if they say she wasn't really a prophetóthey still honor her has used of God when the church needed a "prophetic voice". She stabilized the church, and she gave sensible advice and continuity. Because of their foundational dependence upon Ellenóeven if they do not fully acknowledge her true roleóthey are "owned" by Adventism. They simply cannot let go of the uniquely skewed Adventist mindsetóno matter whether they are liberal, evangelical, or historicóbecuase they are indebted to her unbiblical interpretations. If these types of Adventists can come to the place of trusting God enough to trust the Bible, if subsequently thay can come to the place of honestly facing the issue of Ellen, they will ultimately call her a false prophet. Only then do they become internally freeóonly then is the veil removedóto be able to read the Bible for what it really says. Adventists are difficult to work withóespecially those that consider themselves enlightened, and evangelicalóbecause the reality they cannot see but which controls their theologyóis the (quite literal) spirit of Adventism which is one of Ellen's legacies to the church. The spirit of deception is subtle and powerful, and it sits in a place difficult to see when one is talking to an Adventist. Bottom lineódealing with Adventism is a spiritual battle that disguises itself as theological or philosophical discussion. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, Well in the final analyses I suppose it boils down to the fact that you are right in one aspect at least, the Holy Spirit is far more powerful that anything I can throw at them, so I might just say something like this. My friend, when we pass beyond this thin veil, the church will not be present, Ellen White will not be there, nor your spouse, Pastor and friends will not be able to support you, it will be just you and him as if he made you alone, you alone will stand before him accountable. Your spouse, family and friends will stand before him without your support. We have the Holy Bible, it testifies of itself and it testifies of Christ grace, if we are careful to study it from cover to cover, laying aside all denominational presuppositions, may we each find true peace, joy and rest in its eternal pages. And that just might be the way to witness to Adventist friends. I study the bible that way myself, sometimes I do go to Pastor or friend to clarify something out of Gods word, but I know in the end that I must accept the responsibility of interpretation. I know in my heart of hearts that when I stand before the Lord, it will be as if I was the only one in the world that he created, nor will I argue my case or offer excuse before him. I am reminded of one place in scripture where they ran out of wine and Mary told the servants ìWhatever he tells you to do, do itî so when the wine runs out and the confusion that goes along with that, well then, ìWhat ever tells you to do, do itî | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2006 |
In the above post I ask the question ìIs all the effort worth it?î then I went back and read eight of the ìStorysî on the front of this web site, I again saw the longing and the heartbreak of bondage and the glorious deliverance. I then went to the Bible and reread the parable of the wedding Matt 22: 1-14 and in Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. Notice I underlined the word servant and ìas many as they foundî and also in verse 11 where the man had no wedding garment on. The wedding is being made ready, soon we will come to the marriage supper of the Lamb. ìIs it worth it, yes, absolutelyî. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 843 Registered: 4-2000  |
Mwh, You repeatedly remind me of the many, college-age young people who attend our church each week. Your love for Jesus is truly contagious. Dennis Fischer |
