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Archive through October 23, 2006Agapetos20 10-23-06  7:57 pm
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Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ha! I like it, River!

U2bsda, I do agree that if the Spirit is praying through a person in prayer language, that would be a prayer reflecting God's will. And, as Raven said above, that is a gift which not everyone is given.

But God is faithful and gracious!

Colleen
River
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I said I wouldnít say anything else about it on this thread but I do want to say this, its not a matter of haveís and have nots. Itís a matter of what the Holy Spirit wants to do. I do not speak with tongues and wear it like some badge. I just thank God he hasnít done away with me before now. This thing he has done is not due to my own holiness. It is not a matter of what I want but what Jesus wants.
I do want to encourage everyone here, not too close your mind to the scriptures, one thinks the scriptures mean one thing, another thinks it means another, ask, study, seek to know the Lord better, seek a closer walk with him while you have time.
Dawn says she thinks she will just skip the study her group is having and in doing so she may miss what God has for her.
If I had had a closed mind I would not be here on this forum today. When I first met the Adventist it plunged me into years of Bible study but folks I was not trying to prove them wrong, I was trying to prove me wrong.
2 Tim 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Notice the last word, sound mind, logic and reasoning and prayer is needed.
A particular mark I see of the hardline Adventist is stubbornness and hardness of heart and a refusal to reexamine.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
What these folk appear to be saying here is that, we are ready too listen and then go back into the scriptures and search it out, take another look at it. The scriptures were their bottom line.
I see Paul using common old everyday reasoning in much of his teachings.
When I go at the word, I try to bring everything that I have at my disposal to try to determine what God has already said, my spirit, his spirit, my mind, logic, ability to reason, everything at once and still fall short much of the time.
The most of the folks on this forum have what I will never have, the ability to view Adventism from the inside as well as from the outside.
In acts chapter 8, the problem Simon had was he thought the disciples were the givers when they laid hands on folks so he asked them for the power and his failure to see that it was the Holy Spirit working through them was disastrous. To tell you the truth I am more leery of Pentecostals than I am of the Evangelicals, the reason being that some seem to get things out of balance easily and I donít say that with a critical spirit I do hope.
Well there I have gone and preached again, well I ìYam what I Yamî.
I do want to encourage today that when you seem divided on issues, you will again turn to Calvary, which seems to be my base camp a lot of late. I suppose when you get right down to it, it has always been my ìBase campî, when I find the mountain a little too steep, I just return to ìBase campî, camp out at the feet of Jesus, he pours oil over my wounds, I shove my nose into his cup up to my eyeballs and drink deeply, then I am ready to ìGo at it againî.
Mwh
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"... The believers that I am familiar with say that tongues is so you can pray God's perfect will. ..." U2BSDA

I find that hard to belive, why should only some Christians be able to pray "God's perfect will"?

Also I would just pray "your will be done", Matt 6:10 in my own language.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit do move us in prayer, places the words on our tongues.

Mwh
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"If you want to be sure you are 'praying God's will', pray Scripture." Colleen

Very good advice, I like it.
U2bsda
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mwh said "I find that hard to belive, why should only some Christians be able to pray "God's perfect will"?"

I don't believe that only some Christians should be able to pray God's perfect will. I believe the prayer-language tongues is for all believers. Here is a link that explains the issue further. If anyone thinks they will be offended by reading this please do not click on the link :-) http://www.angelic.org/originalsite/speakingintongues.html
River
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

U2bsda,
Well, I clicked on the link and I do believe it is the best explanation I have ever heard on this subject.
I do appreciate the link.
Raven
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All of 1 Corinthians 12, particularly verse 29 makes it abundantly clear that tongues is not for all believers. There are varieties of gifts given by the same Spirit--to one person one gift, to another a different gift, etc.

BTW, thanks for the warning :-) I didn't click the link - maybe I will later, but I'm pretty sure I'm understanding the Bible correctly on this point.

River mentioned earlier that we should not be stubborn and close-minded. Well, I may be stubborn, but I don't think I'm close-minded. If I were, I'd be a cessationist. People who know me well generally consider me to be one of the most objective people they know. That objectivity is why I am so adamant (stubborn) about being careful to consider factual only what the Bible states, and go no further. That's why I agree there is some type of tongues, and/or prayer-language tongue whether or not I understand what that all means. But I do not see the Bible saying it is for all believers, and I do not see the Bible saying a purpose for prayer-language tongues is so that we can pray God's perfect will. The Holy Spirit accomplishes that for all our prayers, with or without tongues.

As far as whether Wolfgang goes to the study, obviously that's between her and God. Just so it's recognized that every theological statement or belief someone makes must be carefully compared to what the Bible actually says. Maybe, Wolfgang, you can present that concept to your group!
Raven
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, I clicked on the link and recognize having read that webpage before. The gist of what I see it saying is that there are diverse tongues (different human languages) and unknown tongue (heavenly language). They are saying diverse tongues are a gift, and the unknown tongue is available to every believer. When discussing 1 Corinthians 14, if they talk about tongues, they decide that means the gift of diverse tongues; if they talk about tongue they decide that means the unknown heavenly language. Notice the difference between singular and plural on the word tongue.

It looks like in either case (tongues or tongue) in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul says there must be an interpreter to speak it in church. That's funny, because I always thought the human languages gift of tongues didn't require an interpreter, as in Acts 2. That's why I always saw a clear difference between Acts 2 tongues and 1 Corinthians 14 tongues.

Not sure if I can concur that webpage's conclusions can all be reached from Scripture alone - I'm still processing it. Regardless, I still don't believe the purpose of prayer language is to pray God's perfect will, as I've said many times. The only clear reason I see Scripture giving as the purpose for praying/speaking in an unknown tongue is for that person's edification - whatever that entails.
Mwh
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it must be interpreted so everybody can be encouraged by your prayer.

A bit like if I went to a church in another country and started praying loud in by native tongue, it would have to be interpreted for the rest of the congregation to be encouraged.
River
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven,
I donít see you as stubborn or closed minded, you are just guarding your mind gate, seems like I remember that subject in theology, I canít remember exactly what was said about it but it was something in regards to guarding the gates of our mind. Even when I go to church and the mister begins to speak on a subject, he will usually if not always give some passage of scripture or even several scriptures, the minute he starts preaching, my mind gate slams shut until I have read, listened and digested what is said.
Raven
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, River, I don't know if I'd word it quite that way but I guess that's pretty close to what happens with me. And I think it's a good idea to carefully make sure ideas line up with the Bible before swallowing them hook, line, and sinker. I would think as former SDA's, most here (if not all) are careful about that, which makes everyone very cautious about changing any views they feel they have already compared closely with the Bible.
Agapetos
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 7:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Praying in the Spirit"... does it mean "praying in tongues"?

I said a basic "not always"... however I think when looking at the Bible, the expression usually does refer to tongues. I'll explain.

Basically I base this on 1st Corinthians 14:14-17, where Paul writes:

quote:

FOr if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.


From here we can see that "praying with my spirit" parallels "praying in a tongue", and "praying with my mind" parallels "praying in an intelligible language".

Earlier in 14:2 Paul wrote,

quote:

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one undertands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit (margin: or "by the Spirit")."


The expression "pray in the Spirit" (which can be found only in Ephesians & Jude) seems to find a clear explanation here in 1st Corinthians 14. Not only that, but the expression "pray in the Spirit" seems somewhat different or set apart from regular "prayer". Paul exhorts believers to pray, but then he exhorts them to "pray in the Spirit" ("at all times" -- that is, kairos times, not chronos). And likewise Jude instructs believers to "pray in the Holy Spirit". This kind of expression is seen only in Ephesians, Jude & 1st Corinthians. It doesn't show up anywhere else, with the likely exception of Romans 8.

Now, as to the question, "Does praying in the Spirit mean praying in tongues?" I think that the answer would be yes---outwardly, it usually looks that way. But the Spirit is not concerned with the outward appearance of things. The consistent direction God leads us in the NT is to the heart. Romans 8 gives a good inner definition for "praying in the Spirit" by simply saying, "The Spirit makes intercession for us."

The problem is that we're not usually used to experiencing Romans 8:26! We're used to praying and assuming that the Spirit makes this intercession without our ever feeling it. And true, we do not depend on feeling, but we live by faith. At the same time, that doesn't mean that He isn't able to let us know as we pray that He is actively doing it. The problem, perhaps, is that we are used to silence... we are used to feeling nothing, hearing nothing, experiencing nothing, and basically expecting nothing. In short, "faith" to us has come to mean that we feel something like a somewhat one-sided relationship. As we mature, of course, we know this isn't true, and we learn to hear God's voice in many ways -- through circumstances, a sudden peace, etc. But by and large we've shut ourselves off to the possibility of consciously experiencing the Spirit's intercession (whether by tongues or intelligible words).

In sum, what I'm saying is that from what the Bible says, it appears that "praying in the Spirit" usually looks like "praying in tongues". However, the important thing is not the outward appearance, but rather the inward spirit to Spirit connection, submission, and communication. Despite the apparent "norm" of "praying in the Spirit = tongues" in the NT, I believe that this can be manifested in intelligible languages simply because... well, that's the same way prophecy works: God speaks, we understand, agree & speak.

One of the problems we'll run into in considering this connection in Scripture, however, is that it seems to portray a possibly shocking discrepancy when held in comparison with our modern Christian experience. In other words, most Christians don't speak in tongues. Most may have little experience with consciously recognizing the voice of the Spirit in their prayers (which doesn't mean the Spirit isn't interceding... He can and does whether we know it or not, and additionally many of the things we pray are certainly given by the Spirit but we do not recognize that it is His voice planting them).

It's hard for us to admit discrepancies between the NT church and our modern church, but if we look, such discrepancies are all over the place, and we have nothing to fear from looking at them. Satan will sometimes challenge us with them and try to make us feel inferior (or like the person who points them out is trying to make us feel inferior, but that is not always true, and we need to realize that there is a very real "third party" trying to get us to claw & scratch at one another).

An example of a discrepancy is the much-discussed "baptism of the Holy Spirit", which in the NT seems to have almost always been accompanied by speaking in tongues. While I don't think it's a rule, it does seem (within the NT) like not speaking in tongues when baptized by the Spirit was the exception instead of the norm. Today we have it in reverse. We expect no tongues, except very, very rarely (I say "we" referring to those who do not consider themselves "charismatic" or "pentecostal", etc.). Of course we have explanations for this, but the explanations (particularly that of the cessationalist) are pretty weak Scripturally.

Other simple examples of discrepancies between the NT church and our modern church are 1) the seeming regularity of miracles, 2) the amounts of mass conversions & family conversions, and 3) the unity exhibited by the NT church. (!) (We should pause for the cause on that last point!)

Additionally, when we use 1st Corinthians 14, we use it to downplay tongues. Yet we use it without realizing that in place of tongues, Paul emphasizes prophesying! (Well, perhaps we don't want to allow it to emphasize that!) When people pursue the gift of prophecy in keeping with the chapter, we of course find a way to downplay that and move elsewhere. While some of our arguments are indeed correct in the downplays, at the same time, we ought to recognize that we're using what Paul wrote mainly to keep prophecy & tongues as a rare thing. In contrast, Paul writes of the whole church prophesying in the chapter! That's incredible! Clearly there's a discrepancy between the NT & modern churches there.

But that's not a problem, so long as we recognize it and don't rush to explain the discrepancy away. If we acknowledge it, ask the Lord about it and wait on Him, He will answer us... and whatever He gives is exactly what is best for us, even if it is silence. It's imperative, though, that we don't define "the norm" with our modern experience, but rather let the NT define what "the norm" is.

That is a two-way street, of course. Pentecostal/Charismatics need to refrain from making their modern experience "the norm", and parallel to that, non-charismatic/non-pentecostals need to refrain from making their experience "the norm" as well.

Like the Psalms that speak of vengeance & wrath, these discrepancies need to be humbly acknowledged... "Lord, we don't know, but help us see & understand. We won't rush to conclusions. We love You & You're our everything."
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone, I agree with this: "Pentecostal/Charismatics need to refrain from making their modern experience "the norm", and parallel to that, non-charismatic/non-pentecostals need to refrain from making their experience "the norm" as well."

It's never possible for us to state unequivocally how God would or wouldn't manifest Himself. He chooses how and when to manifest Himself, and He decides what gifts to give whom. It's not our job to decide that God "wouldn't" give certain gifts mentioned in the Bible not to expect that He "would" give them every to believer when the Scriptures clearly say He gives them according to His will.

I personally have a hard time with the explanation that if people weren't "afraid", or if people were not unconcsiously resisting because they don't actually believe certain things would happenóthen they would experience various gifts. That explanation suggests that our resistance limits God.

To be sure, our resistance limits our experience of God, but when a person knows Jesus and asks Him to accept him as a living sacrifice, to do whatever He desires in and through him, then God's not granting certain gifts is related to God's will for him rather than the person's resistance to God.

I'm quite certain that the Jews at Pentecost, the Samritans in Acts 8, and Cornelius's family (not to mention Peter and the other Jewish believers who were there) did not expect to baptized with flames and receive the gift of tongues. I'm quite sure that their lack of expectation and their possible resistance to the power of God Almighty did not limit God's granting these gifts to them.

We actually do not limit God. He grants us gifts according to His will. If we are willing to receive whatever He wants us to have of Him, He will give it. If He chooses for us to experience Him interceding for us by giving us the gift of tongues, He will do it. If He chooses instead to give us awareness of His faithful intercession on our behalf in other ways, He will do that.

Our concern individually must be to stay honest and vulnerable to Jesus. We are instructed to put off the old self, to live by the Spirit, to offer ourselves as living sacrifices, to faithfully speak forth the gospel, to honor God with our bodies, to worship Him in spirit and in truthóand we will receive from Him the fruit of the Spirit in full (Galatians 5:22-23), and the gifts of the Spirit as He wills them (1 Corinthians 12:11).

There certainly are spiritual gifts that I admire and even would like to be given. Yet I have had to thankfully realize that God has gifted meófor now, at leastówith my own package of His grace for His own purposes, and I am to gratefully thank Him and worship Him and honor Him and live for Him. And I pray that He will do in me what He wishes to do and what He knows needs to be done.

He is trustworthy and faithful!

Colleen

River
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 1:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well this whole conversation puts me in mind of some one attempting to describe an elephant that has never seen an elephant.
When we get to heavens gates will we want to turn back if it doesnít look normal?
A fellow got up to heaven gates carrying a sack and St. Peter says ìWhat do you have in the sack?î
And the fellow told him ìOh, its just something I like and wanted to keep so I brought it along.î
Peter says to him ìWell, you canít bring anything in here, every thing is furnishedî ìLet me see what you have there.î so the fellow brings out a gold bar.
St. Peter looked at him in amazement and says ìYou brought pavement!!??î
U2bsda
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen said "He grants us gifts according to His will."

I do agree with you Colleen. I believe the Bilbe is clear about that. I do believe there are two separate things - a gift of tongues (which has not exhibited itself in my life) and the prayer-language tongues.
Honestwitness
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is perhaps the most sane, balanced, Christ-like exchange of ideas about speaking in tongues I have ever had the privilege of observing. Thank you all for your maturity.

Having said that, I would like to respond to the comment that the gift of tongues in Acts is different from the tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. I used to wonder about that myself, but one day the Lord opened my thinking by asking me several questions (in my spirit, of course, not out loud) about the manifestation of tongues in Acts. Here are the questions:

1. On the day of Pentecost, how many different languages were spoken in tongues? (Answer: 16)

2. How many speakers were speaking tongues? (Answer: possibly around 120)

3. How many listeners were listening? (Answer: up to 3000)

4. Did all the listeners understand all of the languages spoken in tongues? (Answer: there's no way to know this for certain. We do know that some of the listeners understood at least one of the languages. We also know that some of the listeners may not have understood any of them, hence the accusation that the speakers were drunk.)

5. Did all the speakers speak only one language in tongues, or did each one speak all of the 16 languages mentioned? (Answer: There's no way to know this either, but I have always assumed each speaker spoke in only one tongues language. I don't have any grounds for this assumption, though. I guess that's the nature of an assumption.) <smile>

6. Did all the speakers in tongues UNDERSTAND all of the languages being spoken? For example, did Peter speak, perhaps, Libyan and also understand John as John spoke, perhaps, Pamphylian? (Answer: There's no way to know this one either, but it sure makes you stop and realize that we have built up a good many assumptions about what really happened that day, doesn't it?)

7. And here's the clincher...did any or all of the speakers in tongues understand the languages they themselves were speaking in tongues? (Answer: There is only one place in Scripture where we can find an answer that might apply to the events on the day of Pentecost, and that's Paul's first-person testimony of his own tongue-speaking experiences. Paul said, "When I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful." 1 Cor 14:14. This is as close as we can possibly get to finding scriptural proof to answer this question. All else is pure speculation.)

And now, for a little side-journey...let me share with you how I learned a valuable lesson from my practicing of amateur genealogy and how it applies to this topic. I learned from studying genealogy in order to do my family history, that one cannot necessarily depend on oral history to find the truth about one's ancestors. My grandmother did a wonderful job of passing down to me a treasury of family history "facts." But until I was able to verify each fact by a second witness (i.e. birth, marriage, or death records, etc.), I couldn't be certain my family stories were anything more than myth. Some of my assumptions did turn out to be wrong, as I really dug for facts in historical records. Ex: I found out one of my great-grandfathers was adopted. Whew! That really threw a wrench in the works!

In the same way, the Lord impressed on me that I should be careful to never deviate very far from what is actually written in Scripture when formulating doctrinal positions.

I learned from this that we only have one first-person testimony of what happens when a person speaks in tongues, and that is Paul's quote in 1 Cor 14:14. Since the Lord has chosen to give us only one first-person testimony in all of Scripture, we will just have to accept it as our only available guide when reasoning out the enigma of tongues. To go any farther than Paul's description of what it's like to speak in tongues is pure speculation. And the way I read it, Paul says that when he speaks in tongues, he doesn't understand with his mind what he's saying, but he does recognize that something is happening between his spirit and the Holy Spirit.

For what it's worth, my own experience of speaking in tongues could be described in the same way. I don't understand the words/syllables/sounds, because they're not 21st century American English. For all I know, they could be a language that existed on earth thousands of years ago in a land far away, or they could be a language spoken today by aboriginal peoples in the jungles of the Amazon. Or they may be no language that has ever been spoken in the entire universe except between Honestwitness and God.

But you know what? It doesn't matter, because something happens between my spirit and the Holy Spirit that goes beyond the limits of any language. As Paul said, "he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks mysteries to God." 1 Cor 14;2.

Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts on this mysterious and wonderful subject!

And now for an edifying thought in 21st century American English to keep us all grounded...

"Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world!" John 1:29

Honestwitness
Agapetos
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HW, thanks for that! I never realized the truth of what you said -- that we have only one Scriptural first-hand description from someone who spoke in tongues, Paul's description. That is very, very interesting, and very, very relevant.

One basic thing I realized is that no matter what "type" of tongue is about to come out, you feel the same way just before speaking. You go through a kind of uncomfortability because yes, it seems foolish and yes, you don't understand. The Spirit starts rising up inside and well, we're naturally uncomfortable with things we cannot understand... even if we know it's the Lord.

Colleen, I know this has been a point that has been difficult to consider when I've talked of some of these things. You've written that we cannot limit God, and in a sense this is absolutely true. But Paul also exhorts the Thessalonians "not to grieve the Spirit". He would not have said such a thing if it were not possible for the believers to do so. We might say that Paul was speaking for the sake of those who didn't fully believe, but if we read all of Thessalonians in context, we see that he was incredibly pleased with the believers in Thessalonica. His first letter to them also contains no rebukes or corrective statements.

The text from Luke about how Jesus could not do many miracles because of lack of faith has already been mentioned before. But there is another that also bears witness:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Lk.13:34)

Granted it is spoken to the persecutors of Jerusalem, but in it He also speaks of their children. Further, we see that He fervently desired to do something (likely with tears), yet He was limited by the will of the people there.

A third (or fourth?) witness to this is in 1st Corinthians 11. Paul writes that "many among [the Corinthians were] weak and sick, and a number have fallen asleep" (11:30). From the immediate context, we see that this was judgment (that is, discipline, not condemnation) from the Lord because they were not waiting on one another (discerning the Body of the Lord) when they took the Lord's supper together. Paul seems to imply that if they weren't doing this to one another, then they would not be "weak and sick and falling asleep". Were they to repent of this, the implication seems to be that these believers would find strength and healing.

What I'm saying is that at times I think God allows us to limit Him -- rather than forcing us. He desires our submission.

A final example of this is in James chapter 1, where James states that the person who doubts that God will give wisdom should not think that he will receive it from the Lord when he asks. Again, note that James is writing to believers (1:18, 2:1, etc.). In short, James writes that our doubts can sometimes hinder the receiving of a gift from God.

There are similar examples of "not having because we do not ask" all over the place in the NT, and of course I'll probably think of ten as soon as I turn off the computer!

I do believe in God's sovereignty, but the loud message I hear over and over from Scripture is that He desires our affections and submission, further that He has asked us "to ask of Him". When we receive in response to our asking, two things come into play -- His perfect timing and His desire, and also our willingness to ask and receive from Him. Yes, we wait on the Lord, the Sovereign Lord, but I see here the humbling paradox that at times it appears He may be waiting on us.

Logically these two ideas are mutually exclusive and cannot coexist. But somehow the Bible seems to show both perspectives. Just like the idea of Three Persons existing in One Being does not make logical sense, often we struggle with paradoxes that defy our logical systematizing. I believe that since the sovereignty of God and His desire for our willing submission (even waiting for our submission) are both clearly seen in Scripture, because of this I believe we are looking at two spiritual truths which are not reconciliable in human logic, but are both nevertheless true.

Like those Psalms which speak of wrath, anger and vengeance (instead of love for enemies), I believe this is something that we must bring to God for understanding, and that in Him we might find peace about it without denying either truth. (The problem when coming out of a systematic or logical theory is that we're so used to thinking things are mutually exclusive that we have trouble accepting both Biblical ideas for fear of losing one or the other.)
Honestwitness
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 5:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two further questions:

8. In which of the languages mentioned that day in Acts 2 did Peter preach his sermon, the result of which was that 3000 souls were saved? (Answer: Koine Greek. Everyone present -- or at least 3000 of them -- understood Peter.)

9. In what language was the New Testament written, including all the epistles? (Answer: Koine Greek. Everyone understood Koine Greek.)

These last points would seem to invalidate the theory that tongues were given for the purpose of spreading the Gospel.

Honestwitness
River
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to relate to you an incident that happened to me. Years ago God literally reached down and picked this old alcoholic up. I received Christ into my heart and about 2 months later received the ìBaptism in the Holy Ghostî.
Now I come from a straight evangelical background.
At any rate, after some months, I traveled back home to my fathers for a visit and the first thing next morning I walked into the living room and said ìHey Dad, I got baptized in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tonguesî and he looked at me with a sneer and said ìWell, if you need that sort of thing, but I donít need itî being a brand new Christian I was crushed, so went on into the bathroom and began to shave that morning but I could hardly see to shave for the tears streaming down my face because of my fathers rejection. Here I was, a grown man with his own family, weeping because of sneering rejection. This rejection coming from a man who professed to know Christ. My Dad.
Never heard a word about being thankful that the Lord had delivered me from deep alcoholism and drugs. He might not have known about the drugs but he certainly knew about the alcoholism.
It seemed to me that from that moment on I was viewed by my family as something ìThe dogís drug upî.
My wife and I both received this blessed experience of being ìBaptized in the Holy Ghostî.
Maybe that is the reason that after Dale referred me to this website, I sat and read the stories on the front of the site, stories of rejection by family and friends because they had had a new and meaningful experience in Christ Jesus and their soul was at last, at rest in him. Rejoicing on the one hand and grief on the other as they tried to explain to their church, their families and friends and I grieved with them. Is that too a gift from God? I do not know.
But I do know this, I need all that the Lord has for me, I am all too acutely aware of my own short comings, failures and faults. So if at times such as when I read the stories mentioned above and I slip into the Lords ìPrayer languageî then I too am blessed. Can I convince you who have not had this experience? I really donít know whether I should even try. The important thing too me is that you have been ìBorn againî, saved from the wrath to come.
For reference I give you Isaiah 28:10-12. Tongues are for a sign to the unbeliever, not the believer. We are believers, been ìBorn againî, washed in the blood. It is for that, that we can all rejoice together.
Maybe sometimes many of us are as Raven says îa little touchyî about our favorite scriptures and that ìtouchy-nessî could probably be traced to rejection. (or not)
I have no doubt that if we were all put into an auditorium and the speaker said ìeveryone who has been born again say ìAmenî there would be a resounding ìAmenî throughout that building. I really think the division comes when Christians try to convert each other, maybe the evangelicals and the Pentecostals could draw a line in the sand and have a go at beating each other silly with spit balls and wet noodles, now wouldnít that be a funny site.
I really donít think the Lord laughs at us, but I really get a kick out of us at times.
Colleentinker
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Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, River, for your insight. And just by -the-by, not all people who have not experienced prayer language fail to believe in it. Actually, many DO believe in it and would welcome itóbut God has not granted it.

Your point, River, about sharing Jesus and being truly "born again", washed in His blood, is the important thing. I suspect that one of the reasons not all truly on-fire, born again Christ-followers have experienced "tongues" is precisely because God wants us to understand that there is no "formula" for how life in Him will look.

Some things are guaranteed: the fruit of the Spirit, for example, is for ALL believers (Gal. 5:22-23). But the other gifts and manifestations are according to God's will. Nowhere does the Bible say that all believers will receive the gift of tongues.

Ramone, I understand your point about grieving the Spirit. But grieving the Spirit, in the Bible, involves hard-heartedness, self-centered brittleness, resistance to God's power, or other sin. Failing to experience certain gifts does not suggest a person has grieved the Spirit.

When Paul specifically mentions grieving the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 5:30, he is not talking about resisting the power of the Spirit. He is talking about engaging in sin. Verse 29 is a list of instructions: "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of yoru moutyhs, but only what is helpful to building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." And verse 31-32 continue, "Get rid of all bitterness, rage, and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionat to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

The study notes explain that the "grieving" in v. 30 refers to sin, such as the sins mentioned in the surrounding verses. It further states that the verb "grieve" is isgnificant because it shows that the Holy Spirit is a person, not merely a force.

We cannot use this passage to suggest that people are not experiencing gifts or manifestations of the Spirit because they are grieving Him. This passage is teaching that a Christ-follower is to put aside all sinful behaviors in order not to grieve the Holy Spirit. We cannot conclude that the lack of the gift of tongues is evidence of sin or resistance or unbelief.

To suggest that true Christ-followers may not experience tongues because of unbelief or because of resistance or fear is as offensive as it is to suggest that Christ-followers who do experience tongues are either "faking it" or are self-hypnotized or receiving a manifestation from the devil.

I beleive that God's plan is for all His children to be filled with the Spirit, filled with the authority of the Spirit that Jesus had when he astonished the Pharisees. But I believe His plan is for Christ-followers to be different from each other precisely because they will have different "jobs" and different arenas and people to serve.

There should never be a division in the body of Christ over gifts of the Spiritóor over the Holy Spirit Himself! We all are equipped and filled with Himóand we all are admonished to be obedient to Him, to be willing to give up our beliefs, fears, preconceived notions, and expectationis and be fully open to Him. He asks us to seek first the kingdom of God and to lay up our treasure in heaven.

God Himself, then, provides and supplies all our needs and all our gifting and equipping for His service.

Colleen
U2bsda
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for your comments Colleen. I appreciate you sharing on this potentially sensitive topic.

I do find there is a difference between believing that something exists and believing that the something that exists is for you. For instance, you may see cups of water on a table and know and understand that they are cups of water. Unless you know that the cup of water is for you to drink you will not reach out and take the cup that was placed there for you.

I find that this site http://www.james-dave.com/tongues2.html explains the reasoning behind tongues being available for all Christians. The site addresses these topics: I. ARE TONGUES AVAILABLE TO ALL CHRISTIANS?

II.WHAT IS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN TONGUES AND THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT?

III. I KNOW MANY WONDERFUL CHRISTIANS WHO DON'T SPEAK IN TONGUES.IF TONGUES ARE AVAILABLE TO ALL CHRISTIANS,WHAT ABOUT THEM?

IV. IF IT IS GOD'S WILL FOR ALL CHRISTIANS TO SPEAK IN TONGUES, THEN WHY DO SOME HAVE TROUBLE RECEIVING THEIR PRAYER LANGUAGES?

V. DO I HAVE TO SPEAK IN TONGUES?

Here is a short exerpt: "As for the other two manifestations of tongues, however, there are a number of Scriptures that clearly teach that they are for all Christians:

1. Jesus said "These signs shall follow THEM THAT BELIEVE...." one of them being "they shall speak with new tongues." (Mark 16:17)

2. At the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, ALL spoke with tongues. (Acts 2:4)

3. Throughout the Book of Acts, there is a consistent pattern of tongues being the initial evidence when someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2:1-4;Acts 10:44-46;Acts 19:2-7. (more on this next question.)

4. Paul desired all Christians to speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5)

5. The exhortations to "Pray in the Spirit" (Ephesians 6:18 )and "in the Holy Ghost" (Jude 20,) terms synonymous with praying in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:14-16,) are directed to all Christians.

I compare it to this :All Christians are to have faith (Mark 11:22; Ephesians 2:8,) but some have a special GIFT of faith (1 Corinthians 12:9.) All Christians are to be merciful (Matthew 5:7; Luke 6:36,) but some have a special ministry gift of mercy (Romans 12:8.) Likewise,the wonderful experience of praying in tongues is available to all Christians, but some have a special public ministry gift of tongues."
Agapetos
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Post Number: 433
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Colleen,

Sorry, I hope it didn't sound like I was citing what Paul wrote to say that the Spirit is grieved because not everyone is open to tongues. I did not mean to say that at all.

I'd better interject quickly that I believe Paul's statement about not all gifts being for everyone. There do seem to be different "types" of tongues in Scripture, however, they aren't given individual labels, so I lean towards accepting what Paul says of "tongues" for all types of tongues. I don't completely discount the possibility of a "prayer language" being available for all believers, but basically that is something between a believer and God. How do I know what He wants to give them or doesn't want to give them? As I've said, I have friends that pray by the Spirit -- that is, they let the Spirit lead them -- but do not speak in tongues. Although, the Lord did use one of these friends to deliver a message in tongues once (which was interpreted), however he does not regularly speak in tongues to my knowledge.

Anyhow, two things: 1) I don't mean to be saying that "tongues" are for all believers, and 2) I do not mean to be saying that not being open to tongues grieves the Spirit.

My point in referencing Paul was simply that God has given us the ability to hinder the Holy Spirit in our lives. I wrote what I did in response to Colleen's comment that our resistance does not limit God.

I see that I mixed the Ephesians text with the Thessalonians text (sorry!). The Ephesians text is good, but the 1st Thessalonians text is clearer. It actually says "Do not quench the Spirit". Thus, to some degree, the Lord allows us to resist Him.

And, as is pointed out in the book of James, sometimes we don't "have" because we don't "ask". Sometimes the reason for that is sin or selfishness, but also as he mentioned in the first chapter, sometimes it's because of doubt.

Proverbs 1:23 also says, "If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you." In NKJV, the word "heart" is rendered "spirit".

In sum, it's possible to grieve the Spirit & quench the Spirit. Ignoring His rebuke keeps Him from pouring out His Spirit on us. If we doubt, we may not receive. If we do not ask, we may not have. If we ask amiss or out of the wrong motives, we may not receive.

So is it possible to not be having a gift that He would otherwise give to us if we believed? I think the Scriptures would say it's possible. Even Christ could not do miracles & healing at times when the people did not believe.

But all things in God's timing and according to God's will. Not every gift is for every person, and not every person is given the same calling as another person. I'm called to be in Japan. I'm not saying anyone else must come be in Japan.

In sum, there are a couple questions that we can ask when confronted with a potential gift:

Is it God's will that I have it?
Is it His timing? (He can say "not yet.")

If we believe it is, then ask and wait on Him. But if we feel convicted that He's saying, "Nope, not for you, just trust Me", then we need to follow Him in whichever direction He leads, trusting that indeed He does know what's best for us and what will make us truly happy.

Pretty simple, don't you think?

The trouble comes when people force in either direction. When they force tongues on you. Or when they force no-tongues on you (that is, any form of cessationalism). Additionally, what we believe about these things will influence our thoughts and feelings about other people around us who may believe one way or the other. If someone believes in tongues-for-all but we don't, we may look down on them. If we don't believe in tongues, we may definitely feel uncomfortable if anyone speaks in tongues, and we'll end up calling them demonic. To be sure, I believe the Scriptures do not support cessationalism at all. But honest cessationalist believers will find themselves uncomfortable if the Holy Spirit manifests through believers who are not cessationalist.

Yes, I believe it's possible for honest believers to feel uncomfortable at the presence of the Holy Spirit (and it's equally possible for tongue-speaking believers to feel uncomfortable when the Holy Spirit inspires another believer to say that perhaps not everyone is meant to have tongues).

I know that to some Christians, the idea that believers can be uncomfortable with God's presence is inconceivable and sounds wrong. But there is nothing in Scripture that says it is impossible to be uncomfortable with what the Holy Spirit does in other believers. In fact, we're often uncomfortable with what He does in our lives, that is, in our situations, simply because we don't recognize it's Him. We may even pray asking Him to stop the enemy's work, not recognizing that it is Him. If this is possible with our situations, then it must also certainly be possible with beliefs and manifestations of the Spirit. Again, Scripture doesn't suggest it's impossible.

God is always breaking the boxes we put Him in. Sometimes it feels good, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we recognize what He's doing early, other times we recognize what He's doing much later. This is especially true when it's discipline or when we're hard-headed about whatever pet-doctrines we have. But this is all part of the wonderful streching process of growing in Him.
River
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the problem with most evangelicals believing is this.
They believe that the Holy Spirit comes into their lives when they are born again. They are right of course. So in believing this they cannot see that there can be two events of this nature. So they conclude there are therefore not two separate events and they are flat wrong.
Event 1. The Christian is born again and the Holy Spirit comes into the Christians life (Body and Spirit) and makes his abode there. Thatís what make him/her a Christian.
Event 2. The Holy Spirit then ìBaptizes usî (Mat 3:11 KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The Christian does not necessarily receive this ìBaptismî at birth(Born again) but is Baptized unto repentance, repentance must come first.
Event 1. Repentance and water Baptism.
Event 2. Baptism in the Holy Ghost and with fire. Thus two distinct events.
Now forget tongues for the moment fellow Bible students and I will show you the two distinct events in the Bible, now lay aside all your preconceived notions dear Christian, spend a moment in prayer and open up to Acts chapter 8 verse 1 and we will read to verse 18 ought to be sufficient.
Now at the beginning of the chapter here we find Paul roaring around and it causes the disciples to scatter out.
So our brother Philip decides to go to Samaria to preach. So he preaches and miracles follow his preaching, verse 7, but if you will notice, no Holy Spirit Baptism is present in Philips ministry, lots of miracles but no Holy Spirit ìBaptismî ìFallen onî receivedî, (Acts 8:14 KJV) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
(Acts 8:15 KJV) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(Acts 8:16 KJV) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
(Acts 8:17 KJV) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
This receiving of the Holy Ghost spoken of here is the ìBaptismî of the Holy Ghost spoken of by John the Baptist. John was the forerunner (or) foreteller.
Two distinct events have occurred here in plain separation of time and space in chapter 8.
1. Repentance unto salvation. Water Baptism. (isnít that what we teach for salvation?)
2. Baptism in (or by) the Holy Ghost.
In verse 16 we have ìFor as yet he had ìfallenî on none of them.
So we have different words used for the same event, ìFallen onî ìBaptized withî ìReceivedî all referring to a second event, throughout the book of Acts up too at least chapter 9.
The Bible does not simply and unequivocally spell it out for us in the historical content so we just have to be good detectives, but as they sayî If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it is, in all probability, a duckî now there are different kinds of ducks.
Peters evidence and Paulís evidence was that they spoke in tongues. That was their indication, their barometer if you will. I have witnessed folk receiving this ìBaptismî many times and this evidence always is present simply because we have no other way of knowing that I know of, I repeat, that I know of. Now I realize the arguments that could be argued on that last statement. But I have to rest on the Biblical evidence as put forth by Peter Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Faith is an absolute must in receiving from God. (Prov 4:7 KJV) Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
once you realize that being ìBorn againî and the receiving the Holy Spirit into your spirit/body/temple (makes his abode there) (Christ in you) and the Holy spirit ìBaptism inî ìfallen uponî ìReceivedî ìSubmerged inî are Two distinct, separate events, then you will have no problem, all will be left to do is wait prayerfully, humbly and in faith believing before the Lord. It can be in your bedroom or wherever, I donít recommend driving while doing this, pick a time when you will not be interrupted, and make up you mind to just get away somewhere and just get lost in his love, and he will give you the desires of your heart, desire this thing.
When my little adopted grand daughter from china climbs up in my lap and says ìGrandpa, I love youî, she captures my heart immediately and I would move heaven and earth to give the good things she desires.
It cost us right at 20,000 dollars to adopt her and that was a lot for us to scrape up, yet I count the price as nothing, absolutely nothing.
When my daughter returned from China, we were waiting for her to deplane at PDX, my daughter came down the ramp and laid her tiny, frail body into my arms, from that moment on she was my flesh and blood, my priceless possession, when I look at her, even though we are all Caucasian I cannot, see a Chinese girl, yes my eyes see it but my spirit cannot. I demand nothing of her, yet I will give freely to her the good things, the priceless things. Do you understand what I am saying here dearly beloved?
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe there will continue to be differences of opinion about the "second blessing", the universality of tongues, etc. In fact, while I believe that the Bible definitely teaches that a person may experience many special empowerings or fillings of the Holy Spirit throughout his life, or in preparation for ministry, etc., still he is indwelt only onceówhen he places his faith in Jesus and is sealed with the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14).

To make a second blessing normative is not biblicalóbut to know that the Holy Spirit will fill and bless you in deep ways more than once is biblical. My problem with the "second blessing" is not that I think the Holy Spirit only "fills" once. (As I said above, I believe He INDWELLS onceóbut he fills us over and over as we grow and deepen.)

Rather, my problem with it is that many people believe that a second blessing characterized by tongues and other charismatic gifts is the norm for Christ-followers who are open and believing. This expectation is what I take exception to. The Bible is clear that the Spirit is like wind, going wherever and whenever He willsóand we just can't make a formula for how a person experiences Him any more than we can create a formula for any other aspect of our experience with God.

It's the expectation that the Holy Spirit will work in certain ways that is the problem. I'm more and more convinced that God brings us more and more deeply to a place of trusting Him without any expectations except of His faithfulness and of His consistency and of His peace and deep joy. He WILL give us more than these foundationsóbut the "more" will vary among believers. They will have MUCH in commonóbut the specific blessings and the timings of the blessings will not be "formulatable".

Colleen
Honestwitness
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, your assessment of this situation is well worded and very appropriate. As one who comes from a Charismatic background, my original zeal did find expression in a desire for others to have the same experience I had. And I had scriptural grounds for my expectations. However, I had overlooked the very point you are making about the Spirit being "like the wind, going wherever and whenever He wills."

A few years ago, I was agonizing in prayer over the fact that my precious husband not only does not have the same experience of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" with the manifestation of tongues, but believes my experience is of the devil. I requested an answer to this dilemma directly from the Lord. As He promised that we will receive when we ask, He did answer my questioning heart.

Here's how He did it. Immediately into my mind came these words, "Matthew 13:11." Nothing more. Just the reference. So I went to my Bible and opened to that passage. I read,
________________________________________

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
________________________________________

I immediately knew the Lord was telling me that it was entirely up to Him whether He would ever choose to give my husband this experience or not, and that I should learn to remove my focus from the experience and replace it with a focus on Him.

Honestwitness
Agapetos
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River, thanks for your exposition of Acts 8! I think that makes the whole debate about "two events" very clear. I agree with Colleen that there is an initial indwelling, but in Scripture this "baptism" thingy was promised and received (as shown in Acts) and so it does seem to be pretty normative, although I don't think "tongues" are standard at all (even though they always occur in the Bible).

Additionally, God has full right to do whatever He wants (thank God!). Still, despite His absolute sovereignty, there is a very clear Scriptural bullhorn that says He lovingly responds to us when we ask. I would venture to say that He prefers for us to ask rather than having to hit us over the head with something. But of course, surprising us probably gives Him a kick, too. :-)

In sum, according to the Bible's promises, the Spirit's "baptism" (not to be confused with indwelling/being born of the Spirit) does seem to be normal. Although if God tells you His Holy Spirit is in you and has baptized you, then no one can tell you you have not received the Holy Spirit. It's a matter between you & God.

The disturbing part about the way the Bible seems to speak of the promised baptism of the Spirit as normative is that it is not normative for many of our Christian experiences. This makes many of us feel like we are lacking. And for those of us who strongly believe in God's sovereignty, it's incompatible because it would suggest that God waited on our asking.

Similarly in history, however, the message of the Gospel -- of Christ alone, by faith alone, by Scripture alone, by grace alone, etc. -- was suppressed for many years and not known. It took a full-blown "reformation" for these things to be restored.

Now, those things are foundational, and I don't mean to put the Spirit's baptism on the same level, because it is clear that He lives in us the moment we believe. At the same time, there is an intimacy, reality and power that the Father manifests to us in the blessing that He promised through John the Baptist and through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Is it possible that the Sovereign God might allow us to miss some of these things because our beliefs did not accomodate such a possibility?

Again, look at the Reformation. The countless blessings from knowing its even more foundational truths were desperately needed, particularly during the Dark Ages. Yes, I believe God allowed it to happen, and I likewise believe that God has allowed us to become doctrinally hardened so that we have little room for His Spirit to stretch His arms out, dance, and just fully be Himself among us.

I know this might challenge anyone who believes strongly that God is sovereign and that He doesn't wait on us. But again, Scripture and history demonstrate that in His sovereignty, He does wait on us and that we are indeed able to miss out because of many various things.

Yet the wonderful paradox and complete truth is that we have all fullness in Christ. In Him we are complete, because He is complete, and in Him we are lacking nothing. Yet while we are on earth, we do clearly have shortcomings. We are not complete. We are not healed. But from the perspective of eternity (and gazing at the face of the Son!) we are complete. God has given us peace by causing us to gaze at the completeness in His Son's face, and yet He is not unconcerned with our momentary troubles. Rather, through Christ and His Spirit, Eternity comes into our fleeting moments and blesses us. And this will continue until we see Him face to face.

*****

Quick note about the term "second blessing"...

I was reading an Andrew Murray book where he talked about the term "second blessing" and also referred to George Muller's experience of the same thing. I thought it meant the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but in reading Murray I quickly found that it was not referring to the baptism of the Spirit.

Instead Murray was talking about a common experience that many of us have when we first believe. We are excited and we pursue God, but eventually we burn out studying Scripture and trying to be good. Then we re-discover Christ and learn that everything is Him, that our life is one of rest in Him and letting Him do His stuff in us, instead of the fruit of our own zeal. That is what Murray & Muller experienced as the "second blessing". And it can easily be recognized as the same experience that people like Bob George and Mike Bickle have gone through.

I thought I'd point this out because there might be different understandings to the term "second blessing". I don't think I ever used the term before reading the Murray book, but after knowing the different understandings of the term (Murray's book is about a hundred years old), I'll be extra sure not to use the term.

*****

River! Thank you for telling us about your precious granddaughter! Recently I borrowed a National Geographic DVD from a friend which featured a preview of a few other shows. One of the shows was about the story of a family adopting a little girl from China (and why it has been a necessity), and I was moved to tears just watching that short preview. I was blessed and I prayed for them, and for the wonderful families that go to take them and make them part of their own families. And now I'm blessed to have read about your family and how you've been touched and blessed. Truly, God is wonderful. I pray for more outpouring of His love through our hearts this way more and more.
River
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Post Number: 46
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 6:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, now that we have discussed the thing, and I might add, in a most civilized and Christian manor, I will ask the hard questions.
1. Was ìBaptized with the Holy Ghost and with fireî part of Gods design?
2. What has the ones that ìReceivedî done with it? (Acts 1:8 KJV) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
3. Does our heart burn within us too bring salvation to the lost?
4. Do we sit in our churches and be blessed while those around us perish?
5. What would Jesus say to us today about the ìgreat commission and the churches of today? Would he say well done?
6. What would he say to us individually about this?
7. In a society that grows more wicked by the hour, will we finally stand up as a church and be counted? Or will we allow ourselves to be sucked into the darkness of oblivion and be partakers of their sin?
The day has already come upon is when deviant sexual behavior grows more and more bold and the mainline protestant churches consider taking homosexuals and putting them in the position of preaching, teaching, leadership, indeed some have already done so, will we hear the clarion call to arms Christian soldiers, or will we go silently into the grave and partake of their sins by saying nothing?
It is not a question of what we have, it is a question of what we do with what we have, whatever measure that may be.
I recently heard a woman in the pew behind me say ìI am tired of ìplayingî churchî and I did so want to turn to her and say îWell, quit ìplayingî church stupid and then you wonít be tired of itî but I bit down hard so as not to cause interruption.
But it does bring another question. Do we rise up on Sunday morning and go for the days ìPlayî and entertainment, come home feeling good about ourselves, feel that we have done Gods will and everything is right with the world?
Does the enemy of our soul look at our churches and say ìThey are contained within those walls, therefore they are no threat to my dominion?î
Does our prayer to go like this ìLord, bless me and my wife, my son and his wife, us four and no moreî or do we truly weep for the lost between the porch and the alter?

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