| Author | Message | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 752 Registered: 7-2004 |
Olga, Your mother has put you in a difficult spot in asking you to not discuss your decision to leave Adventism with anyone. I will be lifting you up in prayer as you wait on God for direction on how to proceed. I will also be praying for your surgery on Monday. Hold strong to God's promise that "all things work together for the good of those who love Him and are called accoring to His purpose." We already know without a doubt you have been called and we also know of your strong love for God...leave the rest to Him that knows all things! Blessings, Denise | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 559 Registered: 7-2004  |
WalkOnWater, I was wondering if our candid posts would chase you away. Yes, you did summarize things fairly well. While you seem to relate to a lot of our perspectives, I suspect you wouldn't call EGW a false prophet. So why do you remain in the SDA church? (I realize you're trying to figure that out!) Doesn't the fruit of the SDA church (mass confusion over salvation, dead churches, no emphasis on Jesus) give a clue that something is terribly wrong at its very core? Do you still believe in its message and mission? If the SDA church were to undergo a massive change to what it "should" be, what would that look like to you? | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 77 Registered: 8-2006  |
Chad said, "A few months after his baptism he started reading EGW. I began to notice that week after week he not only became more "fundamentalist", but that his countenance was changing--and not in a good way. " River said, "He has turned from a seeking, prayerful and humble man into something I do not recognize almost overnight." Olga said, "I think my mom is carrying such a huge burden with all this EGW stuff and that's making her feel 'trapped." (which by-the-way makes perfect sense Olga) Colleen said, "Embracing Ellen means embracing untruthóa perversion of the gospel and a twisted understanding of Jesus and the atonement." These statements as well as others have my jaw on my desk. This is something that I witnessed about four times over in our old church. The first time I saw it happen I just wrote the person off as "looney." The second and third time I saw it happen it bothered me but the fourth time it really gave me chills. I never even dreamed to question SDA doctrine at that time but this 'trend' forced me to question the spirit of the denomination. The last time it happened, a sweet vibrant young mother started reading the testimonies. Soon she totally changed her diet (to the dismay of her husband) then she seemed to isolate herself from other SDA's, then she got very judgmental, almost angry with people that weren't doing all these things she was doing. She actually called my wife, (this was about two years before we left adventism) and spent 45 minutes on the phone telling her how she (my wife) had many flaws in her charactor, she needed to change if she wanted to be saved, she couldn't possibly love God by living the way she was.. etc. When they hung up my wife cryed and cryed, this was a good friend of hers. I remember how stunned I felt because I realized that this was a trend, it happens this way almost in a predictable order. For the first time I asked myself, "What if it is us who will be deceived and not realize it until it is too late???" All the while we are going around saying everyone else is deceived. It is very interesting/amusing even scary to see that this trend doesn't just happen in my little corner of the world. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2006 |
Walkonwater: it never hurts to look deep inside at our own motives, it can seem devastating at what we sometimes find, how ever, it can be even more devastating if we fail to be honest with ourselves. In allowing the Holy Spirit to illuminate our inner being, bring it too light and bring healing. I have found things hiding behind the fig leaves and I asked the question ìWhy are you there? And the answer usually comes ìI was afraid and I hid myselfî. This is not meant in a negative sense toward you personally, but to me personally or anyone else who might be able to use it. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 62 Registered: 1-2006  |
Stan, I made an error! In my exhaustion from returning from Ireland a couple days ago (I live in California) and was seriously jet lagged and in a hurry to get to bed. John Calvin only wrote the first sentence. I accidently placed my comments inside the quotation marks. So much for honesty! Bob | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 560 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, Timmy, I too have seen those very same things in people who are "into EGW." That was one of my first clues that something wasn't right, clear back when I was a kid. Anyone who actually reads the Testimonies, Child Guidance and Messages to Young People can see that very same "spirit" in there. It's really scary and really wrong. If I hadn't been so brainwashed that the SDA was special, and God's only true church on earth, I would have left much, much earlier. That was the dissonance, trying to make everything fit with the Bible because I thought it was the true church and so it had to fit--I thought I was just too incompetent to figure out how to make it all fit. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 230 Registered: 11-2004 |
Walkonwater, Perhaps you still adhere to many SDA beliefs like the Sabbath and the state of the dead which may explain why you are still in the SDA church. I would never have been able to stay in the SDA church. My beliefs are nothing like SDAs now and I would not be welcome there. Besides I don't want to be in a place where others believe I am of the devil. And I don't want my kids in an environment that teaches that people who believe like us are of the devil. Sadly I had a time in my life where I was the way that many are describing where EGW turned them into a raging legalist. I had a SDA teacher that turned things around for me and helped me screw my head on the right way. I disgarded EGW and learned of God's goodness and grace. Walkonwater, are you able to be in a position of leadership if your beliefs are not totally SDA? Are you able to be in a position to teach others to help them get their head screwed on the right way? I was teaching a Junior Sabbath School class up until I left the SDA church. I was asked to be in that teaching position because of my surname. The pastor didn't know what I believed. I didn't base my teaching on the quarterly, but just got some ideas from it. Looking back I know I was teaching some things that didn't jive with SDAs. I was just teaching what I knew to be true from the Bible. Maybe the pastor became suspicious because he decided to sit in on my Junior Sabbath School class. I moved a few weeks later and left the SDA church at the same time. I just don't see how someone can really change things from within if they are not in a teacher/leadership position and how can they obtain/keep that position if their beliefs are not totally SDA? | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2004 |
Walk, I feel that people remain in Adventism generally for non-theological reason. Family, tradition, the social aspects (which are often very good) or just because that's their comfort zone or all they know. You may be a masochist, but only because youíre up late doing thought work <grin>. I also have people tell me they stay because they want to change it. In the Reformation there were theologians who remained within the Catholic organization in an attempt to reform from the inside, whereas Martin Luther could not in good conscience remain a "good Catholic". It takes a very well trained and strong swimmer to save a drowning person in deep water; most of us are safer to ourselves and the drowning person to help from outside the water. If we try to swim out we may well also be pulled under. I have seen too many people who have been beat up and become bitter from trying to change Adventism. I know there are Adventist theologians who recognize the serious flaws in the history and teaching, and who work wisely and quietly to teach truth. They are led by God, and do not get caught up in the controversies but stay focused on teaching a single area. I believe they are teaching people and not trying to change the system, which probably will never change. Interestingly enough, though: this is the same for any environment we find ourselves in. Many of my Christian friends love the ìLeft Behindî books; I personally feel that they are unscriptural. Some of my friends come from the Calvinist tradition and believe in double predestination. But none of these people display the arrogance and stubbornness that Adventists present about their beliefs and this is why it takes a very wise, patient and Spirit filled person to work from within that environment. Obviously, since Iím not there that indicates where I ranked  I will say this: in a lot of ways you sound like me while I was still ìinî. I asked the same type of question to people who believed that EGW was a plagiarist. I was convinced it was not an issue back then, that it was minor, and that people were overreacting to a non-issue. Iíd ask people to understand, and then repeated the same mantra that I was taught in school. But: when I went to do research in order to prove my points and them wrong I found just the opposite. I found that since the late 1700ís plagiarism was a legal issue, that the church was going to be sued over the Paul book and that even according to our own PUC study there was massive examples of ìborrowingî. I would encourage you to methodically summarize on paper all the types of problems that youíve seen and to categorize and rank them. Also try to identify the types of issues that other people say are wrong with Adventism. Put them on paper, organize them and then disprove each of them from Scripture. But be honest and precise with what you see. When you see in the 27 book, p.316 that ìThe penitent sinner came to the sanctuary with a sacrifice, he laid his hands on the head of the innocent animal and confessed his sins.î, try then to substantiate this from Leviticus or anywhere else. Then ask, why in so many SDA books and evangelistic materials does it say ìhandsî rather than ìhandî as found in scripture, and why do we say he confessed his sins when Scripture never says that. Ask why Haskell in The Cross and Its Shadow (1914) uses Lev. 4:29 and Num. 5:7 as proof texts for this point, and these two are totally different topics. Trivial? Maybe. But it is the trivial error that is required to substantiate the broad theological errors. Conspiracy? Naw. Error transmitted and supported by laziness and unwillingness to question. Yet ìhandsî is symbolic for transference, and confessing supports the idea that the sinner transferred his sins to the sanctuary where they were held until the Day of Atonement, which the antitypical began in 1844. We missed the real point of the ritual while trying to establish another. Spend 5 years studying. Spend 10. But be honest and question everything. If it is true it will stand up to any and all questioning. But if it is false the errors will accumulate into an avalanche that will finally provide to you overwhelming evidence that ìHouston, we have a problemî. Oh, and as you find theological errors, present them to your leaders and to theologians and watch the response. If this is Godís church lead by the Spirit you should find a humble and inviting spirit to study and question even the finest detail, because truth matters. Remember, there are three pillars: Credibility, Theology, and Fruits. If I had found that two of those pillars were present and strong in Adventism, I would have stayed. All three had foundational cracks in my opinion. People here will study with you and will (as youíve seen) answer your questions. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 593 Registered: 7-2004  |
Walk, when you described
that could have been writing my experience to a "T". (Except you need to substitute AU for PUC). I knew at least some of SDAism was wrong, but I was so distraught at believing that I had been led by God into such hopelessness. And so confused about what might be true and what was clearly false, that I simply gave up on God. I couldn't measure up. And I was sick and tired of trying. That lasted for about 10 years. Praise God that He had different plans for my life and came to rescue me from that pit. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2006 |
Several people addressed direct questions to me over the last couple days and I would like to try to respond to some of them. Later I want to go back to my last post (#8) and answer the question, "Am I a masochist?" One question went something like this. If you were a Mormon and became convinced Joseph Smith was a false prophet, would you stay in the Mormon Church? I don't believe leaving or going is strictly my choice. I hear people say things like, "I am moving to Phoenix because I love hot weather and because of the great opportunities for job advancement." For a Christian, I believe that's bogus thinking. A Christian must always say, "Lord, where do YOU want me?" If He happens to send you to Phoenix, that is great. If He sends you to Siberia, thatís great too. Did Paul decide to go someplace based on the recreational or job opportunities? No!! Being in the center of Godís will is the only safe place for a Christian. In other words, to change locations (or churches) is not my choice. It is God's choice. So I would not leave the Mormon Church until or unless God made that move clear to me. While I waited on Him, I would do all I could to help others find a true relationship with Jesus. That is why I rejoined the Adventist Church. God made it VERY CLEAR to me that is where He wanted me. My human nature did not want to go. After many painful mistakes along these lines, I am beginning to learn that to change locations or do something based on my desires or feelings is a very dangerous move. WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2006 |
To Cforrester: Thank you for a very thoughtful post. I appreciate the spirit in which it was given. WalkOnWater | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2005 |
Walkonwater, you said: "So I think I hear what you are saying! I think I hear some of your pain! I too have suffered some of the things you have suffered. Yet we have ended up in very different places. You have moved out of the church and I have moved back into it. My big question is, why? Am I some sort of masochist?" First, yes, you summarized things well, impressively well, actually. As to your question? Why? I guess my question is not why are you back in the SDA church, but what were you scared of outside of the church? Walk, I think I know your struggle. Even when I was sure I couldn't be a part of the SDA church anymore, I still hoped to find some good in it. So often, I would continue to read Adventist materials, and listen to my old Adventist mentors hoping I had missed something. I would fool myself into thinking that I was doing it to keep an open mind, and wanted to keep the possibility open that God may be bringing me "full circle" into His growth. I would rationalize that maybe I needed to be out of the church to understand His grace and come to know Him, but ultimately, I needed to be back in the Adventist church to develop this once I had it. The truth was, I was scared, and I was missing that part of my old identity. I will never forget what a good friend told me during one of these "panic" moments. She said it reminded her of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and that I needed to stop looking back. God is faithful to complete us, and I need to trust that -- even if it means being outside of the where I thought I should have been. Honestly, God has spared me so much. If it wasn't for my new friends that keep me accountable to my integrity, I wonder whether I would have returned too. But also, had I returned, I think I would have always had an unsettled feeling. I know what you're feeling, and the questions you're asking. It would be the same way I'd be feeling if I'd returned too. I'll be honest, Walkonwater. I don't feel as if God is done with your journey. You're here for a reason. You're here trying to understand us, and in the meanwhile trying to understand "you". You have that same questioning desperation that I know I have when I'm confused. I'm praying for you. Grace PS Your comment, "I am trying not to be afraid to listen to what you have to say, although I am shocked by some of it. The text in the Bible that warns, there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death, forces me to look closely at myself and what I believe". God will honor your open heart, Walk! | ||
| Borgch Registered user Username: Borgch Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2006 |
Hi Walk, I hope you're not confusing geographical location with spiritual location. I recently heard an excellent sermon series by James MacDonald (www.walkintheword.com) talking about how God's will for most people's lives is far less about where (geographically) he wants them to be and far more about the kind of people he wants us to be. But I suspect that, with religion, geographical location--i.e., what church body you affiliate yourself with (not where that church body is located)--can actually affect spiritual location. Cforrester's analogy about swimming was excellent. I appreciate your statement: "After many painful mistakes along these lines, I am beginning to learn that to change locations or do something based on my desires or feelings is a very dangerous move." I strongly agree. I also believe that you are genuinely listening to the Lord's voice as He attempts to lead you. God bless you, Walk. Chad | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 238 Registered: 6-2006  |
Welcome Walkonwater! I'm wondering what brought you into the forum? When you saw the words "Former Adventist Forum" what did you think? Did you lurk here for a while, or did you feel compelled to just jump in? I also am curious to know, do you believe that this group is "babylon" and will receive the mark of the beast as EGW has pointed out? I think that I'm just as curious about you as you are about all of us. <smile> Thanks for your honesty - please stick around! Leigh Anne | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2006 |
To U2BSDA, You wrote, "are you able to be in a position of leadership if your beliefs are not totally SDA? Are you able to be in a position to teach others to help them get their head screwed on the right way? My response: The short answer is, yes. The Lord has opened doors in an amazing way. I have been able to preach at my church a number of times. In fact I have been asked to preach at several other Adventist Churches in California and Oregon. My subject matter is almost always the walk of faith. What is it and why is it important and how it can change ones life totally? In addition, for the last 5 1/2 years I have led a prayer fellowship at our church. God has worked in amazing ways through this fellowship but the most amazing is seeing people who were laden with legalism, or discouragement, or fear break free in Jesus. I have been allowed to do many vespers programs in which I have presented the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. I did one series which I called "The Five Habits of Highly Effective Christians". It was focused on how to become a real Christian and how to live a life of victory and hope and courage in Jesus. In fact, just now I received a call from an 85 year old lady who is a member of our fellowship. She is nearly blind but what a tower of hope and courage and joy she is. I told her I was responding to posts on the Former Adventist Forum and she said, "You tell those young people that the Adventist Church has been dead wrong in many areas. That for many the Adventist Church has been a ministration of death instead of a ministration of life." She continued, "I can't blame them for leaving. We have misrepresented Ellen White and leadership knew they were misrepresenting Ellen White yet did little or nothing stop it. I fear we have only ourselves to blame for people leaving the church." Now bear in mind, she is a loyal SDA. What she says is said in utmost love. There are tears in her voice. She loves Ellen White and loves the SDA Church but she is willing to speak against evil when and where she sees it. As for our Prayer Fellowship, does everyone in the church attend? No. Out of a church with a membership of 300 we get 10 to 14 people each Tuesday night. Does the leadership support our Prayer Fellowship? They suuport it by their words but in general they never suppoet it by attending. Is our church a beehive of Christian love? No, but we see some progress being made. And seeing a few learning the walk of faith is worth it all. Of course we don't know how God is working on the hearts of those who appear not to be responding. We are praying for them that they too will see the light. WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2006 |
WOW!!! So many questions, so little time. Thank you Grace_alone, Borgch and Snowboardingmom for your comments and questions. I will do my best to get back to your questions this evening but.. I gotta run; to get stuff done. WalkOnWater | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 561 Registered: 7-2004 |
IMO, "misrepresenting Ellen White" is not the problem. No matter how you dice it, no matter how accurately EGW is represented, she, as a false prophet with false teachings, is the crux of the problem. Her influence has permeated every teaching of the SDA church in one way or another. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4801 Registered: 12-2003  |
Raven, you are exactly right. The Adventist church is activley changing its teaching of and response to the criticisms of Ellen White. They are actively and publicly stating that the church has been wrong in the way they taught her and used her (see the videos of the Ellen White Summit in Oregon, November, 2005, here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8655009682505291165) No, the problem is NOT that the church misrepresented Ellen. The problem is that the church has not RENOUNCED Ellen and repented for promulgating false doctrine. The church has had opportunites time after time over the years, and they have not done it. WalkOnWater, with all respect I must say, a person CANNOT present the whole, true Biblical gospel of Jesus inside the Adventist church. One cannot build a successful, solid building on top of a broken foundation. Without destroying the foundation and laying a completely new one, the building above is condemned and unsafe for habitation. One cannot serve both the spirit of deception and the Spirit of God. As Ellen herself said, the most effective deception is mixing a bit of error into truth. Her own statement describes Adventism. This issue of Adventism or Not Adventism is not philosophical or even theological. It is spiritual. The spirit of deception behind Adventism has never been acknowledged or renounced. Unless it is, the church has no hope of actually teaching the true gospel or presenting the Biblical view of God. Jesus finds people in spite of Adventism, and He pulls them to Himself. But if teaching the TRUE gospel is one's goal, if knowing Jesus and honoring Him is your heart's desire, you will ultimately face head-on the deception of ADventism and find that the two cannot co-exist. By the by, you have said you were a former Adventist but God led you back. What exactly was the reason you left the church? Was it for reasons of conscience and love of Jesus, or was it because of finding Adventism dead and stifling? And how long ago did you leave, how long were you gone, and how long have you been back in the church? Intellectual and spiritual honesty are truly the bottom line. As Proverbs 12:22 says, God detests lying lips. A sentence in our Crown Ministries book for this week's lesson is so powerful: "Honesty helps confirm God's direction." One cannot be functioning in complete honesty as long as one defends Ellenóa false prophet whose "lying lips" have led thousands into despairóand rationalizes the Scriptural understanding formed by her interpretations andófranklyóborrowed books. God is in the business of exposing the evil deeds of darkness (Ephesians 5:11-14) and transfering us to the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13). Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 594 Registered: 7-2004 |
Walk, I hope that I have simply misunderstood you. I am concerned about your idea of the simple Gospel of Jesus. You mention a "series which I called "The Five Habits of Highly Effective Christians". It was focused on how to become a real Christian and how to live a life of victory and hope and courage in Jesus." This sounds remarkably like the false SDA gospel that you take steps to Christ in order to achieve victory over sin and therefore become worthy of salvation. This so-called "righteousness by faith" is one mired in our works not in God's gift. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2006 |
Hello, I've been a long time (years) lurker but have never posted. I'm so curious, though, that I've decided to take the plunge. I'm curious to know from Walk exactly how God made it PLAIN that you were supposed to remain in the SDA church. How did that come about? Susan |
