| Author | Message | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2005 |
Does anyone know about this? The bible study group is going to be talking about it next week,they say it's not a salvation issue just a way and a gift to speak in tongues to God so that the devil doesnt know what your talking about. My understanding from scripture is that tongues is for a specific reason. Juat wondered your thoughts,Dawn | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 571 Registered: 7-2004  |
Why would it matter that your prayer be spoken in a way "so that the devil doesn't know what your talking about"? Isn't God far more powerful than the Devil? What about the "greater is He Who is in me" verse? This sounds similar to the SDA idea that praying in our head can be a good way to keep the Devil from knowing what we're praying about. Your group is right that speaking in tongues is not a salvational issue. The Bible is even quite clear that not all speak in tongues, not all have the same gifts. I've honestly never heard anyone say the reason for prayer language is so the Devil won't know what you're praying about (and you certainly won't find the Bible saying that). Although I have heard Christians who are against speaking in tongues say how do you know the devil isn't speaking through someone who speaks in tongues? It could go both ways, but I haven't seen that warned against in the Bible either. Either way, I tend to stay out of the discussion, and this very topic is on the locked theology area--you might want to check it out. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2006 |
Wolfgang: Check out 1 Cor 14:2, 1 Cor 14:14 and 1Cor 14: 21-22. I suppose thatís why some call it prayer language, I have experienced this phenomenon, and I say phenomenon gently because I do not wish to offend the Holy Spirit in any way, over the last 35 years, I will tell you what my experience with it is to the best of my ability, yet you still will not know without the realty of it. Sometimes when I begin to pray about something, mostly here in my office as I meditate on Gods word, I begin to pray with my understanding (English) and then I will slip into an unknown tongue and finish my prayer, when that happens, I feel and I said feel mind you, that the Holy Spirit has taken my prayer and prayed in the perfect will of the father. When I pray in an unknown tongue, my mind doesnít go blank and I donít start drooling out the side of my mouth, my mind is still perfectly clear on what is on my heart and I am making my desire made known to God. My eyes usually do fill with tears though because I feel so, the love and comfort of the Lord Jesus. However, since I have no earthly idea what I am saying, I have no legitimate proof that I could give someone. I do know one thing, the devil has nothing to do with it, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am praying to my God and your God. The only thing the devil might get out of it is the short end of the stick. However in saying all this, I have probably opened up a can of worms that has been hashed over more than any other subject so I will not say more on this thread. I agree with Raven, the locked theology area is a good place to read what people say about it. That is probably the best area for this kind of subject, there are vast differences in theology concerning the gifts and it is not a salvation issue as Raven says. The Lord bless your group abundantly in your Bible study. River | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2006 |
Dawn, this subject has split believers in many different situations. And I doubt that people on this forum would be any less opinionated. I agree with River about 1 Corinthians 14 but would like to add that you may want to read and prayerfully study 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 all together before you meet with your group. The 12th chapter talks about spiritual gifts. The 14th deals more specifically with specific issues around tongues. And the love chapter ties it all together. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 254 Registered: 11-2004 |
Quote: "so that the devil doesnt know what your talking about" I haven't encountered believers who speak in tongues that say tongues is so the devil won't know what you are talking about, but I'm sure there are some who do believe that. The believers that I am familiar with say that tongues is so you can pray God's perfect will. As others said, there is a whole recent thread in the theology section. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 572 Registered: 7-2004 |
"so you can pray God's perfect will" is also human speculation, as is "so that the devil doesn't know what your talking about." The Bible says no such thing about praying in tongues. I would be very careful of anyone in a position of teaching to Christians who so readily adds human logic beyond what the Bible states. We've all been down that path before. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 255 Registered: 11-2004 |
Raven, Actually the "so you can pray God's perfect will" is based on Romans 8 (quoted below) "26So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance. 27And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God's will.(F)" | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 573 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well it says nothing about praying in tongues in these verses, and I believe the Holy Spirit does what is promised in these verses for every single believer, including me, who has never spoken in tongues. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi Raven, I have friends who "pray in the Spirit" without praying in tongues, and I have other friends who "pray in the Spirit" and it usually if not always means tongues for them. I suppose the common thread is a kind of process where you get in touch with your spirit inside of you -- and with His Spirit -- and let Him lead your prayers. Blessings to you in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 575 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks Ramone, I understand that. The Holy Spirit does what He has promised to do with our prayers, with or without the prayers being in tongues. Therefore, my point stands that these verses are not saying prayer language is "so that you can pray God's perfect will". It can't be FOR that, if the Holy Spirit makes that happen with or without tongues. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2006 |
I am reminded of an incident several years ago when I met a young Church of Christ pastor on my job, he suggested that he come to my house for a quote ìBible Studyî so I said ìSure, come alongî before that quote ìBible studyî was over that evening I thought the poor pastor was going to have a heart attack, no joke, that left a sour taste I have never forgotten. That evening both of us stumbled in our zeal. I tried to figure out how two honest Christian could do so much damage to each other in one hour. What would have happened if I had turned the conversation to the Cross when I saw it going bad, I could simply have turned it by saying ìleaving that, tell me about the Cross, I want to hear about Jesus again, how he died, was buried and resurrected for me.î It would have turned out with both of us feeling, as brothers, we had again viewed Calvary with awe. And that reminds me of this song. Turn your eyes upon Jesus. Look full on his wonderful face. Then the cares of this world, will grow strangely dim. In the light of his glorious Grace. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 259 Registered: 11-2004 |
Raven, The Romans 8 versus describes one of the things the Holy Spirit does. The Bible describes the prayer-language tongues as one where the Holy Spirit speaks through us as shown in 1 Corinthinas 14:2 "2For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding]." and in Jude 20 "20But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith [[d]make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], praying in the Holy Spirit;" You are right Raven. The Romans 8 texts do not come out and say exactly that the purpose of tongues is to pray the perfect will of God. Howver, I do find it to be a plausible conclusion that the Holy Spirit will be doing one of His jobs when I pray in the Spirit. Also, I do find that the "pray the perfect will of God" does fit in with the texts saying that tongues are for our edification and for building ourselves up. Now does that mean that tongues are the only way the Holy Spirit can accomplish that job? No, I don't believe we can put things into such a tight box. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 577 Registered: 7-2004 |
The topic of tongues doesn't even come up in Romans 8, IMO. The Romans 8 verses don't even say "when we pray in the Spirit" - it just says we don't know how to pray as we should (that's me!), and the Holy Spirit takes care of it for us (thank you!). Anyway, I don't want to fight about it, I just took it a little personal when it was alluded that one of my favorite Bible promises might not apply to me because it is supposedly meant for those who pray in tongues. (Now we know why it's a good plan for me to usually stay out of these type discussions!) I just like to go with the plainest meaning of Scripture within its context, because human inferences and logic simply doesn't equal Biblical teaching. That may leave me with a lot of unanswered questions, but I'm fine with that. (Message edited by Raven on October 23, 2006) | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 261 Registered: 11-2004 |
I'm sorry Raven. I certainly didn't mean to offend or hurt you in any way. I was just attempting to explain that viewpoint. It was not my intention to suggest that the Romans 8 texts were only for people who speak in tongues. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 578 Registered: 7-2004 |
No problem, U2 - you didn't hurt or offend me, especially since I was pretty sure you didn't mean the implication. I just find that teaching (purpose of tongues is to pray the perfect will of God) offensive and outside of what the Bible actually says. After seeing all the hoops SDA's go through to support their beliefs, I cringe when I see methods that appear similar. | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 108 Registered: 10-2005 |
that's kinda what I was thinking Raven,I dont think I have to jump through anymore hoops,and at this study I actully heard a lady say her faith must be weak because she has not spoken in tongues. I thought that was alittle like SDA taching on God cant hear your prayers if your eating meat.I think I will skip next weeks study,thanks all Dawn | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4830 Registered: 12-2003  |
Actually, Raven, I see the Romans 8 passage the way you see it. I know that Paul isn't by any means limiting what it means to have the Holy Spirit make intercession for usóHe is able to do that in ways we can't even perceive. Regarding praying God's will, thoughóI remember our women's Bible study leader saying, "If you want to be sure you are 'praying God's will', pray Scripture." It is remarkable how MUCH of life is covered in some of the prayers and promises of the epistles and the words of Jesus. I know I've shared prayers from Paul before, but here's another one I recently rediscovered: Philippians 1:9-11. I'm finding many of these passages to be really amazing and perceptive prayers that I pray often for Richard and my sons as well as for other people in my life (well, and for myself, too). Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2006 |
Can of worms A minister decided that a visual demonstration would add emphasis to his Sunday sermon. Four worms were into four different jars. The first worm was put into a jar of alcohol. The second worm was placed into a jar of cigarette smoke. The third worm was put into a jar of chocolate syrup. The fourth worm was put into a jar of clean soil. At the conclusion of the sermon, the minister reported the results: The first worm in alcohol was dead. The second worm in cigarette smoke was dead. The third worm in chocolate syrup was dead. The fourth worm in good clean soil was alive and well. The minister then ask, what can you learn from this demonstration. A lady in the back quickly raised her hand and said. ìAs long as you drink, smoke and eat chocolate, you wonít have worms.î | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 263 Registered: 11-2004 |
Colleen, I agree to be sure you are praying God's will - pray scripture. The promises of scripture are the will of God. Another thought regarding the "praying God's perfect will" aside from Romans 8. If you believe that tongues are a prayer language and the Spirit is praying through you, I am sure you would agree that the Spirit would be only praying God's perfect will. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 422 Registered: 10-2002 |
The association of "praying in the Spirit" and "praying in tongues", I believe, comes from 1st Corinthians 14, about midway through the chapter. |
