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Archive through October 20, 2006Walkonwater20 10-20-06  9:44 pm
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U2bsda
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Username: U2bsda

Post Number: 277
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW said "My heart goes out to people who have experienced that. And I can understand why someone would want to flee. Even a slug moves away from pain."

Maybe some here have left for that reason, but definitely not all. I was happy and comfortable as an Adventist. I questioned many things, but I was basically happy as a liberal Adventist living in my comfort zone. I left the Adventist church because I no longer agreed with the mission of the church and because I no longer believed the Sabbath was "binding".

Unsalvageable? Every person, I believe, is salvageable. A person is not the same as a belief system. Is Adventism salvageable? Maybe, but drastic changes are needed.

Praise God for the great prayer fellowship you had! I had many wonderful times like that as an Adventist too.

Tisha
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Username: Tisha

Post Number: 206
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WALK - There are "salvageable" people and even churches everywhere. With God nothing is impossible. BUT - I have not seen the SDA church repent of its sin and deception and turn to true Grace. While this might be possible, it has shown a long history of denying its sin and deception, purposefully and thoughtfully carrying on with it even now.

The SDA's statement of beliefs, at its core, requires one to do "works" for Salvation. The Sabbath, at the very least, as well as many other added requirements of EGW as prophet, food, dress, etc are required as stated in the "28 Fundementals". I don't care what anyone says, one CANNOT call themselves SDA without assenting, even in silence, to these beliefs. And if one truely does not uphold the whole belief system, than one is a hypocrit to call themself SDA.

Before I left, I had never believed EGW was a prophet, never bought into the IJ, etc. and thought that because of that I had escaped their brainwashing. But when I got the courage to step out and look to the Bible alone, I finally understood how subtle the SDA theology was that colored my reality.

I didn't leave because I felt unable to live up to everything required. I really thought I understood Grace. I even would say that a loving God would look at my intentions and my journey and progress, would not condemn me if I sinned just before I died and couldn't confess that sin. I thought His Grace would see the general goodness of my life, know that I was TRYING to be good and that would be good enough. The problem with that is that it still depended on ME to at least try to be good. I didn't realize I was ALREADY saved because I had accepted Jesus as my Savior. It wasn't dependant on my averages, or progression, it was based on this - I was saved while still a sinner and an still saved while I am and always will be a sinner. God's work of Salvation for me was COMPLETED on the cross.

I have not met anyone who holds onto the SDA perspective that really understands the concept of Grace in the present tense. And I don't believe you really do either. In a previoius post you said "I do not brag about being saved. I prefer to brag about the One who is saving me." When you use the word "saving" it shows that you see it as a work in progress, not an accomplished fact.

I hear what you are saying about how Jesus loves you, rescues you, forgives you. You feel close to Him as you pray, you feel His presence. All of that is important. And I'm not saying one cannot be saved, even with a misunderstanding of Grace. But to deny that there could be a more accurate understanding of Grace, and to lose out on the Peace and Joy of KNOWING you are saved RIGHT NOW, is so sad.

To witness to others within the SDA Church is a great opportunity. But until you can understand the FUNDAMENTAL difference in theology, I don't believe you can really share truth. I know you have good intentions and I commend you for that. I know you have come a long way in trying to separate the good and bad in the SDA denomination. I know you are searching for truth. I would like to see you go all the way and take that final step of Faith - humble yourself before the Lord and accept that Gift of Salvation TODAY. It will make all the difference in the world about how you look at everything else!

In Christian Love,
tisha
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4849
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

U2óyou made an excellent distinction above: can you actually say I am saved (past tense--fully accomplished) or I am BEING saved?

WalkóTo say nothing is salvageable of Adventism is a statement about a belief systemóan "ism", as we often call systems of belief here. To include the Adventist people in that statement, as you did, is gratuitous and not what the author intended. (I believe, though, that you already know that!) If the Adventist people themselves were not salvageable, there would be no Proclamation!, no FAF forum, etc.

God does not save churches. He saves individualsóone life at a timeóand unites them in Him by His Spirit. Denominations are human constructs, and they are not eternal or save-able.

When we feel compelled to defend our church, whatever it is and for whatever reason, at the expense of allowing Jesus ALONE to be our identity, we actually have an idol. The Bride of Christ has NOTHING whatsoever to do with churches or denominations. Jesus did not come to save churches.

Adventism was not founded on the gospel of God, as Paul called it. It was founded by Arian leaders who did not believe in the Trinity, who created a doctrine of incomplete atonement to save face after an embarassing miscalculation. It created a doctrine of man that denies the existence of a sentient spirit that knows God and that must be brought to life by the Holy Spirit when one believes in Jesus' sacrifice and finished work. This doctrine of man further blurs the identity of Jesus as sinless NOT because he kept the law but because He was born spiritually alive.

Further, this doctrine of man and the non-existence of a sentient spirit has created a fasle doctrine of sin (harmartology), making it primarily phsyical, residing in our personalities and minds and genes, rather than in an intrinsically dead spirit that dooms us to death before we are born. This doctrine then supports the idea that our works are part of our becoming savedóeither, as Ellen originally taught, that we must become perfect law-keepers in order to be counted "saved", or, as is now being taught, that works are what determine whether we stay saved.

Over all this, Adventism is defined by a false modern-day prophet whose writings are dubious on many levels: she copied others without giving credit, claiming the ideas by saying "I was shown"; she contradicts herself, often completely reversing her ideas; she has no consistent teaching of the nature of Christ or of the way a person is saved; she destroyed reputations when people disagreed with her "visions" and counsels; she gave Satan a great deal of power and significance, creating a false framework for explaining how God works in the universe in his fight against evilóthis framework is called "the great controversy".

Etc.

No matter how Adventists modify their public statements of belief, the church has not renounced its false prophet nor renounced its central false doctrine. It is no more salvageable than is Mormonism. Both are false gospels.

The members need to hear the true gospel. They need to be called to integrity and accountability. No matter how you avoid the central questions Tim and others are asking, Walk, the fact remains that you embrace a false prophet who taught "another gospel". No matter how you try to explain your understanding of salvation, you do not mean the same things we mean, because you understand it from an Adventist persepctiveóand that is NOT Biblical.

No, we're not setting ourselves up as having a superior "understanding" than you. Walk, we were Adventists, and a great many of us here LOVED being Adventist. I was proud of my Adventism, and I loved my life as an Adventist. I did NOT want to leave! It was my life, my identity, my social circle, my workóit was everything I was.

But when I met the Jesus of the Bible, I knew I had to be willing to walk out of that church if it meant Jesus was asking me to leave. I had to give up all that I lovedóand walk into all that I fearedóin order to let Jesus be my identity and my all-in-all. I had to act in integrity, committing to make my behavior match my beliefs. I had to leave the false gospel behind. I couldn't stay and try to redefine it. Staying implied that I endorsed the church, and the church has a fasle prophet and a false gospel.

I didn't CHOOSE to lose friends, professional contacts, the nest of my church, family, etc. I chose to give up even what I believed in order to let the word of God be my foundation of truth and in order to allow Jesus alone to be my life.

He is SO MUCH GREATER than the church! He loved me so much He gave me Himself instead of the church.

No, saving the church is not the issue. Salvaging an organization built on falsehood is not what God is doing. He is calling individuals to have integrity and to look only to Him, allowing Him alone to be their destination and reward.

Colleen
Tisha
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Username: Tisha

Post Number: 207
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk, one more thing I didn't address - and I want to make this very clear - I didn't leave the SDA Church due to "pain", I didn't run because of discouragement or anger. I want you to be very clear about this if you are writing a book about "Formers".

I left when what I was learning from my Bible left me wondering about the SDA theology. I left when I knew it was hypocrital to stay, when I could no longer allow my name to give support and acknowlegement to the SDA denomination. I needed to be free from all that before I could be a witness to others!

I was born and raised SDA, my family (parents and children) are SDA. All my friends were SDA and I felt very attached to all of that. I didn't want to acknowledge, at first, that I would have to leave all that behind. I wanted to stay and change the church from within. I would have loved to stay put and see all those around me finally understand and accept the truth. But the more I learned the more I KNEW I could not stay and those others were not going to change. Each one has to make their own journey, in their own time.

So I left and started really studying and learning more and more. It wasn't until I was away for a while that it really hit me what the basic problem was - and it was all a result of the core SDA theology. They just don't understand the truth about Grace, about Jesus'work being COMPLETE at the Cross!

Once that became clear to me, my life changed dramatically - not so everyone might notice. But the Peace and Joy, the wonderful community of the whole Christian community of believers, the ability to finally understand what I was to witness about! All that became a wonderful, freeing, "shout it from the rooftops" experience for me. I just didn't understand any of this until I broke free of the bondage of my SDA indoctrination and turned to the Bible only.

Knowing I am Saved today, right now while I am a sinner, Jesus already paid the price for me on the Cross - That is true JOY AND PEACE!

tisha
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 829
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tisha writes: So I left and started really studying and learning more and more. It wasn't until I was away for a while that it really hit me what the basic problem was - and it was all a result of the core SDA theology. They just don't understand the truth about Grace, about Jesus'work being COMPLETE at the Cross!

Pheeki concludes: That is why the SDA church is nearly JOYLESS! They are still waiting on Jesus to act. They don't realize He has done it all, already! For them it's still hanging in the balance.
Walkonwater
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Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am curious.

Have you also given up the Second Coming since it is taught by Adventists?

Do you beleive in the secret rapture?

WalkOnWater
--------------------------------------
TenBLoÿ@hotmail.com
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1501
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk, adventists did not invent the second coming, neither are they the 'only' group that teaches it. They are the only ones I know, however, who justify thinking they were beyond Jesus own words that it's not for us to know the times or seasons of the second coming.

Recognizing the reality of the second coming is one thing, but no one teaches the scenario adventists do. I pretty much completely reject a vast majority of everything I've read about their assumptions and requirements and supposed 'proofs' of various symbolic language. Their 'scenario' is no less errant than many of the so-called popular versions today. NO ONE knows fully what will be at that time, or when it will be. I have no doubt Christ will return. What happens between here and there is veiled as we don't have full definition of all the symbols, etc.

Believing in a catching away is hardly 'unscriptural'. There are many varieties of understanding of 'when', but believing in a catching away is neither unBiblical, nor heretical. Many God-fearing, honest people understand scripture in a way that supports their belief. I have listened to them, and they point to nothing but scripture to get to their beleifs. Are they wrong? Some think so. Are they unChristian for such a belief? No. I know a pastor who teaches it and he routinely says this is not an issue to divide over and that he routinely jokes with pastors who don't believe as he does that one or the other of them will get the "I told you so" when they get to heaven. They're not enemies or insulting towards each other for their disagreement. They live out the statement 'in as much as it depends upon you, live peacably with all men'. I wish the SDAs I knew were as interested in that as they are about thinking they're 'better' than others.
U2bsda
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Username: U2bsda

Post Number: 282
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW,

I don't know what the popular stance on that issue is here.

The "secret rapture" term is a term that Adventists use. Christians typically refer to it as the rapture. Also, those who do believe in the rapture believe there are 2 events: a rapture and a second coming. As an Adventist I was taught that the people who believed in the secret rapture were way off because the second coming would be anything but quiet and every eye would see Him. I was surprised to learn that those who did follow the "secret rapture" belief were not the ignorant people I once thought they were. The people who believe in the rapture also believe that there is a second coming that will be anything but quiet and every eye will see Him. That was yet another way I felt misled. Hearing Doug B on 3ABN smugly saying that of course there is no secret rapture because of....every eye...not quiet. does make me sad because I feel they are intentionally misleading people for surely Doug B knows that people who believe in the rapture also believe in the second coming.

As for me, what is my stance? Right now, I do not have a firm stance. Whether pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib what matters most is that I am in Him and right now it is okay for me to not know.
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 432
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think most of us here on FAF have taken the position that we don't really know all of the "hows" about His return, but that definitely He is returning.

When we've gotten into "pre-trib or post-trib" in past threads, usually the post-trib has won here, but the bottom line is that we're not going to reject one another over interpretations gathered from apocalyptic symbolism. We find unity in what is clearly written & revealed, and the things that are debatable we hope to explore in love, and at the end of the day hope we'll still be loving one another with Christ's love.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2945
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After reading all this thread, I am reminded that when I gave up adventism, I also gave up the need to have all the answers. It is so good to say, I do not know. It is not that I do not want to know, but there are no definite answers. The gospel is very clear-Jesus. All other things, that are not salvation issues, are interesting to discuss, but no one has all the answers. That is okay with me.
God has all the answers and He will answer everything in His time and not ours. He is so awesome.
Diana
Susans
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Username: Susans

Post Number: 41
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Diana, it's a very good reminder.

Susan
Mrsbrian3
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Username: Mrsbrian3

Post Number: 65
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, WOW, we haven't given up on the second coming. Just looking to it now with calm assurance and a certainty that we didn't have as SDAs. Reminds me of a recent conversation with my son. It was a partially sunny day and sunbeams were streaming through the clouds. He looks up and says ... the Adventists say that's how it's gonna look when Jesus comes back. Okay, get ready WOW, I told him they were right, that Jesus would be returning in the clouds with power and glory. So you see, we haven't turned our back on everything.

Kim

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