| Author | Message | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2006 |
Susans: I would like to pull a few lines from your last post. They JUMPED OUT at me. . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Then I came to understand and to thank the Lord because I needed to be part of the SDA church for all those years because of the valuable lessons that I learned. The most important lesson was that I am totally sinful, without hope and dead in my sins. Along with this was the second most important lesson I learned from Adventism was that no matter how much I was told I had to, no matter how hard I tried, no matter how self-righteous I thought I was when I thought I kept the law, no matter how condemned and despairing I felt when I failed once again in keeping the commandments, that it can't be done. I am not sure I could have ever learned that so deeply as I did because of being an Adventist. I believe living as an Adventist under the condemnation of the law has helped me to be more acutely aware and thankful for the gift of my Saviour. I am utterly lost without Him! I know I tend towards self-righteousness, and God has shown me that all my righteousness is as a filthy rag." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your experience touched me as I could identify with much of what you wrote. But the lines I quoted above were particularly meaningful to me. For me, Adventism and Ellen did their work and did them well. They got me thoroughly LOST! As I mentioned on another thread, I wanted to be a pastor. I went to PUC for one quarter with that goal in mind. But after an assignment to go through Ellen's writings and make a list of what a pastor was supposed to be, I got so discouraged I dropped out. I knew I could not measure up My constant attempts to be "good enough" drove me almost crazy. As I read the life of Martin Luther I find the same thing. He was under such a burden of fear and condemnation that he felt he could never be saved. But that is what the true gospel does. The gospelís work is first and foremost to get us thoroughly lost. Many people try to short circuit this process and try to go straight for the joy. But that is not how the gospel works. As you say in your post, you appreciate being saved all the more because you had been so utterly lost. As A. W. Tozer so wonderfully says, (this is a paraphrase since I can't find the book at the moment). Today we have churches which allow people to accept Jesus without a single jolt to the fallen Ademic nature. People become Christians without ever finding out how lost they really are. (The Pursuit of God by Tozer) When I read that line, I said to myself, "The Adventist Church did a good job of getting me lost." I knew at the age of 6 that I was lost. As the song Amazing Grace puts it. ìTwas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved." Without first knowing how lost I really am, I cannot be saved. Now here is the part I will probably get a lot of flack over. But this is my story, not someone elseís. The moment this helpless, pitiful sinner really began to seek God and cry out to Him, like the blind man along the side of the road - the moment I saw Jesus turn and come to me and wash away my sins and give me the robe of His righteousness - the moment I felt the burden of my sins lift off by pitiful back - the moment I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could never be good enough but that Jesus had done it for me and that His righteousness stood in my place and the I could rejoice because He does the saving, not me - the moment I realized all of that, I found the heavy burden the Adventist Church and the gospel and the Bible and Ellen had placed on my back was gone. Later I went through that list of what a pastor is supposed to be and amazingly I found it was totally transformed. I no longer saw a list of impossible weight. Instead I saw a list of promises of what God would do in my life as I gloried in His goodness and grace. All the texts that terrorized me by saying ìbe ye therefore PERFECTî in the Bible and in Ellen White's writings became promises of victory in Jesus. It was as if I had never read the Bible or Ellen before. For example, in the Bible we are told to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling". I did plenty of fear and trembling! I wondered why the Bible would say such a thing. People kept telling me I was supposed to trust Jesus for my salvation? But here is a text that says I am supposed to WORK OUT MY OWN SALVATION. Well I spent many years trying to do that very thing and met with total failure. So I finally gave up on God. After my conversion, I went back and read that verse and discovered there was more to it. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE. Suddenly a text that had condemned me to death now became a source of life and hope. And that is how the gospel is supposed to work. It is supposed to kill you and then raise you to new life, just as Jesus was killed and was raised to life. People love to quote Jesus' words, "My burden is easy, my yoke is light" but we cannot ever find that easy burden and light yoke if we have not found the text that says, ìWhosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.î Mark 8:34 Notice it does not say, "take up JESUS' cross and follow...". it is saying, "Take up his cross (my cross, your cross) and follow..." That is what the gospel does. It tells me to take up MY cross (an instrument of torture and death) and then it stacks all my sins on my cross and then commands me to carry that cross and at the same time be a loving, cheerful, joyous, happy Christian. When I finally realized how heavy and impossible that is, I cried out in agony to Jesus. 1. The gospel teaches that death always precedes resurrection. 2. And death and resurrection always precede the light yoke and the easy burden. 3. To get that backwards is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Dare I say the next line? Please donít throw me off the forum for this. But I found the gospel in the Bible and (perhaps Iím not reading her right) but I find the gospel in the writings of Ellen White. The Bible and Ellen made my burden so heavy I nearly went insane. But when I found Jesus, the same words that killed me, now became promises of hope and courage and pointed me to Jesus as being my only help. I donít know about the I.J. I donít know about a lot of things. But this one thing I do know. He who started a good work in me will complete it as I look to Jesus the author and finisher of my faith. I am sorry if my story contradicts some people's theology but it is my story and that is how God has led me. WalkOnWater A great sinner, an even greater God! | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2006 |
Walk, I appreciate your response and God indeed does lead us in different ways. I have heard people tell me that they find the gospel in the writings of Ellen White. In my own, and please let me stress my OWN experience, there are snippets of the gospel interspersed among Ellen's writings. I cannot say for certainty, because you have not stated (and I wish you would or if I have missed it please correct me) that your view of Ellen White is that she was a woman inspired by God and was the Lord's messenger to the remnant people. My view of Ellen White is that she is a false prophet. That she deceitfully copied other's writings and passed them off as "I was shown". Her writings are also full of contradictions and outright heresies. I believe it's what you read, and more importantly, what you ignore in her writings in order to make sense of them, that determine how you feel about her. I read almost everything she ever wrote and I followed the "historical SDA" which certainly does NOT preach the gospel!! Until I accepted this, I was totally lost in the Adventist church. I agree with you, Adventism and Ellen White do a thorough job of getting a person lost. And, in the great majority of cases (IMHO) of keeping them lost. They don't know the true gospel because they have placed their faith in God's messenger to provide further enlightenment. Adventism teaches that their FOUNDATIONAL doctrines are the true gospel. I disagree. And their foundational doctrines were endorsed by Ellen White. And so, for me, it was impossible to remain in the Adventist church. I was in danger of being like one of the Galatians and going back to where I was before. This has likely made little sense. I said I'm not a theologian nor a great debater. I only know this, that Jesus is my Saviour, not my example, without one spot of sin, not possessing a fallen nature, who lived a perfect life for ME, went to the cross for me, died and was raised to life, completed my atonement at the Cross when He said It is finished! Has chosen me from the foundation of the world, made me alive when I was dead, and will keep me until the day I am glorified as He is glorified. To me, that is the gospel, the good news of what Christ has done! The gospel did not kill me, the law killed me. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ my Lord. Susan | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2006 |
I wanted to also add about being lost in the SDA church that if a pastor DOES preach the gospel sans Ellen, then he cannot preach and promote the doctrines of the SDA church. At least not entirely. I attend SDA churches every so often because of my best friend. My husband won't set foot in one. The last time I did the pastor was preaching on the sanctuary. I remember thinking...what is this watered down version? You must not believe in the sanctuary doctrine or you would not be so vague. However, there were a couple of references to Ellen White. If an Adventist went home and studied the sanctuary doctrine to see what Mrs. White had to say on it, they would find it's the foundational pillar of the church. They would also find the incompleteness of the atonement on the cross, the investigation and possible loss of salvation of those who placed their trust in Jesus, and Satan as the ultimate sin-bearer. Is this the gospel? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4820 Registered: 12-2003  |
I understand what you're saying, Walk, but I also see this situation of Adventism the way Susan explains it. I believe that God uses WHATEVER circumstances or venues are around us to reveal Himself to us. Without doubt, God has used the Adventist church to bring people to a knowledge of Jesus. My grandmother was such a person. But we need to remember that the place that we find Jesus does not equal Truth. People have even met Jesus by reading about Him in the Koran and praying to know Him. God continues to reveal truth to us after we catch a glimpse of Jesus. As Susan says above, Ellen has copied plenty of Christian writers who say enough about Jesus that people can become open to meeting Him. Just as a Muslim can be saved in his or her sins, meeting Jesus through the writings of a false peophet, so an Adventist or a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness, etc., can meet Jesusóbut God doesn't leave us in our sins and deception. He continues to ask us to let go of the falsehood and bondage and false doctrines that stand in the way of becoming rooted deeply in Jesus and growing and becoming established in faith. The problem with Adventism and Ellen White in particular is that the true Biblical gospel is not taught. The truth of our spiritual death is not clearly taught because Adventism teaches that the human spirit is merely breathónot a sentient part of ourselves separate from our minds that can know God. This fallacy similarly clouds the nature of Christ, making His sinlessness primarily a matter of choosing not to sin instead of being primarily spiritual life inherent in Him through the Holy Spirit's conception of Him. Jesus' spiritual life makes Him not our example but our Substitute. His life and His death are substitutes for ours. Adventism misrepresents the new birth and the work of the Spirit in us. The Holy Spirit does not enable us to keep the lawóHe brings our spirits to life so we can literally know God in a way quite different from intellectual knowledge. He gives us Life and the ability to choose to submit. We don't have to struggle with sin any longeróinstead, we deal with God. Our temptations becomes issues of submission rather than of will power. Ellen White makes much of Satanóthere is no great controversy. There is no cosmic "accusation" against God which we and Jesus must answer. Jesus did not have to plead with the Father to become incarnate and die on the cross. Satan never thought he could cause Jesus to failóPeter tells us the demons believe and tremble. Satan truly knew Who Jesus was when He was on earth, and Satan has never supposed He could usurp Him. Ellen says that the cross was an illustration of God's love and Satan's hatred for God. NO! The cross was entirely of God. Jesus' becoming sin, enduring the wrath of separation from God, of suffering both physically and spiritually beyond descriptionóeverything about the cross was God's doing and choice. Of course the cross shows the the violence of sinóbut that illustration was not the purpose of the cross. The cross was not to demonstrate ANYTHING about Satan. It was entirely about God's own sacrifice, love, suffering, authority, responsibility, headship, sovereignty, and grace. Sin is bigger than Satan. Ellen would have us believe that Satan is responsible for evil. Obviously Satan mediated evil in Eden, and we suffer because of his deception. But we do Satan quite a favor by giving him credit for our fall. Satan is not to blame for our depravity. We are held individually responsible for that. Punishing Satan for our sin would make him responsible for it and would mean he had the authority and "power" to bear that responsibility. But no. Jesus Himself takes that responsibility. He "owns" us and takes into Himself all our sin, depravity, and deathóand He suffers infinitely for our sin. Satan will be punished for his own sinóbut he will never bear in any fraction a trace of our sin's price. Jesus bears ALL our sin and shame and punishment. Jesus is our scapegoat and our sacrificial Lamb. I'm preaching to the choir, I knowóbut Ellen is not a true prophet of God. She denigrates Jesus' authority, power, and total headship over us. As long as we honor her in any capacity, we are spiritually and emotionally linked to a false gospelóeven if we have some understanding of Jesus. I believe most of us here who have taken the risk of jettisoning Ellen and Adventist doctrines will all agree: the freedom of embracing Jesus ALONE is completely different from living as an Adventistóeven as a praying, "gospel-centered" Adventist. The two are completely different, and that difference is not knowable until one takes the risk of letting go of EVERYTHING except Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2006 |
Colleen, Even the choir is thrilled when the gospel is preached in all it's power, when Jesus is lifted up to His rightful place, and the glory of God is seen. Thank you so much for your post. Susan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1558 Registered: 10-2004  |
Walk, I do not believe that EGW even shows a person that they are lost. She does not teach that we are completely, utterly, hopelessly lost and can contribute nothing to our salvation. In fact, she says that if we let God give us some assistance we can work our way to perfection/salvation/heaven. I can see though, how you can believe that EGW teaches the gospel--since what you have outlined above is a false gospel. We are NOT saved by God working in our lives. We are NOT saved by cooperating with God or by "walking the walk of faith," or by meeting requirements through the power of the imparted righteousness of Christ. None of that can contribute one iota to our salvation (past, present, or future). We are saved only and completely by Jesus Christ's complete atonement and finished work on the Cross for our sins! If we trust in anything else to save us, we are trusting in a false gospel which is only able to condemn us to an eternal hell, and which has no power to save us. Jeremy | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 248 Registered: 11-2004 |
Colleen said "I believe most of us here who have taken the risk of jettisoning Ellen and Adventist doctrines will all agree: the freedom of embracing Jesus ALONE is completely different from living as an Adventistóeven as a praying, "gospel-centered" Adventist. The two are completely different, and that difference is not knowable until one takes the risk of letting go of EVERYTHING except Jesus." I totally agree Colleen. It is totally different. I would have been considered a "praying, gospel centered Adventist", and found the gospel apart from Adventism is quite different! Coming to terms with the fact that my salvation had nothing to do with my works was a HUGE leap from Adventism. I realize many SDAs will say that the Sabbath and salvation are not connected, but in the same sentence they say that if you love God you will keep the Sabbath which is a back door right back to works-based salvation. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2006 |
I keep hearing people saying that "my salvation has nothing to do with my works". As I see it, that can be a true or a false statement. That could be like saying, "My marraige has nothing to do with love, or sex, or partnership, or responsibility. While it is true that love and sex and partnership and responsibility do not make a marriage. A marriage automatically creates a relationship in which love, sex, partnership and responsibility all have there place. If I agree to support a woman financially for the rest of her life, I have not created a marriage. But if I marry that woman, my love for her will automatically make me want to support her. In like manner, doing the "works" of a Child of God does not make that person a Child of God. But when someone becomes a Child of God a relationship is created in which "works" of righteousness appear and take there proper place. When Saul became Paul, there was a total transformation in his ìworksî. If, after his conversion, he had continued to persecute and kill Christians, I think we would be justified in seriously doubting his conversion. So saying my "works" do not produce salvation, is true. But to say my salvation will not create a relationship, which begins to produce "works" of righteousness, is false. At least thatís how I see it from this side of the pond. (grin) WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen: I am wodering where you got your theology. Is it the theology of some church or is it what you have come up with in your own study? I must admit that in all my study I have never seen or heard of a theology quite like yours. WalkOnWater | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 308 Registered: 6-2005 |
Robby, Great to see you on the forum again! Can't wait to hear your story. Welcome Susan, glad you are here. I posted more to you on another thread. Timmy, I finally read your wife's story, and you are right. I identified with so much of it! Especially the part when you attended both an Adventist and a Christian church for a period of time and contrasted the two. Welcome Walk, The theology Colleen posted above describes much of what I have "seen" in the BIBLE since leaving the adventist church officially (Six months ago now!). Keep asking questions, you will find it is okay to ask here. God will honor those who ask with a desire for His truth. Amen Colleen and U2, the veil was not totally removed from my eyes, until I totally and officially left the adventist chuch and trusted in Jesus ALONE to save me. Layers are still peeling off... Lori | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 83 Registered: 8-2006  |
I was wodering something too. Walk said, "I find the gospel in the writings of Ellen White." 1. Ellen White said when we vote we become "partakers with them of the sins which they commit while in office." How does this compute with the Gospel? 2. Ellen White says her health massage is the 'right hand of the gospel,' and if we can't answer questions about our health we "stand condemned before God." How does this compute with the gospel? 3. Ellen White says God deceived people in 1844, after the fact he removed his hand from their mistake so they could see where they went wrong. Where does the Bible show that God or Jesus deceives to make a point? How is this in harmony with the gospel? 4. Ellen White said "'I saw the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, coffee." How is this in harmony with the Gospel? 5. Ellen White said, "I have been shown that the true followers of Jesus will discard picnics, donations, shows, and other gatherings for pleasure" How about this??? 6. Ellen White said, "Those who accept the Savior, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved." Gospel??? 7. EGW said "There are many who are losing their souls in this age of the world, by becoming absorbed in the thoughts of marriage, and in the marriage relation itself." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Sep. 25, 1888) Gospel??? 8. EGW said, "Christ is our example. Do you imitate the great Exemplar? Christ often wept but never was known to laugh. I do not say it is a sin to laugh on any occasion. But we cannot go astray if we imitate the divine, unerring Pattern." (Manuscript Releases Vol. 6, pp. 90-91) 9. EGW said, ""The Colored People should not urge that they be placed on an equality with White People." Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, Paragraph 3. Gospel??? With all due repect walk, I would have to disagree. Tim | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 477 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, Walk, you may not realize it but you've really opened up Pandora's box! Instead of backing the theogical dumptruck up and unloading a huge amount of stuff, consider a couple of things: 1. Your analogy of marriage is flawed. Yes, in certain contexts the Bible does use the analogy of marriage. But, not for the purpose or issue that you are asking about. A marriage is a covenant between two people. The covenant at Sinai in which the Law of Moses was handed down, was that type of covenant. God and the Jews made a covenant and sealed it with the blood of animal sacrifices. (See Heb. 9:18-24). There is a new covenant now, that is NOT between God and man. It is between and by God alone. One part of the Trinity came, took human form, and died as a substitute for us. Human obedience is not the issue. We can never obey and be in harmony with the will of God UNLESS we have become believers. Even as believers, our obedience counts for nothing. Under the New Covenant, we are beneficiaries of what Christ did. 2. Take a look at the first letter to the Corinthians. The folks in this church were doing some really awful stuff that would be hard to reconcile with Christian behavior. And yet, if you read 1 Cor. 1:1-9, refers to them as 'the church of God', 'the holy people of Jesus', 'saints', 'witness to Christ'...etc. Take some time and ask yourself how it is possible to have this type of behavior, and still have these folks being called 'Christians' and 'Saints'. Bill | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 252 Registered: 11-2004 |
Walkonwater said "That could be like saying, "My marraige has nothing to do with love, or sex, or partnership, or responsibility." I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see marriage as a comparison with salvation. I guess it comes down to what you believe happens when you are saved. If you believe it is a commitment between man and God I can see how you could come up with a marriage analogy. But if you see it as being spiritually reborn then I do not see a comparison. My spirit was dead until I accepted Jesus'. He took my place and made me alive. My body was already alive, but my spirit was born again. John 3:3-8 says "3 Jesus answered and said to him, ìMost assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.î 4 Nicodemus said to Him, ìHow can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his motherís womb and be born?î 5 Jesus answered, ìMost assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ëYou must be born again.í 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.î" When I was born as a newborn baby I was born of water, but when I accepted Jesus my spirit was born again. 2 Corinthians 5 says "14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christís behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." I have become a new creation. The old sin nature has gone and have become a partaker in the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4). The Bible says that our righteousness is like dirty rags. (Isaiah 64:6) If I remember right the exact meaning of dirty rags is refering to dirty menstual rags. By saying that it is about a relationship and things are expected in a relationship you are actually saying that your works are helping to save you or to keep yourself saved. Jesus is the only way to salvation. When I am born again my spirit has been reborn. The old has gone and the new has come. There are alot of good things a Christian can do, but none of these things can save me or keep me saved. If I continue to sin the Holy Spirit will convict me of sin and as a Christian I should be renewing my mind about what Jesus did for me and how he has made me righteous. Then I should start acting like the righteous person I already am. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4823 Registered: 12-2003 |
Walk, It is a fact that those who are born again are changed, and their behavior changes. But this phenomenon is not at all what most of us understood it to be when Adventists. The way Adventists explain this sounds OK if one doesn't really know Adventism, but in reality what Adventists mean when they say they will "want to obey and honor God" is that they need to demonstrate law-keeping in order to achieve sanctification. In other words, the "new, updated" version of Adventism says that people are saved by grace alone and works have nothing to do with the process, BUT they then explain that a "saved" person will demonstrate that fact with law-keepingóincluding and perhaps espcially Sabbath-keeping. If a person is not working out his sanctification by obedience to the law, he will still be lost. Now, I realize they won't usually say this so openly, especially to the public, but this is what they mean. They have learned they can't get away with saying works play any part in salvation. Instead, they are now teaching that sanctification is a matter of worksóand one can be lost by failing to properly demonstrate willing obedience. I have heard Adventist pastors say that people are saved by Jesus' death, but they can be lost by choosing not to obey. If one cannot be saved by works, he cannot be lost by works, either. Being saved or lost is entirely about JESUS. Being sanctified is also entirely about JESUS (Phil 1:6). Yes, we behave differently when the Holy Spirit lives in usóbut the difference is not that we have supernatural power to "overcome". It is literally that we have the power of God Himself making us different. He gives us true freedom to choose. When we are born again, for the first time we have the possibility of submitting our temptations to God instead of struggling with them ourselves. Walk, I'd like to suggest something I suggest to people frequently: for one month, put away ALL Ellen and other commentaries and read the Bible only. Read the book of Galatians every day for one month, praying for God to teach you what it actually says. U2, your last paragraph is such a good summation of what it means to live as a Christ-follower. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 418 Registered: 10-2002  |
Kind of a piggyback on what Colleen said... I've often thought of the Adventist approach to "works" after being born again like this: It's like going onto steps number 2, 3, 4 and 5 but not truly understanding step #1. We thought we knew what behavior would "look like" after being born again, so we kind of speed past #1. Historically the focus in Adventism has been on works, so this makes things all the more difficult & confusing. While there are certain things that "a born-again Christian will not do," if we're approaching the Christian life this way, then we've missed the point. It reminds me of the SDA quarterly some months ago on the Holy Spirit. Much of the discussion was like this, "If we are filled with the Holy Spirit, then we will be doing this and this and act like this and this." It approaches things in reverse. Instead of waiting on the Lord and asking Him to fill you with His Spirit and let you know He lives in you, we skip past that vital step #1 and try to do the right things -- by which we think we'll prove that we're filled & saved. In Adventism we truly needed to understand that Christ has saved us by what He alone has done, and that we can rest in His righteousness and not our own. Having the Old Covenant Law ever before us kept us from truly entering that rest --- that Sabbatismos, that Sabbath-rest in Jesus. That is step #1. The "works" are things that yes, will be moral, but will not always look the same. And in fact, our focus isn't on the works at all, but rather on the One who by His work has saved us. We joyfully enter these things after salvation. The great verse which continually surprises me about the Christian life: "And find out what pleases the Lord." (Ephesians 5:10) God wants us to enter a relationship, not a club with rules posted on the side. He wants us to enter a relationship of listening, waiting, walking and learning with Him where He will show us the way before us that He's called us to walk. We know we are pleasing to Him because of what His Son has done for us, not because of how well we keep the Old Covenant's rules. We know we are born again of His Spirit because we have believed His word -- that we are saved by faith, not by works. We know we belong to Him because of His "deposit" or "guarantee" -- His Spirit has sealed us for the day of redemption. And beyond these, if we want further evidence, He says we may ask ourselves a simple question: Do we love? Do we have agape for one another? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4827 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good explanation, Ramone. Thank you! Colleen | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2006 |
Rightly or wrongly, I have been preaching that when Jesus died on the cross he took all the sins of the world upon Himself, past present and future. In essence, Jesus death and resurrection saved ALL mankind. This is the good news of the gospel. Jesus saved ALL MANKIND totally independant of anything we have done or ever did. However, if Christ saved all, then why are all not saved? Because there is a part we play in the process. We have to ACCEPT the salvation Jesus bought for us. ACCEPTING is something we do. ACCEPTING is a response from us. So there is something we can do for our salvation. We can ACCEPT it. Accepting it is not meritorious but it is something we must do if we want to be saved. Another thing we can do for our salvation is to "search/seek for Him". ìYou will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart.î Again, searching/seeking is not meritorious but it is something I can and must do. I can seek Him. Another thing we can do is to put ourselves in places where we are likely to hear God's voice such as Bible study and prayer. Again, Bible study and prayer do not save a person but they are things one can do in the process of seeking. Obviously the Adventist Church has had a struggle with getting this right. The whole message of the gospel is that for mankind, "done" must always precede "do". What Jesus has ìdoneî makes it possible for me to ìdoî the seeking after Him and makes it possible for me to accept what He has ìdoneî. God actually built this principle into the creation of the world. In creation, God worked (ìdoî) and then rested (ìdoneî). Because Godís creation was ìdoî then ìdoneî it meant that Manís first day was a rest day (ìdoneî) so he could then go and ìdoî. Right at the start of the Bible we have that principle established. Man rests in what God has ìdoneî and then man's work (ìdoî) flows from that place of rest. In other words, we rest in what has been "done" and then our "doing" comes from that place of resting in Him. We see the same principle written not just into the weekly cycle but also into the daily cycle. The Bible says the "evening and the morning were the first day". But our modern world has that all mixed up. It says our "doing" starts in the morning and then we rest when we are "done". God says the day starts in the evening. What happens in the evening? We go to bed and rest and then in the morning we go and work. That is why I believe the Bible says the evening and the morning constituted a day. God is trying to show us that our ìdoingî must always be proceeded by resting. To work and then rest is what God does. To rest and then work is what God designed for man to do. We see it in the Sabbath. I rest the 7th day in order to be able to work the next 6 days. (That, as we saw, was instituted at creation) In other words, my Sabbath rest is symbalic of the fact that I am resting in waht Jesus has "done" seven days a week. If I try to work and then rest then my "doing" is filthy rags. But if I am resting in what He has "done" then my "doing" will be of Him and not of me. Furthermore, my "doing" is NEVER meritorious whether it is done before I rest or after I rest. We see the principle of "done" vs "do" restated again in the death of Jesus. After He finished the work His Father sent Him to "do" then He laid down His life and said it is "done" (it is finished). Notice that only God and Jesus can rightfully get the "do"/"done" mix backwards, so to speak. God's creation was the "do" followed by the rest of being "done". Jesus' re-creation was the "do" followed by the rest in the tomb of being "done". For God and Jesus it is totally appropriate for them to "do" and then be "done". They are GOD!!! But for man there is only one way that actually works and that is to rest in the "done" and from that position of strength, "do". Poorly written but I hope you get my point. WalkOnWater | ||
| Tricia Registered user Username: Tricia Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2006 |
Yes, thank you Ramone for that wonderful explanation! You get right to the heart of things and explain it so clearly and meaningfully. The sentence that stands out so much to me is when you said "Instead of waiting on the Lord and asking Him to fill you with His Spirit and let you know He lives in you, we skip past that vital step #1 and try to do the right things by which we think we'll prove that we're filled & saved." To me, that was something I had a hard time with in my relationship with Jesus--the part about waiting on the Lord. Also, thanks for summarizing so well the other very important points in your post! Tricia | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 421 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Walk, I got your point. However, did you notice that the 7th day of creation had no "evening and morning"?  On top of it, the kind of "work" that Adam & Eve would've done would be nothing like what we would consider "work" -- the ground produced no thorns, they didn't have to sweat or "toil", they didn't need a house or a fire to keep warm, and in short, nature didn't resist them or give them cause for "labor". (I wrote a little about this on another thread awhile ago). In a nutshell, the Sabbath-rest of Christ declares that because we are in Him, we no longer have to worry about how to become saved, nor about falling out of salvation. Instead we are free to live a life of love & praise -- not because we need to love & praise to stay "right", but rather because we want to love & praise. It's like non-compulsive "giving" -- we don't give to be blessed or to prevent offending God, but instead we give out of our hearts because we want others to be blessed & happy. It's extremely, extremely hard for the vast majority of people raised in Adventism to enter His Sabbath-rest from their works. The Old Covenant law is kept ever before us, not to mention Ellen White's unscriptural ideas about the end times (goodness, that's a whole 'nother topic), so all in all most Adventists continue "keeping Sabbath" just in case or just to be safe. Many sadly feel like it makes God happy or unhappy if they do or don't "keep Sabbath". Paul's comment in Colossians reveals that Sabbath was a shadow of Christ, not the substance or reality. And not only that, but we're not to judge each other by it. Because it's not the substance/reality (rather, Christ is) and we're not to judge each other, this clearly shows that God does not judge us by the Sabbath, either. He's called us to walk in the Light, not in the shadows, per say, because that is the place where we know His blood covers our sins and that He sets us free. That is where we see clearly, where we behold Him and find out who we truly are in His sight clearly -- in the Light. Again, it's the trouble of jumping to focusing on "works". The Adventist understanding of "grace" is definitely on the rise, but it is still being held back from letting the vast majority of Adventists enter His rest because it's being hampered by the Old Covenant Law. Many people think, "Yeah, Grace, I know that." Many Adventist intellectuals even seem to be kind of bored of talking about "grace" and want to move beyond grace. Others try to "balance grace and law" ... when Paul himself didn't try to "balance" but simply said that the law is ended in Christ for those who believe. In Adventism, we're simply afraid of being lost too much to let go of the Old Covenant and fully trust in His grace. So we try to preach His grace -- but hang onto Law, just in case (and also so that we don't cause too big of "waves"). Dinnertime! Blessings in His rest, Ramone | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 258 Registered: 11-2004 |
Walk, Thank you for that long explanation. A few questions if you have the time.... 1. What do you believe happens when a person is saved or born again? 2. Do you believe a person can lose their salvation by not following the 10 commandments? If so, at what level of sin would a person lose his salvation (i.e. murder or thinking evil about another person, adultery or lust)? 3. What role does the Holy Spirit play in the life of a Christian? Thanks for your time! |
