| Author | Message | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2006 |
Some of you have asked me to share my story. I have no motivation in presenting this other than to show how good God is. _________________________________________________ I dropped out of the SDA church in the late 80's because I finally, in discouragement, gave up trying to live up to a standard I could not reach. At the time, I was working in a line of work which exposed me to many temptations and I finally figured, "What the heck! I am lost anyway, why not enjoy myself while I can." But the freedom Satan offers is worse than the bondage Iíd found in the church and I ended up so broken I picked up a shotgun one day to blow my brains out. The gun was very old and I had never shot a shotgun before, so I decided to fire one round into a dirt bank behind my house to make sure the thing worked. God spoke to me in that shot! The incredible power of the blast woke me to how final such an act would be. I did not ìfind Godî that day. Instead I began a very long, uphill battle, to find out who He was and how I was supposed to relate to Him. During this time I went through two divorces that nearly killed me. In desperation I started going to non Adventist churches. Assembly of God, Baptist, etc, etc. hoping they might have some answers. I loved the enthusiasm and life at those churches. But after the lifting of the hands and the moving music and the excitement and tears I found I still had a void in my soul. In the still of the night the doubts and fears and discouragement came rolling back. The first thing that really started me on the road to recovery was moving back to the town where my parents lived. They had been going through some tough times too and we decided to make a covenant. We committed to getting together every single day to jointly seek the Lord. We knew we needed answers and we decided to test the promise, you will find Me when you seek Me with all of your heart. Our commitment was an act of desperation. We desperately needed to know God in a different and new way. These daily times together with the Lord were not the typical hand-on-the-doorknob-because-we-have more-important-things-to-do times of worship. These were times of real soul searching and crying out to God. Things did not change much at first. In fact my second divorce came shortly after we began our search for God. But we kept on seeking Him. Our meeting times often stretched into an hour or hour and one half. And God was faithful. He honors us when we cry out to Him. We began to learn to praise Him in EVERY situation no matter how good or bad. We started learning to claim His promises and how to walk the walk of faith. During that time I fell in love and we planned to be married. She was SDA and we chose an SDA Church to be married in. I would attend church with her because she wanted me to not because my heart was in it. In fact I was fearful I would come back under the failure and condemnation Iíd found before. And then something explosive happened. The pastor of that church, a man in his 60ís, suddenly gave up the ministry, gave up Adventism, gave up his wife, gave up his children, and ran off with another woman. The church was in shell shock! But I was cynical. ìSo this is where Adventism gets peopleî I thought to myself. In my judgmental smugness I had not learned yet that God uses extreme situations to bring about radical changes. A temporary minister was called in and the first thing he said was something like, ìThis church is in shock and if ever we need prayer it is now." Then instead of preaching a sermon he showed a video named "My House Shall be Called a House of Prayer" by Jim Cymbala, senior pastor of the non denominational Brooklyn Tabernacle in Brooklyn, New York. For those of you who have seen that video you will know how powerful it is. As I listened to the message that day I was totally overwhelmed with what he said. He described what a church should really be. He spoke of how God really does answer prayer and gave a concrete, real life, personal example of how God answered him when he went through the darkest days of his life. As I listened I could not stop the tears that rushed down my cheeks. Here was something REAL! Here was religion the way it was supposed to be. It seemed this man was really connected with God and he helped me really believe God is actually there. I left that meeting with a new hope that Jesus really did love me and He would listen to someone as messed up as I was. I told my parents about the video & we ordered a copy plus we subscribed to audio tapes of Jimís weekly sermons. Our daily meeting with God, plus Jimís sermons were the turning point in my life. I would listen to the sermons over and over and marvel at Godís goodness and mercy. I fell in love with Jesus and was so on fire nothing could stop me from sharing what I had found. I asked God to open the doors so I could share what I had found with as many people as possible. He hit me with an overwhelming desire to share with Adventists what I had found. I knew from personal experience how discouraging Adventism could be and my heart wept for those who had not found Jesus but were trying to get to heaven by their own works. It was not long before God opened an opportunity at a nearby SDA Church to start a prayer fellowship group. (Note: A prayer fellowship group is very different than the typical mini church service of an Adventist prayer meeting.) I jumped at the chance. I was shocked when the pastor actually allowed me to show the Jim Cymbala video in church as the kickoff to the prayer fellowship. At the end of the video Jim makes an appeal for his audience to stand. I was totally shocked when I saw almost everyone in the church, with tears in their eyes, stand at Jimís invitation. It was clear that our church members were not simply watching a video. They were participating in an experience! Praise God!! That was 5 ‡ years ago and we have met resistance and discouragement (Satan never sleeps) but God has been faithful to His promises. We have seen miracles! We have seen lives changed. We have seen people really learning what it means to walk by faith. I have even been allowed to preach in a number of Adventist churches. The theme of our prayer fellowship is learning to walk in the Spirit, learning to walk by faith. We lift up Jesus and make Him wonderful. And that is also the theme of the sermons I preach. Before finding the Lord, I loved debating theology with Adventists. Debating the investigative judgment was a favorite of mine. Not long after finding the Lord I was having my prayer time. God impressed me powerfully, ìDrop the debating! Simply lift up Jesus. Make Him wonderful and I will take care of the rest.î So that is what I try to do. In conclusion, I can say from the bottom of my heart that God honors those who diligently seek him. As I look back, I see His hand at work in all I have gone through. He used the desperation I felt at being an Adventist. He used the desperation I felt at not being able to measure up. He used the desperation I felt when I went Satanís way. He used the desperation I felt when I went through my divorces. He used it all to bring me to the point of crying out to Him with all my heart. He used it to get me to determine, come hell or high water, to set my heart to seek Him. When that happens, it sets the stage for joy to begin. WalkOnWater ------------------------------------------------- PS:If anyone out there would like a copy of Jim Cymbala's sermon, "My House Shall Be Called a House of Prayer", our Prayer Fellowship will send you a copy free of charge. It is part of our desire to lift up Jesus. Email us at feedback@swordspoint.org | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 205 Registered: 4-2006  |
It seems to be available on the Internet as well: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1722 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 240 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Walk, Thanks for sharing your story. You seem to really have a yearning to lift up Jesus. As you can see from all the posts here, Jesus gets all the glory. I'm still wondering what compelled you to join this forum. Everyone here has left or is in the process of leaving, or like me has family in SDAtism. Is it a natural curiosity on your part? I joined because I married an SDA member. I have attended my Lutheran church all my life (I'm 39) and have been an active Christian for as long as I can remember. I never could agree with or believe in the major SDA doctrines, plus I've been looked down on or condescended to, or insulted in some way by my SDA in-laws regarding my faith. After years of much frustration, I prayed one morning and asked a question of God that I had always been afraid to ask. I said "Lord, is the SDA church really right? Have I had it wrong this whole time? Is the SDA church really your remnant?" That very day, (I think it was April this year) I typed "SDA remnant church" into Yahoo. What I came up with was www.SDAoutreach.org. What I learned that day was that the SDA church is not the remnant. I also learned that EGW is a false prophet. Through SDAoutreach, I found the FAF forum. Finally I was able to ask questions about SDA doctrine from people who knew it inside and out. This is such a wonderful group who have embraced me, and have given all biblical answers to some of my craziest and/or dumbest questions! These people, many of whom followed EGW to the letter in some cases, have been able to break free from her messages of bondage and death and embrace Christ's freedom and salvation in the New Covenant. Since you've been able to read all these stories, I guess what I'm asking is, (With much respect)what is your motivation? The SDA church teaches without apology that it is the remnant church. It teaches that those who are not SDA are babylon, and that those of us who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast. It teaches that Jesus' attonement was not complete on the cross (contrary to what the Bible states) and that Satan is the scapegoat for our sins. What do you believe? If you agree with the doctrines above, why would you want to spend time in this forum? According to your church you're associating with babylon. I'm also wondering if you believe that you're saved? Do you believe in the pure gospel (1 cor 15, 1-4)? Do you believe that it's by believing the gospel alone that saves you (by grace alone)? And if so, why do you continue on in the SDA church? These are all questions I ask from my heart. I'm very curious about you. Thank you, God's blessings, Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4808 Registered: 12-2003  |
WalkOnWateróthank you for sharing your story. I find that Leigh Anne has articulated my own questions very well. I'd like to add a couple: 1. Could you completely give up the seventh-day Sabbath without possibly compromising your salvation? 2. If what you believe is not true, would you want to know? 3. Can you tell about coming face-to-face with your own depravity, hearing the gospel and meeting Jesus, and submitting everything you are and who you are to follow only Him? I truly don't mean to sound rund or disrespectful, Walk. I do believe, however, that it is possible to become involved in prayer and "spirit-filled worship" without actually examining either one's bottom-line personal risk of commitment or dealing with the implications of one's doctrines. While the immersion in prayer and worship may be enriching and powerful in many ways, it does not equate personal "giving up" to Jesus and being willing to jettison WHATEVER He reveals is not of Him. I know absolutely (and from personal experience) that one can be Adventist and desire to live for God, even devoting one's life to Him and praying to be used of Him, without experiencing the reality of the true gospel and the absolute security of salvation and of God's total and complete sovereignty. Even when one wants to follow Jesus, there is bondage when one is still in Adventism. Please don't feel we are attacking youóbut I do pray that you'll look really closely at what your life is endorsing. Colleen | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Leigh Anne: YOu have asked a lot of good questions. As for my motivation for coming to this web site it would probably boil down to two things. 1. I have always known people left the SDA Church but except for my own personal experience, I had not heard their personal stories. I guess I am naturally a curious person and I have always wondered why people leave the SDA Church. When I found out about the Former Adventist web site recently I was anxious to check it out so I could interact with people who could answer my questions. Another example of my curiosity is that I listen to people like Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity, etc on the radio from time to time. I almost have to hold my nose when I listen to them because I disagree with so much of what they say and represent. But I beleive it is wise to be informed and to understand other people's point of view. If I keep myself cloistered in my own little world of ideas, then I would become very narrow minded and self focused. I also listen to a lot of non Adventist preaching and programs on radio and TV. I watch Tinity Broadcasting even though I don't agree with everything I hear and see there. I want to thank those who have shared their stories. It has been very helpful. 2. I am writing a book on Adventism and I feel it is very important to understand as accurately as possible why people leave and why people join the SDA Church. As for your other questions, I do have answers for those but it probably would not be appropriate for me to discuss those things here. This is your website not mine and I want to honor that fact. I will say this however. I can answer with a resounding "YES" to your last three yes/no questions. God bless, WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2006 |
As I already said, this is your web site, not mine. I want to honor that fact. So rather than giving you a long outline of my theological positions please allow me to ask a few questions. 1. Could Daniel be a born again, Spirit filled Christian while living in the heart of Babylon and while being a high government official in Babylonís government? 2. Could Paul be a born again, Spirit filled Christian while living his last years in the very heart of the Roman Empire? 3. Could a person be a born again, spirit filled Christian while remaining a member, or a pastor, of the SDA Church? What are your thoughts? WalkOnWater | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2918 Registered: 3-2004  |
Walkonwater, You mentioned that you are writing a book on Seventh day Adventists and you want to understand why people leave and why people join this church? I am curious as to the reason for this book, as well as the answers to the questions asked by Leigh and Colleen. You have the same username of an SDA who posted on a website I and others from here used to write on. Curious coincidence??? Diana | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 565 Registered: 7-2004  |
Interesting questions, and I see the point you are trying to make, but I don't think it's a completely accurate comparison. Unless you're going to say being in the SDA church for you is more about a role or position unrelated to spirituality and not about church membership or fellowship. It was very clear with both Daniel and Paul where they stood spiritually--they hid nothing. In any cases I have been aware of, an SDA member in a leadership position, or SDA pastor, who boldly stood up for the full gospel and unabashedly spoke against SDA heresies (EGW's teachings), didn't last very long in the SDA church. And I know if an SDA changed their theology to no longer agree with the SDA position on the Sabbath and the state of the dead, they'd be booted out even quicker. I don't know of any cases with Daniel or Paul where they kept up expected appearances, for the sake of where they were geographically located, or for any other reason. In fact, Daniel was thrown in the lion's den over his convictions, and Paul had many imprisonments, persecution, and other hardships. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2006 |
Walk, I am going to be very honest here, SDA is a cult, when all the doctrines are boiled out, after studying the thing three years, I could reach no other conclusion, I verified my findings with prominent former sda pastors, I did that by sending them my final analysis. If you say God lead you there then I have to take your word. I too have a burden for them, I feel many will be lost and I have a lot of sda friends. But to dwell there week after week without the support of a good Bible based church would be for me like sitting on a limb and holding on with one hand while I sawed with the other. It would be like holding truth in one hand and error with the other. I do have a Bible study with them where we each take turns reading the scripture from page to page, through the Bible and I can live with that, yet I know they are interpreting what is being read far different than the way I am interpreting what I read, at the same time I had to quit studying with a group that used Bible Readings for The Home, if you are familiar with the book you know the book is in question and verse answer form. An awful lot of those questions and the verse answers are correct, yet overall the book is misleading. I too can make the Bible dance if I so desired but what profit is that? I think most the folks on this forum think somewhat along the same lines. I believe God used these sda friends and their Bible study to bring me back to the cross and repentance for my coldness to my savior, I truly got a taste of what Peter felt after he found he had denied his Lord and I surly do not recommend it. Maybe the fact that they played a part in bringing me back to the Lord in repentance is why I care for sda and former sda, I donít really know and really makes no difference why I care, I used too love computers more than I loved people, now I love people more than I love computers and I ask the Lord to help me care more. My interest is winning souls and helping people although I feel I am still a way too shallow. Your story above touched my heart for what thatís worth, I have been wrung out a couple times myself and there is snow on the old roof and I am getting long in the tooth. My time on this earth will soon be gone. The older I get the more I know that I will stand before God, just me and him. I just do not see how you do this without somehow identifying yourself with error, when I go to my church I am saying I am standing with them by my very presence there. This is probably far too honest and may get me kicked of the forum or a reprimand. I am not writing this in doubt of you, I am simply saying what it would be like for me. My opinion? These folks on this forum fled that scene with good reason. This is not meant to inflame in any manner. It is not meant to run down the sda or question your motives. My question would be, how on earth do you manage? I would be a bigger basket case than I am now. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 200 Registered: 3-2005 |
I'm not very sophisticated in speaking "theologically", but I can give answers to these question from a simple perspective. 1. Daniel was not a "spirit-filled" Christian in the sense of the New Testamant since he lived before Christ. But he was a man of God and obeyed God's commands, was a witness about the power of God to those in Babylon, and was in a visible position to be that witness. He did not compromise his belief in God's sovreignity. He fully trusted in God's will. 2. Paul was a born-again, spirit-filled Christian and proclaimed that where ever he was, whether in the comfort of familiar surroundings, or during his exiles. He was open about his belief and trust in God. He called others to honesty and right Christian living. He mentored other Christians, taught those who were searching, and never compromised his belief - although we know he felt his sinfulness acutely, he always pointed to Christ as his Saviour. 3. This is a point I struggled with while still SDA. I wanted to stay and make changes to the SDA denomination from within. But the more I came to understand the foundational deception and dishonestly that the SDA denomination is KNOWINGLY built on, I could not allow my name to be associated in any way with the denomination, because by so doing I gave credence and support to that system. I believe that there are sincere SDA's, that there are those who are seaerching for truth but haven't come to the place where they understand the need to depart from the SDA denomination. But, I think anyone who honestly takes a look at the FOUNDATION of the SDA's, will eventually find the need to leave. I think that speaks louder than any other testimony about one's Faith in Salvation by Grace through Jesus Christ alone. It is hard to show others in the SDA denomination that leap of Faith, if one still has a perceived "safety net" of SDA membership, as a 'Just in case I'm wrong" place to fall back on. I don't know if this is making any sense. I just know, that until I finally made that final break and truly realized I was FREE, that Jesus did it all, nothing I could do would save me, only then did I have a testimony to give to others that was real. So, my answer would be that one can not remain for long in the SDA denomination and remain a Spirit-filled Christian. That very membership in the denomination says that one accepts and believes all 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA's. If one does not believe this, then they are really living a lie, being a hypocrit. I don't mean to sound harsh as I say this. Only God is the judge in this. There can be an exception to anything if it is God's will. But, short of God's intervention, I would not think a Spirit-filled Christian can stay a member, or especially a pastor, of the SDA's and be truthful in their actions. Just my "two cents worth"! tisha | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 566 Registered: 7-2004 |
Regarding your questions of why people leave and why people join the SDA church, I can pretty much only speak about the leaving part. I was born into the SDA church and can't imagine why anyone would join it unless they were deceived. Although I did get my husband to join shortly before we married because despite all my uneasiness with EGW nonsense, I used to believe the SDA church was THE correct church. I think most people who leave the SDA church (whether or not names are officially removed) fall into one of two categories. 1) Those who give up because of the legalism and other theological issues (IJ, EGW), but still feel it's the SDA church or nothing. Even if they attend other churches (many don't) they still are pretty sure the SDA church is the only true church. Most of these people continue to be unhappy and dissatisfied. Many of us, including myself, fell into this category at a previous time. Some in this cagtegory go back eventually to try again (I did this), or because they miss the familiar culture. 2) Those who discover the truth of Jesus and recognize the incompatibility between Truth and SDA theological heresies. That would be most of us now, and it's impossible to go back once this has happened. And we certainly have no regrets! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2175 Registered: 3-2005 |
Walkonwater, I appreciated reading your story, and I will take you at your word, that you are a person who cares about truth, and seeks after truth. I just hope you stay on here and read all the stories on this website of all the people who have left Adventism, and I hope that you read some of the threads of the theological discussions that led most of us on here to leave Adventism. If your motive for staying in the SDA church is to influence people to believe the true gospel of justification by faith alone, then it is still possible that God wants you there temporarily. I also know of people who had a similar story to yours, where they went out into the world and really lived it up, and then got saved and then rejoined, or joined the SDA church, but then the Holy Spirit started showing them more light and truth. Sometimes God starts with where we are in life and where we are comfortable, but he doesn't leave us there. I believe that you are here by no accident, as Chuck Missler has said so well "there are no accidents in the kingdom of God", and I am praying that God's purposes will be worked out as you continue and read why we are former Adventists. Stan | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2006 |
Flying Lady: I used to be on Christianty.com's forum. Was that the one you were on? WalkOnWater | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 241 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thank you for sharing your story Walk on water! Walk on water said "3. Could a person be a born again, spirit filled Christian while remaining a member, or a pastor, of the SDA Church? " While I agree that a person can be born again as an SDA I have a hard time reconciling the "spirit filled" part for someone who believes that their breath is their spirit. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 196 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Walk, I just finished listening to Jim Cymbala's sermon on Google video. Thank you for the recommendation, and also, thank you for your testimony and story. I have so many questions I want to ask you (I wish I could just sit down and "interview" you!). Your story and experience fascinates me. I also have so much I want to say, but most of it would be restating what's already been said here by others. I guess my biggest question for you is this: On your original thread about your daughter, you said at the end that you hoped that she would return. I guess I want to know why. If she is happy in the church she is in, and growing spiritually, and you acknowledge that there are serious problems with the theology and "disposition" of the SDA church, why would it be important to you for her to return? I understand you do not agree with everything the Methodist church believes (the one she's attending), but it doesn't sound like you believe everything the SDA church says either. Based on your reasonings for staying in the Adventist church (it sounds like evangelism -- freeing people from the bondage of their guilt, am I right?), I don't understand what difference it would make for her to remain where she's at. It sounds like she may have already found the freedom in Christ that you are trying to witness to the SDAs about. If she's growing there, why would you hope silently that she return to Adventism? Please understand I'm truly asking to understand, not to criticize. I'm just a little confused. If you feel God has lead you back to the SDA church, then I respect that. It just doesn't make any sense to me why God would lead someone back into a denomination built on deception. Nor do I understand why you would want your daughter to return to that unless you truly believed they were the "remnant" and only true church. I don't mean that harshly, just honestly. I'm just trying to understand. Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 197 Registered: 11-2005 |
WalkOnWater, In thinking about my above post more, I realized I made a few assumptions, which is why maybe I'm a bit confused. So I just want to throw out some questions in case you find extra time to respond to these (I know you've been flooded with questions!). 1) Do you feel the Adventist church is built on deception or just some misguided/misused theology? 2) What would you do if someone from your prayer fellowship group approached you about the problems with Adventist theology? Would you defend Adventism, even if it went against what they felt the "Spirit" was telling them? 3) What is it about the Adventist denomination that draws you or fulfills what you're looking for in a church? 4) What's the purpose of your book? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4812 Registered: 12-2003 |
Walk, when did you originally leave the church, and when did you return? One more question: do you believe Ellen White was a messenger of God for the Adventist church? Do you believe she still holds some significant role in the church today? Colleen | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for posting your story. Our stories are chapters in the book of our life, and I have great anticipation of what your future chapters might be. God leads us a step at a time as we are ready and prepares us for the next. Martin Luther became a monk in a corrupt and flawed organization before he became a powerful reformer and opponent of it. If you've never seen the movie, I'd encourage watching Luther. The life and times of Luther illustrate for us the challenges, the problems, yet the good of combating flawed thought systems. The child that hung himself struck powerfully to my soul; he acted on flawed information; flawed details create flawed theologies and generate flawed conclusions and actions. The fact that the flawed presentation of the Gospel created enough spiritual dissonance in you that you threw out God -- this should be motivation enough for us to take up the sword of truth and present Christ as our Righteousness and Savior, and to shine the Light of the Word on errors that detract from Him and his gift. What we have in Christ; what we are in Christ; what we will become in Christ is far superior to pet theological pyramids built on sandy foundations. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, I left in the late 80's and stayed out until the mid 90's. I began going back off and on between 95 and 2000 and then offically rejoined the church in 2000. By the way, I am not ignoring your questions although it probably seems that way. I am working on something I can post that hopefully will give some clarity as to where I stand on the issues many of you have brought up. I am currently in the middle of purchasing a home in another state and I have been spending entire days on the phone with real estate agents, mortgage companies, title companies, survey companies, government agancies, insurance companies, etc. etc. Oh for the days when one could buy a house by simply signing a few papers and the deal was done. We live in a different world. God bless, WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2006 |
I had planned to give a synopsis of where I stand in relation to the many questions you have posed. But on further reflection, I have decided, once again, that this is your site and my job is to try to understand you and your theology not be focusing on me and what I think. So I would like to ask you the following question. How you see God? What is the chief attribute of His character? Now let me try to answer my own question based on what I have been reading here. Let me know how well I do. Okay? I would say the most important characteristic of God is His sovereignty. He is a God of majesty and power and holiness. A God who is ultimately in control of the universe. Even sin and Satan are not outside His control. He is Lord over them and in fact has defeated them. He will work out His plans and ultimetly nothing will stand in His way. Some say it as a violation of His love to consign the wicked to hell for all eternity. But, in fact, it would be a violation of His holiness not to. How did I do? What would you add or change? WalkOnWater |
