| Author | Message | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2006 |
I'm in the process of moving several states away to a location where I will know absolutely no one. I would like to find a new congregation as quickly as possible in order to establish roots in my new community. I'm leaving a non-denominational fellowship so it's not going to be a matter of transferring to anything related. In my journey out of Adventism I've visited a lot of different congregations, both denominational and non-denominational. It's like I get a flashback of PTSD or something when I see a doctrine or tradition that I don't understand or even disagree with. It's been hugely helpful to find congregations that espouse "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, charity. In all things, Jesus Christ." But unfortunately, I find there are a lot of churches out there with a list of doctrines seemingly as dogmatic as Adventism's 28 Fundamentals. Yes, I understand this will take a lot of prayer and leading of the Holy Spirit, but I'm soliciting some help and have a few questions: 1. How do you deal with doctrinal stances? Am I the only former who wants a copy of doctrinal beliefs before getting too involved? I'm still firmly in the "I don't know" category on some things such as eschatology or hell and really don't want to agree to what I can't commit to. 2. Do you just attend rather than join? I've always been one to participate fully in my church home. 3. What do you do with Adventists who say, "What's the difference between going to a new church where you don't believe everything when you could have stayed an Adventist the same way?" In my mind it's because the foundation is deceptive and rotten with a false gospel being taught. But other churches with their own legalistic pillars aren't attractive to me either. I'm feeling maybe I don't truly understand congregational rather than hierarchal church authority? 4. Anyone else find they fall between the cracks in any respect? For instance, I'm not a cessationist (there go most Baptist churches) yet I'm not Pentecostal either because they don't seem to grasp 1 Corinthians 14. Aargh.... I've been looking online at websites for churches in my new area. I'm amazed at the number of churches that practice foot washing. I thought that was an SDA thing. I know some here are PCA or EFCA but neither are in my new city. There are a lot of churches without websites so perhaps it's going to take a divine appointment with someone for direction as to where the Lord would have me. I would hugely appreciate any help from those of you with similar walks. Aliza | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 563 Registered: 7-2004  |
Aliza, what a daunting challenge you have ahead of you! I can so relate to many of your questions/concerns. I think there are a huge number of former SDA's who resolve these issues by attending instead of becoming members. In many churches, there is almost no practical difference between a member and a non-member. I'll try responding to your questions. 1. Correct doctrine, at least in several key areas, are very essential to me. Like you, we also felt an intense need to carefully scrutinize every doctrine before getting involved. I think you will find that there are plenty of churches that even though they teach a literal hell with eternal punishment, understand not everyone is settled in their mind on that, and it shouldn't be an issue. Maybe you could ask a potential church which doctrines they consider critical for you to agree with. 2. We were planning on just attending the church we eventually joined, and they allowed full participation in everything for non-members, except a couple key leadership positions. However, once we realized we felt like this was our family, we wanted to join and did so. 3. We've also struggled with the question of what's the difference between having to leave the SDA church over doctrinal differences, and yet accepting a church where you don't agree 100% with everything. Your thoughts are identical to ours - what's the foundation? Who is truly preaching the gospel and who is centered fully on Jesus? I know what you mean about "legalistic pillars" in other churches! Many of the churches we visited were far more legalistic-appearing than the grace-oriented SDA church we had left. And in our area, we found that most prominent among the Baptist churches and the non-denominational churches. Almost all the non-denoms in our area have pastors with a legalistic Baptist background, and it shows. Another problem we found is that even though the non-denoms claim in essentials unity, etc. and have a sparse list of beliefs, there seemed to be many unwritten beliefs everyone was expected to have, not to mention the ones that insist you have to sign a covenant with the church to be a member (argh!). And the pastors at the non-denoms seemed to be on a power trip because they had no one to answer to. I think it's especially critical for former SDA's to be blessed with a pastor who has the patience for dealing with questions and hyper-sensitivity. 4. I know many who fall between the cracks, and we sort of feel that way. But we probably line up with at least 98% of the doctrines taught at the church we now belong to, and that's certainly much better than lining up with less than 1% of SDA teachings! I want to emphasize the most important part of your search for a church home is the direction of the Holy Spirit. We thought as picky as we are, it would be impossible for us. But God came through and has blessed us with a wonderful church family. And just as important, I think He used our searching time to teach us things and so that we could discover what we were even looking for. There have even been a few worrisome things that have come up since we joined and we wondered if we had been mistaken about God's leading, but every time God confirms for us that this is right where He wants us at this time. Suggestions: Put together a list of things that you consider essential to find in a church home. For us, it was Jesus is central, correct understanding of grace (no legalism), no tithing. Then you might have a list of things that you would strongly prefer, but not insistent on. For us, that consisted of a smaller size church, grape juice option for communion in individual cups, strong youth program, contemporary service that wasn't too loud or rowdy. Then recognize God can certainly change your preferences and so don't stay stuck to your list (except maybe the essentials)! Praying for you. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 564 Registered: 7-2004 |
One other thing that was on our preferences list, was no foot-washing! While there is probably nothing wrong with that practice, it seems legalistic to have it and reminds me too much of my SDA background. Besides, why is it only mentioned in one Gospel? Why in the several instances where the New Testament talks about celebrating the Lord's Supper daily, there is never any mention of foot-washing? To me, it only was an object lesson about humbly serving one another which, as Christians, should happen in our daily lives. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 199 Registered: 4-2006  |
One advice, find a place with Christians that are in love with Jesus. Also remember it is all about being in the true Church, Jesus Christ, in Christ, serving him and not some organization. Your not the only one who would like to see the doctrines before signing in. It would probably be a good idea to attend, have a look, and then decide to join. God, please lead Aliza to where you would like her to be. Where she can prosper with other true Christians, who loves you. Where she can help and serve you. Guide and comfort her in all of this, Amen. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 237 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi Aliza, Having a good church home is very important. Sometimes when you are looking for non-denominational church it is difficult to know what their beliefs are. I don't think you have to be locked into one church. You may need to visit several for awhile to get a true picture of what the beliefs and practices are. When we moved to an area several years ago we did not know which church (non-denominational) we were going to go to. We attended so many and began to be disillusioned. After searching and searching we found one an hour away! It was well worth the drive, but we were not able to be involved as we would have liked due to distance. If you like the church you are in now I would talk with the pastor. Sometimes the non-denominational churches are loosely group into church fellowships. Your pastor may be able to recommend a church similiar to yours in the area you are moving to. As for the questions: 1. The important doctrines should be the same to me. Many places have websites where they state their doctrinal beliefs. The purpose and vision of the church are very important to me in determining if it is the right church. 2. I'm not into the joining/becoming a member thing. But if membership classes are required to become involved in the church then I would do it. 3. It would be very difficult to find a church where you agree 100%. Even as a believing Adventist I didn't agree 100%. When questioning Adventism the % dropped to like 2% so it was obvious that was not the place for me. I think you should find a church that matches close to 100%, but to me if a church is at the 80-90% mark and I agree with their mission and purpose then that is sufficient. Finding a church where I agree with the mission and purpose of a church has been more difficult than the doctrinal points. 4. I'm not a cessationalist or a Pentecostal either. Yet, there are many great churches out there that fit with that description. The church we are in now does fit with that. My husband knows alot of the fellowships of non-denominational churches and maybe could recommend one to you. If you want him to do that just ask Richard for my email address. | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2006 |
Raven, you certainly understand where I'm coming from! Thanks so much for your thoughtful ideas. I know you're in the midwest and that's where I'm heading. Is the footwashing thing big in the midwest or something? I'm runing into smaller denominations that seem to do that--ones I'd never heard of before. And yes, I've got a list of ideas--preferences, styles, non-negotiables etc and just want to make sure I'm not being too unbending about things. Actually, I'm down to four questions that helps me grasp where a church is doctrinally: 1) where do you stand on the scale between Calvinism and Armenianism? 2) Would you describe the church belief system as more dispensationalist, Covenant theology or New Covenant theology? 3) Does the church take a stand on eschatology? 4) What is your position about spiritual gifts still being operational? I've been afraid that maybe I'm being way too picky so thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one. Aliza | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2006 |
Mwh, thanks for your prayer. Yes, I don't even need to get to the doctrinal questions if the church isn't founded on grace and a passion for Jesus Christ! | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2006 |
U2, thanks for your advice. You're right--the vision and purpose are highly critical features. My current church is passionate for bringing people to Jesus and teaching them to then become difference makers in their individual settings. It is so awesome to have people passionate about Jesus rather than a denomination! I'll ask for your e-mail address as I can use any help you might provide for connections. I've e-mailed my pastor for ideas but don't believe they have connections in the Midwest but I could be wrong. Aliza | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2006 |
Aliza, It probably will boil down to what you are comfortable with, not whether its 100% to your liking. You might find one by visiting around and when you think you have found it attend regularly for a month or even two, go to services often, if they try to force you into a commitment, run, then after a while, ask yourself, would I be comfortable inviting some one here? Would you invite someone in need of salvation there? Of course doctrinal matters, matter, but balance matters also. Salvation by grace really, really matters. Churches even within denominations have their upsides and downsides. If you have children, does it meet the needs of children? I am not 100% sure about tithing and my church believes in it yet I resolved the issue by logic, I figured 10% is a reasonable number and so I tithe that amount as a minimum and yet try not to be stingy with offerings for logic tells me it cost money to run a church so it is not a matter of whether I believe tithing to be a correct Bible interpretation, itís a matter of having a place to meet and worship and learn together. As for myself, I donít officially join them, their name rolls/list mean nothing to me, its Jesus that matters. I do believe it is Gods will that we support his work. This may not be a help, certainly not advice. May God bless you in your seeking. These thought are meant for up building, not confusion. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4809 Registered: 12-2003  |
Aliza, Raven pretty much summed up our own experience and needs as we looked for a church, too. I'd just like to add a couple of observations. First, for us it is critical that the sermons are expository Bible teaching. If a pastor honors Jesus and His Word and carefully teaches it line by line, some of the issues like Calvinism and Arminianism may not even "show up" as troublesome. If the Bible is preached, you will be taught about God's absolute soveriegnty as well as your own responsibility to believe and respond to Jesus. Topical sermons can also be good, if they're rooted in Scripture, but for us that Bible teaching is really crucial. While our pastor is not a cessationist, he is conservativeóprobably more than we areóconcerning manifestations of spiritual gifts. Yet he does not speak against the exercise of gifts nor twist the passages of Scripture where God promieses His people the gifts of the Spirit. In other words, as I mentioned above, it the pastor is committed to teaching the word of God honestly and responsibly, some of those personal views are not "out there", and there's room for plenty of variance within the congregation. BTW, our worship services are wonderful: reverent, moving, and also alive. The songs are carefully chosen to express Biblical truths about God and salvation, etc. Our pastor himself is often one of the first to raise his hand when singingóand he's most definitely a more reserved person than average! Yes, a doctrinal statement was really important to us, but we joined without agreeing with eternal hell. Our pastor told us that because of our Adventist background, our resesrvation about that doctrine was understandable and did not suggest a lack of willingness to accept God's wrath and justice as such a reservation might suggest if someone had become a Christian from a background of total unbelief. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2174 Registered: 3-2005 |
Aliza, I second what Raven said, and what Colleen said about the importance of expository preaching, even though I personally could not attend an Arminian church based on my understanding of the Bible, but there are still many fine Christians in Arminian churches, and we were blessed for many years in an Arminian church. I do have to say that I did attend a church that had very good expository teaching which was non-denominational, but after many years I started to see some of the same similarities in some basic beliefs that SDAs had--especially on the teachings of grace. When I found out they did not believe in eternal security I knew I had to leave(because logically our salvation would depend on our works or faithfulness.) Even though my wife and I received tremendous blessing overall, we were not comfortable staying. After all these years Marti and I have never been more contented than where we are now at a PCA church. I don't agree with some of the points of Covenant theology. But the basic underlying theme there is that we are saved 100% by grace, and nothing of ourselves and we are eternally secure in that sovereign grace. But I also appreciate the emphasis on the Lordship of Christ and the importance of obedience. It is amazing how the teaching on obedience comes alive when it is taught in the context of the absolute security of the believer--no Investigative Judgment! There is NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1-4). I believe the Holy Spirit will lead us to where he wants us to fellowship. So often today choices are made on the basis of who has the best rock music or other entertainment. There are many churches out there competing on this very basis--at least this is true in Orange County California. Stan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 567 Registered: 7-2004 |
Aliza, no I haven't seen foot-washing being big in the midwest. There are two or three churches I can think of who do it and I was very surprised to discover anyone outside the SDA church doing it. Once I found out that actually does happen in some non-SDA churches, that's when I made that part of my criteria as well, that any church we became a part of would not do that. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 595 Registered: 7-2004  |
I have heard poor expository preaching. And I have heard good Bible-centered topical preaching. I prefer expository sermons, but I think that the content of the sermon is more important than the style used to present that content. I would ask whether Christ and Him crucified is consistently presented in the message--whether topical or expository. Stan, we found some of the salvational uncertainty as well in some of the non-denominationals that we attended. That is an area that is non-negotiable for me doctrinally. But we also found a Methodist (certainly more Arminian in their views) church that I thought had excellent, grace-centered, Jesus-focused sermons. Our decision to start looking again after 6 months at that church was not based on the teachings of the pastors. I would highly recommend discussing ANY of your doctrinal concerns with the pastor. A gentle, understanding pastor can be very healing. That has been the biggest blessing of the church where we have ended up. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4814 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good points, Rick. I agree that the content of the sermon is more important than the style. Jesus and the cross must be the center of the sermon. I also agree that if you have questions, talk with the pastor. Our pastor's willingness to explain/discuss doctrinal questions was one of the most profound blessings we found at our church, especially during the first couple of years. Colleen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2006 |
Aliza, Everyone here has made great comments and suggestions. Please allow me to add my 2 cents worth. Doctrine is very important to me, but not in every minute area. There is nothing wrong with asking for a doctrinal statement, especially after we had the 28! You definitely want to know what you are getting into! :-) As I said on another thread, at this point in time I'm not sure I would ever join another church. That does not stop me from being involved, however. At the Calvary Chapel I attended for a few years, I was very active in a small group of women and it was a wonderful blessing for me. I, like most if not every other, don't have to agree 100%, but I do have to agree on the foundation the church is built on. If the focus of the church is not all about God, then it's not for me. As Raven said, the strongest requirement for choosing a church is being led by the Holy Spirit. Pray for God to place you where He wants you to be. He will not fail to do so! It has been interesting for me as a former SDA married to a "somewhat more or less" fundamentalist Baptist. My husband would like to be in a Baptist church, even though many times he has said it's not a requirement. I cringe at most denominations, and so in the year and a half since we have been married, there has been a struggle at times to find a church that we can both feel comfortable in. I tended towards the more contemporary services, while my husband wanted more traditional. We found a commonality in the PCA church. My husband does not realize (yet) how different they are from Baptist churches, and I'm going to allow the Holy Spirit to show him what he needs to know. I have much more of a Calvinistic outlook than he does. I just know that we both feel the Holy Spirit powerfully there, and the sermons are expository and SO grace-filled! We had made an agreement to pick a church and to go for a minimum of 4 weeks, Sunday, Wednesday, and anything that we thought would give us a "flavor" of how the church was. Now, lest you think we were looking for entertainment, we were not. My husband was looking for a community of Christ-followers, and I was looking for the preaching of grace! We believe we have found both and are very happy worshipping God there. God will lead you as you hear in your spirit His voice. I am confident of that fact. May the Lord bless you richly in your search for a new spiritual community! Susan | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thank you all for your wise words of wisdom. I've identified about six churches as places to start. I'll remain open to getting recommendations from those I meet once I'm in town next week as well since obviously not all churches have websites. You are so right about expository preaching with the emphasis upon grace. That will definitely be my focus. From there, it will be interesting to see how the Holy Spirit directs. Aliza | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2006 |
This might be off topic, and I do not want to in any way offend those here who understand things differently than I do, because this difference is not a crucial one. I was listening to the radio one Sunday afternoon/evening after church and doing my cooking for the following week. Various preachers were on, and as I listened over the hours, I had a "light bulb" moment. I called to my husband and I said I've finally figured out why I can never be in a fundamentalist church. I hear two great differences in the preaching... in the one, I hear "This is what God wants you to do (and the implication, not just on the radio but in church and in interaction) and if you don't then you are lost/in danger of hellfire/not a true Christian, etc. In the other, I hear the word of the Lord preached, and the preacher allows the Holy Spirit to do His "job" with us...to convict us where we are out of God's will. I said, I think that's why I bristle so much at fundamentalism...it reminds me so much of Ellen White! For me, that's another criteria in choosing a church...who is my convicting agent? Susan | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 159 Registered: 12-2004 |
After I had decided to leave and not try to change S.D.A. from the inside, I was talking with a non-SDA friend about finding a church after Adventism. He pointed out to me that church was where we came to corporately worship and jointly reach out to the un-saved world. His advice to me was to find a church where my talents could be used or were needed. So my qualifications for a new church would be: 1. Expositional teaching from the pulpit. 2. My talents could be used or are needed. 3. Statement of Doctrine can be established and supported clearly by scripture. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 568 Registered: 7-2004 |
Awesome insight, Susans -- I agree! | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 247 Registered: 11-2004 |
Susan, I totally agree with you about the convicting agent. I would not be "at home" in a church where the preaching is meant to convict of sins or where you are made to feel like you have to repent every little thing or come to the alter often to be right with God. |
