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Timmy
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Username: Timmy

Post Number: 74
Registered: 8-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas, Have you ever heard of a little town called Prattville?
Timmy
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Post Number: 75
Registered: 8-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walkonwater, O.K. let me clarify...

You said, "Anyhow I thought it interesting when Timmy (see above post) mentioned how accepting non SDA Churches are of different points of view, etc. Especially in light of the fact that I was BANNED FOR LIFE by Christianity.com for my defense of SDA Doctrine."

The point I was trying to make was that my new church will not condemn me to hell, or give me the mark of the beast if I choose to worship elsewhere due to doctrinal differences. I didn't think I implied that non SDA churches accept "all different kinds of points of views."

In other words, I feel I was 'demonized' (as you put it) by the SDA's for my beliefs, but not the non-SDA's.

I guess I should have been more clear :-)

In Brotherly love,
'May the Holy Spirit guide you and give you peace.'
Cforrester
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Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk thanks for your openness. Many good responses have been posted and Iím sure more will come. As a former SDA pastor brought up in the Church I could have many observations. First, yes many Adventists read Tozer, and others including Campolo, John Stott and Chuck Swindol. Yet Adventists always muse, ìToo bad they donít get the Sabbathî. We felt ourselves intellectually and spiritually superior because of our gift of the Spirit of Prophesy and our unique place in this unique time of history. In fact, the arrogance of amateur Adventist apologists is more offensive to me than the occasional rant by a ìformerî over some form of social or spiritual abuse.

Second, ìleavingî the Church for the world or out of rebellion is not the same as leaving for strong Biblical reasons. I left in my 20ís because I was ticked off at the attitude of deans and the hypocrisy ñ and because I had no connection with Christ and instead was lured toward things I thought would make me happier (wrong lol). Many Adventists leave in their wild youth, and if they come back they tend to overreact and try to become ìuberî Adventists. I left in my 30ís because of the theology, and now understand that the sometimes awful behavior that Adventists and any ìChristiansî exhibit is rooted in their lack of understanding of and submission to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Finally, it is true that there is good and bad in everything in this world. The only theological writing I completely agree with is the Bible, though I do plan on having a chat with Paul someday to clarify a point or two in my mind. I was starved, spiritually, as a child in Adventism. As an adult I studied my way back to the Cross and repeatedly I bitterly wondered why I had not been told or shown stuff that I was now discovering. Why did my parents, teachers and bible workers not emphasis strongly -- as Paul does -- that we are no longer under law, but under grace and paint as beautiful a picture of what the Cross of Christ achieved for the whole world as what I see in the New Testament? Are there Adventists today who understand Justification by Faith? Yes. Are there those who understand the role of the law and the old covenant relative to the new? Yes. Are there fully grace-oriented, non-legalist Adventists? Yup. But is that Adventism and is that the message and mission historically and universally for Adventists? Absolutely not, and this is why many of us can no longer call ourselves Adventists. Too many Adventists focus on specific points of truth and argue belligerently against anyone who dares to challenge or disagree with them. And too many will speak of the Cross and of grace, then turn around and talk about how to keep the Sabbath properly and argue why we should not wear jewelry.

If you want to understand ìusî, you must understand what we believe and how what we see in Scripture differs from what Adventism traditionally and commonly teaches. Yes, we often go through a period of anger and you may find posts where some rant a bit. Jesus soothes our soul over time and we actually become pleasant. I would encourage you to read some of the books and more complete essays and studies. I would also encourage honesty, and the spirit of a student. I had to consider the possibility that the Bible was a huge hoax created by the Pope to control the masses. But honest study disproved that theory ñ manuscripts simply predate Popes. There is no danger of deception to the student who is willing to study and be open to the Spirit of God. But to the one who already feels they know they may already be deceived with no possibility of rescue. That, unfortunately, is how I found too many Adventists.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4791
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WalkOnWater, Two observations:

1) As you can see, most of us here left for doctrinal reasons. In fact, most of us didn't WANT to leave. I, for one, loved being Adventist. But I couldn't endorse a church any longer that had a false prophet and totally unbiblical doctrines. For years we tried to stay inside and "make a difference", bringing the gospel into the "wilderness". When we finally admitted the seriousness of the problems with Ellen White and realized she was a false prophet, we could no longer stay. Integrity demanded that we make our behavior match our beliefs.

2) While I hope I am mistaken, I have an uncomfortable sense that you would like to re-convert us to Adventism. I can only observe that if you had really faced the truth about Ellen and about the core doctrines of the church, you would not be able to ask us to consider such a move.

We are taking a Crown Financial Study class this quarter at church. Our memory verse for this week is Leviticus 19:11: "You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to each other." Further, Detueronomy 25:13-16 states that God "detests" anyone who deals dishonestly.

Ellen was dishonest, and God will not excuse me for endorsing a dishonest prophet or false doctrines that I do not believe. God will hold me accountable for my own integrity. He will not excuse me for pretending I support something which I do not believe, and He will not excuse me for pretending these things do not matter.

Clearly, they matter. Jesus and Paul spent a lot of time exposing false doctrines and warning the unsuspecting against them.

Doctrines and theology matter. If these things do not line up with the Bible, I must, as a Christ-follower, leave them behind.

Colleen
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 193
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow -- I am so touched by the "testimonies" and passion behind these posts.

It's so amazing to me the similarities in our stories, and in our reaction to the Adventist denomination.

Like it's been said above many times, most of us didn't leave for personal feelings, or hurts caused by the church. We left because of theological reasons that we could no longer rationalize. And these reasons didn't become clear or obvious until we set aside our preconcieved ideas of how the Bible should be read, and started to read it for what it really said.

For me personally, "hurt" or "rebellion" was not even close to playing a part in my decision to leave. I actually loved being an Adventist. I loved my identity as a member of the one true church. I loved my schooling and education and friends within this tight community. Heck, I even loved Fri-Chik, Super Links, and Stripples!! I loved the culture of Adventism and all the "specialness" that came with membership.

When I started to discover the Bible in a whole new way, I was so confused and would ask, "Why would God call me out of the true Chruch?" As a person who has lived with a mapped out life, the last place I would have pictured me in my 30s is outside the denomination!

Another surprising, yet hugely rewarding, part of this journey is actually loving Jesus. I knew who Jesus was as an Adventist, and knew I wanted to love Him. But yet, I just couldn't. My picture of Jesus, His grace, His FULL atonement, was so skewed in my head that it kept me from truly loving Him deep down to the deepest part of my heart. My conversion (and I do see it as a true conversion, not just changing churches) has changed my life even more than becoming a non-Adventist has. I am so grateful for Jesus, and His patience in my life.

As I think back on this past year (it's still a relatively new thing for me), I am so humbled by what I discovered and how God led me out. I didn't just discover a new religion, or new church. I discovered Jesus! It makes me weepy just thinking about it.

Grace
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 842
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas,

What a powerful testimony of faith in Jesus you have shared with us! There are tears in my eyes too as I sense the serious implications of this discussion. It is my heartfelt, perpetual prayer that our SDA friends and relatives will come to fully appreciate and embrace biblical Christianity. Indeed, we are not earthly people having a heavenly experience. We are heavenly people having an earthly experience, a short one at that.

Dennis Fischer
Thomas1
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Username: Thomas1

Post Number: 202
Registered: 4-2002


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timmy,

Are you referring to the northern suberb of Waldron?
Timmy
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Username: Timmy

Post Number: 76
Registered: 8-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

:-) that's it! I think the last time I saw you was about 25 years ago! Maybe we should touch base via email. I love reading your testimonies, I copied the one you wrote for Proclaimation, now I am just trying to get the nerve to give it to my mom. I would give anything to see her find security in salvation and discard her legalistic mentality.

Tim
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 22
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a friend who is, I suppose, what you might call a hardline Adventist, over the last three years he has had such a sweet and humble spirit, about three months ago, he started reading Whites stuff again and his voice has now became hard, sort of unbending, and not humble anymore, I have been concerned about this, this happened at the same time he began to reiterate whites works I was wondering if anyone can explain what is happening here.
He has turned from a seeking, prayerful and humble man into something I do not recognize almost overnight.

This may not be the place to ask but seemed as good a place as any.
Like our friend here I am concerned but probably not for the same reason. My concern is that they will appear before a mighty God with the poor rags of their own righteousness on instead of the robe furnished by the Lord Jesus Christ.
What a sad day if we appear without a wedding garment on. See Matt 22: 11-13.
Thomas1
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Post Number: 203
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Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tim
I don't know, right off, who you are. Give me a bump

OcalaGator@ocala.com
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4795
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River, I can tell you what is happening with your friend. Remember how 2 Corinthians 3 explains that whenever Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts, but when they turn to Jesus, the veil is removed?

Well, your friend has turned from a more Biblical understanding of Jesus back to the deceptionóback to Ellen White who did write doctrines of demons. Embracing Ellen means embracing untruthóa perversion of the gospel and a twisted understanding of Jesus and the atonement.

There are only two places in the universe: in Christ or not in Christ. When people turn to teachings that come not from God but from the other side, they will become hardened to truth.

This does not mean your friend has no chance of returning to the Shepherd and Overseer of his soul (1 Peter 2:24-25). But it does mean he is embracing deceptionówhich is never inoccuous or morally neutralóand is in need of prayer and a re-conviction of the true gospel of Jesus.

Colleen
Olga
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Username: Olga

Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deciding to follow where Jesus would lead me was the deciding factor in leaving the SDA church. I always wanted (and still do) to please my parents? I left the church in '84 (this happened while I attended my 1st year at AUC); I knew I caused my parents so much heartache; later in '95 I got re-baptized and my parents felt this was God's answer to their prayers. How could I dare cause them so much pain by leaving the church, again? I didn't set out to do this; I wasn't even questioning doctrines. I had joined a Bible study group with women and friends from my neighborhood (different denominations) --I was so happy as here was a group I could talk to about "the truth." I couldn't believe here was a group of women from other denominations who would talk about Jesus and would show love in their talk and their actions; how could those who didn't keep the Sabbath and the 10 C's be so in love with our God and Jesus our Saviour?

I am so thankful to my own parents for instilling in me the desire to read everything and retain the good stuff. One day while trying to find out about good SDA and Ellen G White information and books to share with others, I went online, and found plenty. After so much research, I decided I could not longer be an SDA. I told my mom (who now won't mention it) but she's asked me not to tell my dad or brothers. Not sure how to proceed but I ask God to lead me and to take the veil off from their eyes (I think my mom is carrying such a huge burden with all this EGW stuff and that's making her feel 'trapped). Anyways, I don't know if this post makes any sense as I'm really kind of tired, emotional with PMS and worried about surgery Monday, either way, please pray to the God who can make sense of those things we don't even utter.

Olga
Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 61
Registered: 1-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are discussing an area where I think many are at great risk spiritually. The issues are our spiritual integrity and honesty, with the Holy Spirit, with our fellow believers, and with ourselves.

John Calvin wrote that misrepresenting doctrine, even in the smallest degree, is exceedingly injurious. I think this is one of the biggest dangers for those who remain in the church to try to work from the inside. There will always be pressure to compromise theologically and to just get along.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but messing around with doctrine or with our testimony is a very serious thing, and posing as something that we are not (posing as members of the SDA church, for example, when we can no longer be sincere about our beliefs as Adventists) puts us perilously close to lying to the Holy Spirit, to say nothing of lying to our fellow man. How will we answer for our false testimony?

Paul counseled Timothy (2 Tim 1:13) Hold fast to the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone. Anything else is "another gospel" which Paul so strongly condenms in Galatians. It's important to be both biblically correct and also honest in our testimony, so we don't mislead others.

Bob
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 24
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Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
Thank you for that insight, I will begin to pray for him, I think at this point, that is about all I can do for him. I am beginning to see the spiritual forces at work in this thing.
Not meaning to step over your thread Olga.
Borgch
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Username: Borgch

Post Number: 8
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Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, that was an excellent response to River's post.

This very issue of seeing people descend into spiritual darkness after picking up EGW writings was one of the clinching issues for me on the whole question of whether or not to stay within Adventism.

About a year or so ago a man was baptized into the SDA denomination at our church. At the time he was so vibrant and joyful, and, I believe, full of the Holy Spirit.

He attended Wednesday night Bible studies at our SDA church. A few months after his baptism he started reading EGW. I began to notice that week after week he not only became more "fundamentalist", but that his countenance was changing--and not in a good way.

It was clear as day that EGW was bogging him down spiritually and I just wanted to shout to him to put down that trash! But, of course, I couldn't say anything because I was still an Adventist, and therefore felt obligated--out of the desire to not be hypocritical--to give a silent nod of assent to what he was getting into.

And the need to give that silent nod of assent was the strongest non-doctrinal reason that I had to exit Adventism pronto! It became crystal clear that I could never, in good conscience, lead another person to Christ under the Adventist banner. A bonus effect of this little revelation was that I no longer have to!

You see, I think that, deep down, I've always disliked have to "explain" so many of the unique (i.e., unchristian) SDA doctrines to people who were even so much as curious as to what I believed. Now, unfettered by the chains of Adventism, I love talking about Jesus and theology to anyone and everyone! It's great!

I think I speak for most every former SDA in this forum when I shout, "Thank you Jesus for setting me free!"

Chad Borges
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 2911
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Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chad,
As an SDA I could never talk about the "gospel" without talking about the sabbath. I had forgotten about the IJ and never mentioned the "right hand of the gospel-health".
Now, I will tell anyone who wants to listen. It is great!!!
And I also shout out "Thank you Jesus for liberating me!! Thank You, You are awesome!!!
Diana
Borgch
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Post Number: 9
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Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Olga and Bobj,

Thanks for leading into and bringing up the concept of intellectual honesty. I don't think I can overemphasize its importance in every aspect of life. I have found, however, that it is particularly important--no, ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL--with regard to spiritual matters.

How do I know? I used to be (and probably still am to some degree in some areas) intellectually dishonest. It's what allowed me to read through the entire New Testament and remain Adventist (though, admittedly, a bit softened) for a few more years. You see, every time I would come across a verse that is "uncomfortable" to Adventists such as Romans 14:5 (One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind) or Colossians 2:16-17 (Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ), I would allow myself to explain it away with some flimsy, contrived argument.

(By the way, just for the sake of clarity, here's my personal working definition of intellectual honesty: Whether you like it or not and no matter the cost, accepting the conclusions that are best supported by the evidence (when any conclusions whatsoever can be made)óand, as a corollary, not twisting evidence into saying something that it does not say.)

I learned the concept and (yet imperfect) practice of intellectual honesty as a graduate student in the sciences. But, interestingly, once the Spirit led me to begin applying it to my spiritual life, my Adventism began to crumble. I'm guessing that many others in this forum have had the same experience with regard to the Spirit using intellectual honesty to take them straight out of Adventism...?

I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll cut it off there for now...

The Good Lord never lets go of those who are His--despite our many, many flaws!

Chad Borges



Borgch
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Post Number: 10
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Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

:-) Big grins in your direction, Diana! :-)
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 2166
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Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobj wrote this:

"John Calvin wrote that misrepresenting doctrine, even in the smallest degree, is exceedingly injurious. I think this is one of the biggest dangers for those who remain in the church to try to work from the inside. There will always be pressure to compromise theologically and to just get along."
--------------------------------------------------
What a great quote Bob. I agree wholeheartedly, and that doesn't mean I agree with everything John Calvin taught, but overall the principles he espoused were right on.

Stan
Walkonwater
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Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 8
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Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 1:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, here it is 30 minutes until midnight (I'm talking reality here, not prophecy. grin!) and I am just sitting down to respond to all the messages you have posted.

Let me try to summarize what I have been hearing you say.

1. Many say it was not being treated badly that caused them to leave Adventism but instead intellectual honesty.

2. Many said that when they began comparing the teachings of the SDA Church with Scripture they could not reconcile the two and chose the Bible over the doctrines of Adventism.

3. A number cited Ellen White as being a false prophet and deceiver who brought bondage instead of freedom as a reason for leaving Adventism.

4. Some cited narrow mindedness and a spirit of oppression that they found in the SDA Church.

5. Some said they could not in good conscience remain SDA. In essence, to do so would make them a hypocrite.

5. Some mentioned hurts and slights and judgmentalness which resulted in them leaving the church.

6. And last but not least, many say they have found a new joy and freedom in following Jesus which they never found in the SDA Church.

I know my list is not fully complete but would you say it catches the spirit of what has been posted here?

Hopefully I have heard you correctly. If I have not, then any response I give will not be of much value.

My response:

1. I hear you loud and clear. I too have struggled and wept over most all of the issues with which you have struggled. Actually I started on the road to becoming a pastor at PUC but the writings of Ellen White brought so much despair into my heart that I finally dropped my dreams.

I knew I could never measure up to the standard she set for being a pastor. In fact I could not even measure up to her standard for what a garden variety Christian should be.

2. I too have struggled with the lack of emphasis on Jesus in the SDA Church. In fact, recently I sent a protest letter to the producers of Mission Spotlight. I strongly objected to the fact that the entire emphasis is on Adventism and almost entirely writes Jesus out of the script.

Every time Mission Spotlight plays in SS School I keep track of how often SDA, Adventist, etc. is mentioned and how often Jesus, Lord, Holy Spirit or God is mentioned. It's always 15 to 25 mentions of something Adventist vs. 0 to 3 references to God. That is inexcusable! That is dead wrong! Sadly, the producers were offended that I would bring this fact to their attention. Perhaps that was because I referred to their program not as ìMission Spotlightî but ìMissing Spotlightî. (grin)

3. I have struggled with the Investigative Judgment. This doctrine kept me in fear and insecurity much of my younger years. I was terrified Jesus had come to my name in the books and I had been found wanting.

One day, at 6 years of age, I saw a small white cloud in the sky and was convinced it was Jesus coming. I ran home faster than I'd ever run. I dived under my bed as a shook with fright knowing that at any minute I would hear the trumpet blasts of Christ's return. I knew at 6 years of age that I was too sinful for Jesus to love, too sinful for Jesus to save.

Where did I get that fear? From Adventist preachers who knew how to scare people but who did not know how to save people.

4. I could go on and on but I hope you are starting to see that I do not look at the SDA Church or Ellen White through rose colored glasses. I think I am not afraid to look carefully at what I believe and question every iota.

I am trying not to be afraid to listen to what you have to say, although I am shocked by some of it. The text in the Bible that warns, there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death, forces me to look closely at myself and what I believe.

So I think I hear what you are saying! I think I hear some of your pain! I too have suffered some of the things you have suffered. Yet we have ended up in very different places. You have moved out of the church and I have moved back into it. My big question is, why? Am I some sort of masochist?

I will leave this post with that question. It is 1:30 in the morning and to continue any further would confirm the answer to that question as being, ìyesî!

WalkOnWater

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