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Walkonwater
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Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone:

With all due respect I wonder if you really heard what I said.

My point has nothing to do with whether the first Sabbath had an evening and morning. Instead I was trying to show that the

"REST" AND THEN "WORK" PRINCIPLE

is woven into the very fabric of the Bible and the world around us.

God "works" and then "rests".
Mankind is to "rest" and then "work".
In fact Hebrews goes so far as to say we are to "WORK" to enter that "REST".

The bottom line is that as I truly "rest" in Christ, then my "works" will be of Him rather than of me. If I walk in the Spirit ("rest" in the Spirit) I will not fulfill ("work") the lusts of the flesh.

However, one can fully, 100% subscribe to the truth that my works have nothing to do with my salvation and not have salvation.

Why? Because this "rest" is no mere intellectual acknowledgement of this truth. Instead it is a living, vital, "rest" in Christ by faith.

Depending on God, rather than on self, is something we all struggle with because it is not natural to the flesh. By nature I depend on myself. And my flesh is ALWAYS nagging, badgering me to depend on ME instead of God.

Problems with understanding and applying these principles are NOT unique to Adventism. It is a problem for ALL MANKIND.

We all struggle with this unless you believe in holy flesh and then you are sinless and don't need this forum. (grin)

WalkOnWater

U2bsda
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Post Number: 260
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walkonwater said "God "works" and then "rests".
Mankind is to "rest" and then "work"."

Do I understand correctly that you get this principle from the 7 day week and the evening/morning cycle? If mankind is to rest and then work then why would the Sabbath rest be at the end of the weekly cycle instead of the beginning?

Leviticus 25 seems to suggest that the working comes before the Sabbath rest. " 3For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits.

4But in the seventh year there shall be a sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a sabbath to the Lord; you shall neither sow your field nor prune your vineyard."
Bigal
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Post Number: 19
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First I am not saying that Sunday is a Sabbath day, but following the rest then work idea above it would seem that Sunday would make logical sense for the rest day.

Just my very poor 2 cents,

Alan
Susans
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Username: Susans

Post Number: 28
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John 6:24-34 NASB

24. When the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25. And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You get here?" 26. Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves, and were filled. 27. "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, [even] God, has set His seal." 28. They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29. Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." 30. They said therefore to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31. "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.'" 32. Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33. "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." 34. They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread."
Jeremy
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk,

The point is that Adam and Eve did not "work" after "resting"--they didn't "work" period. They only "rested," every day of the week (until the Fall).

That rest was a type of salvation's rest. This means that it is ALL about the "done" and NOT AT ALL about "do." This is what sets Christianity apart from every other religion.

We do NO works with regard to salvation. It is ALL about what Christ has DONE for us. We completely (and forever) cease from our works of trying to earn salvation and enter God's rest (Hebrews 3-4).

No, salvation is not a matter of resting and then working! It is ALL about resting in Christ's finished work on the Cross for us! That is why "Today"--every day of the week--is the Sabbath rest which remains for the people of God (Hebrews 4)!

Salvation is not a "struggle." Salvation is giving up "struggling," and trusting Christ's death alone to save us!

I have already been saved by Jesus' blood--my sins have been blotted out forever! It is finished!

There is no struggle.

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on October 23, 2006)
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4831
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk, here's my questions: why are you here explaining and teaching Adventist doctrine when none of us believe itóand we know WHY we don't believe it?

First, Jeremy explained the "rest" problem very well. We are never expected to work for our salvationóeither to become saved or to stay saved.

Ephesians 2 summarizes the entire process of salvation and sanctification succinctly. (Romans explains it in great depth and detailóand both tell the "same story".)

First, Jesus did NOT save everybody on the cross. Jesus took all of humanity's sin into Himselfóand He shed His blood for humanity. But His death did NOT place everyone in the "saved until a choice is made" category. Such an idea, actually, is a serious heresy.

Ephesians 2:1-4 is extremely clear that all people are born dead in transgressions and sinsóJew and Gentile alike. All men "are by nature objects of wrath" (v. 4). But because of His great love for us, "God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsóit is by grace you have been saved."

This being made alive did not occur at Jesus' death. It is the moment of our new birth. And our new birth is NOT brought about because we were placed in the "forgiven" catgegory before birth. The Bible is very clear that God elects some to be savedóAND that all must believe and choose whom they will serve.

The rest of the Epehsians passage clarifies that we (Paul's audience is born-again Christ-followers) have been raised up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms. All this is because of His graceóand we are saved by grace through Faithówhich itself is a gift from God, not of ourselves (v. 8).

We are born with NOTHING to recomend usóand we are NOT automatically covered by Christ's blood when we are born. Noówe must be brought to life by God Himself and given saving faith. And in a paradox we cannot explain, we also must excersice the faith that God gives us and place our trust in Jesus.

Jesus' death was sufficient for all, but efficacious only for the elect. (Read Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 for more about election.)

As long as you believe that people are born covered by Jesus' blood, you miss the entire reality of the miracle of God's grace and regeneration of each person who places their faith in Jesus. This belief says that people are essentially born saved and are lost by their "work"ówhether or not they choose to live in obedience to the law.

Romans 1, 2, and the first half of 3 detail in really vivid detail how LOST each person is intrinsically. Only those who exercise faith in God and His promises are saved. But they are intrinsically lost. 1 Corinthians 15:22 and Romans 5:14 explain that ALL mankind is born doomed to death, "even those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam..." (Roman 5:14). Colossians 1:13-14 also says that the Father "rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin".

God Himself rescues us, transfers us from intrinsic death to life in Chirstóall of our salvation is all of God. We do NOT work to enter His rest. What the author of Hebrews is saying in Hebrews 4 is that israel with the law never entered God's promised rest. He is appealing to everyone today to give up his own work and enter God's rest TODAY.

As Jeremy says, there is no struggle! Yes, God convicts me in ongoing ways of the places in my heart where I haven't given Him permission to heal my sinful impulses with His Spirit. There is ongoing "death" as I give up my right to be in control, to be right, to be good or obedientóand allow myself to be empowered and enlivened by God Himself in me.

Our struggle is not with or for salvation on any levelóit is the struggle of death against lifeómy old self and my habits wanting to stay in control, wanting to be indulgedóand my conviction that my relationship with Jesus Himself demands that I give Him my urges. It is completely different from struggling to give up bad habits and get the victory. Now I have to submit and surrender my sinful tendencies to Him. Now I have to offer myself as a living sacrifice, allowing Him to do in me whatever He knows needs to be done.

Only when the Holy Spirit indwells us are we made alive. People are not born "alive". Jesus was the only human born alive. Jesus died to remove the power of sin. Whether I am saved or lost depends upon what I do with Jesus the Sin Bearer. But His death does not forgive the sins of the unrepentant. It is sufficient for their forgiveness, but they are not covered by His blood until they are made alive in Jesus.

We are NOT born "saved", waiting only to validate our salvation by our own choice. NO! We are born dead and lost! Jesus Himself brings us to life, and He places saving faith in our hearts! It is all of Him.

Colleen
Tisha
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Username: Tisha

Post Number: 202
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk - I'm getting very uncomfortable with the one-sided dialogue. I would like for you to directly answer some of the questions put to you.

I understand you are gathering information for a book, but am concerned that you might not really "hear" what we are saying. The words you use and know are interpreted differently in the SDA denomination than in Christianity in general. So what I am trying to figure out, is are we even speaking the same language? I don't think so. I am concerned about what you plan to do with this information, when I don't think you understand just what it is we are trying to say to you. There are huge doctrinal differences between SDAs and Christianity as a whole. I don't think you have grasped that yet.

When you don't answer our questions, it leaves me wondering if you even understand the importance of them.

One question I will repeat, which was asked earlier (I can't remember who asked it). It was a VERY important question and can only be answered one way if one believes EGW is a true prophet of God (as the SDAs insist one must beleive to be SDA), and another way if one really understands that Salvation is by Grace ALONE. So, here is the question I would like you to answer honestly "yes" or "no" -

Do you KNOW you ARE saved right NOW?

That is the bottom line to being a born-again, Grace-given, Spirit-filled Christian. This is really all that truly matters.

PLEASE answer at least this one question.

tisha
Walkonwater
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Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The question was asked, "why are you here explaining and teaching Adventist doctrine when none of us believe it"

First, what I had to say is not official Adventist doctrine. This happens to be what I beleive to be true and I got it from Desmond Ford who was releived of his ministrial credentials because he did not teach Adventist doctrine.

Second, I was asked by a number of people on this forum to explain what I beleive. As you know, if you have read my other posts, I have been VERY reluctant to express my views because I figured it would be construed as teaching Adventist doctine.

Oh well, you can't win them all! (grin)

WalkOnWater


Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4834
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WalkOnWater, Desmond Ford's doctrines are Desmond Ford's doctrines...not necessarily the Bible's. Desmond Ford is still loyal to Ellen Whiteóat least he was a few years ago when I edited one of his articles. As long as he holds onto her, he is not free to subject all his doctrines to the Bible alone.

The things you have posted on this thread are not Biblical Christianity. They are more nearly like "1888 theology", and they reflect Ellen White's views.

I've discovered that the Bible is extremely consistentópeople for 2,000 years have arrived at exactly the same gospel by studying the Bible alone. When one derives his or her doctrine from other people's study, one walks on shaky ground. That doesn't mean one doesn't read other people's ideas; but everything needs to be subjected to the word of God with prayer for God to teach us truth.

Colleen
Walkonwater
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Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 31
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Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,
I appreciate your post. Would you mind if I used it to help clarify my position on this topic?

I hope that was a "yes" I heard. (grin)

Jeremy, you say in your post...
"The point is that Adam and Eve did not "work" after "resting"--they didn't "work" period. They only "rested," every day of the week (until the Fall)."

WOW responds:
Jeremy, I respectfully disagree. Adam and Eve had work to do in the garden before the fall. Genesis 2:15 says, "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden TO DRESS IT AND TO KEEP IT." They were to tend the garden and care for the animals. That was the "work" Adam was to ìdoî after that first Sabbath "rest".

Jeremy says:
"That rest was a type of salvation's rest. This means that it is ALL about the "done" and NOT AT ALL about "do." This is what sets Christianity apart from every other religion."

WOW responds:
Jeremy, yes that first Sabbath rest set the stage for the "rest" then "work" principle. But that Sabbath rest was a "symbol" of the salvation rest AND it WAS the salvation rest. ADAM and EVE were in fact resting in God all day, all week, all month, all year until sin broke the relationship.

But Jesus' death on the cross made it possible for ADAM'S Sabbath rest to be restored. Once again we can rest in Jesus all day, all week, all month, all year. That is what Hebrews is telling us. That we can once again enter that rest.

But that rest does not mean sitting around like a slug. It means a rest that gives us the strength to get up and do. That's why we are told by Jesus to "do" what He commands? That's why James tells us that he proves his faith by his works?

That's why the righteous and the wicked are judged by what they "do". (You did not give me drink, you did not clothe me, you did not feed me. Away from me you workers of iniquity!) (And for the righteous, you clothed me, and fed me and gave me to drink. Enter in ...)

Jesus told the parlytic, "rest" in the fact that your sins are forgiven. Then he said ("do" this) take up your bed and follow me.

Saving grace always begins with resting in Christ and out of that ìrestî I am empowered to ìdoî the works my Father calls me to do.

Jeremy says:
"We do NO works with regard to salvation. It is ALL about what Christ has DONE for us. We completely (and forever) cease from our works of trying to earn salvation and enter God's rest (Hebrews 3-4)."

WOW responds:
Right on! Yes you have hit the nail on the head! We cease from works of trying to earn salvation. But we do not cease from works. In fact the spirit of God that dwells within us motivates us to do the works of God.

Another thing I would add is that Hebrews doesn't simply say to enter rest, it says that we are to ìstriveî "work at" "labor" at entering that rest. This rest is an active thing, not a passive thing.

Jeremy says:
"No, salvation is not a matter of resting and then working! It is ALL about resting in Christ's finished work on the Cross for us! That is why "Today"--every day of the week--is the Sabbath rest which remains for the people of God (Hebrews 4)"

WOW responds:
You are correct. SALVATION is not about resting and working. It is the CHRISTIAN LIFE that is all about resting and working. Personally I see the Sabbath as symbolic of the fact that I am resting in Christ 7 days per week.

Just like we give one tenth of our money in tithe to symbolically show that ALL our money is His. So too we give 1/7th of our time to Him as a symbol of our rest in Him seven days per week.
Jeremy says:
"Salvation is not a "struggle." Salvation is giving up "struggling," and trusting Christ's death alone to save us!"

WOW responds:
It is true that the struggle should never be about getting saved. The struggle comes in continuing to hold on, by faith, to what Christ has already done. In fact this struggle is so intense it is called a "FIGHT"! The fight of faith. As the Bible says, we struggle, wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, etc.

To say there is no work, no struggle is to deny Scripture. Phil. 2:12 makes that clear. "continue to WORK OUT your salvation with fear and trembling," Phil. 2:12

The key is whether we are struggling to be saved or struggling to fight the good fight of faith.

Just because we have accepted Jesus as Lord of our life does not mean the flesh falls silent. The world, the flesh, and the Devil will continue to assail us and try to convince us that what Jesus has done, is not for me.

We must struggle against those evil powers by fighting the good fight of faith. Our fight is NEVER to get salvation. Our fight is to keep our eyes focused on Jesus - to keep holding on to what Jesus has ìdoneî.

If there is no struggle, no fight then why are we admonished to put on the gospel armor?

Jeremy says:
"I have already been saved by Jesus' blood--my sins have been blotted out forever!"

WOW responds:
Amen brother! The struggle comes when the world, the flesh or the Devil come and try to convince me that what God has done is not for me. It is then I must instantly look away from myself and look to Jesus the author and finisher of my faith.

God bless,
WalkOnWater

Remember: All the debate in the world never fed a hungry child or gave water to a thirsty soul. Heaven does not go to great debaters of the Word but great doers of the Word.
Raven
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Post Number: 581
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 5:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem I have with the SDA viewpoint of us having to struggle to hold on is that it seems that makes it up to us to retain or maintain our salvation. I can't tell from your post, Walk, if that's exactly what you believe, but that is indeed the standard SDA perspective, even from the 1888 message types.

The reason I find it problematic to have to maintain our salvation (albeit with the help of Christ), is that then we have done something to earn the right to be in heaven. Besides, how much is enough? How is that measured? I've heard "just so we do the best we can." Does anyone ever do the best they can?

I'm just so grateful the Holy Spirit is the deposit in my heart, placed there at the moment of new birth, that guarantees my inheritance of eternal life. Ephesians 1:13,14. Contrast that to the SDA idea that the Sabbath (if we worship on/keep that day) is the seal that guarantees us eternal life.

Yes, believers struggle, because they care about doing the works of God with a desire placed there by the Holy Spirit. For some reason, God has chosen not to give us the ability to perfectly do His works on earth, but only the desire to. Obviously He gradually changes us--in His own time, for His own purposes, but I've never seen one example of anyone who eventually did God's works perfectly. SDA's generally would have you believe you have to reach either perfection to retain salvation, or others teach you have to at least reach all the potential towards that goal that you are personally capable of. It still puts the onus on how well we do as to whether or not we make it.

I find it interesting that with all the struggles the new Christians had in the New Testament, and all the admonitions Paul gave, he still called them saints and still spoke to them as if their salvation was already a sure thing, (already seated in heavenly places for one example) instead of a carrot held out in front of them to be given as a reward for becoming as perfect as possible.

Another point I noticed as an SDA. It seemed we were taught you start out saved (such as at baptism), then as soon as you fall (by sin of ommission or commission), then you weren't placing your faith in Jesus. So now you're not saved, until you have confessed and forsaken that sin. Then you're saved until the next sin, etc. etc. That's why you could never say you were definitely saved because who knew what the final result would be? You could be saved and unsaved many times a day. I believe the Bible teaches remaining faithful to Jesus means continuing trust in Jesus in the good times and the bad, and all during our many falls that we will have until the day we die. I can't imagine throwing away my belief/trust in Jesus, and so I am confident that I am saved, because Jesus did it and He is trustworthy and faithful.

(Message edited by Raven on October 24, 2006)
Timmy
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Post Number: 86
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 5:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, Your last paragraph reminds me of a statement I heard my father-in-law say just last week. He said at their evangelistic meetings they had an alter call for baptism, 10 people came forward, and with great enthusiasm in his voice he said, "I even think one of them was a non-Adventist!!!"

It is really sad that there is no security in SDA theology. Members keep getting rebaptized and rebaptized. It reminds me of that old covenant system where you would sacrifice, then later do another...
U2bsda
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Post Number: 266
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 7:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sadly, I had an SDA pastor tell me that we need to be saved everyday and when hearing that people came to Jesus at a non-SDA meeting he expressed concern that they stay saved.

Our good works may be a natural result of being saved, but they can do nothing to add or subtract from our salvation. We can only be saved by the blood of Jesus. If Jesus came to enable us to keep the law or to enable us to do good works to maintain our salvation then Jesus did not do a complete work. I think Ephesians 2 (Amplified Bible) speaks to this issue:

"5Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).

6And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us [b]joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

7He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([c]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]"

We are seated with Him in heavenly places. We are not struggling. We already have the victory in Him. If we are sinning or struggling it is because we do not realize that Jesus has already made us righteous. Notice the tense in the Ephesians texts - it is past tense. Those aren't things that will happen in the future in the life of a Christian, but things that have already happened when the person came to Jesus.
Agapetos
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Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 7:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi WoW,

Sorry, I know you've got a lot of different folks talking to you at once, but I wanted to respond to what you'd written to me.

Yes, I want you to know that I did hear what you said, but I hoped to highlight a subtle but very strong difference.

What you wrote sounded similar to a reversal of the typical SDA approach to salvation. If I may summarize things drastically, the historial SDA approach since its inception has been "Law, then rest". The reversal you suggested sounds very similar to that spoken by many liberal Adventists, "Rest, then works". For the bulk of Adventists, even liberal Adventists, "works" equals "keeping the Law". So in essence, it's "Rest, then Law."

What their viewpoint misses is that in Christ the Law is ended, according to the clear teaching of Scripture. This approach is essentially a synthesis of "grace" and "law", whereas the New Testament Scripture only knows "grace".

Christ was asked in John 6:28-29, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" He responded bluntly, "This is the work God requires: to believe in the One He has sent." They wanted to know "works", but He wanted them to know Himself and what God had sent Him to do (HIS work). Christianity is about His work, not about ours.

You'd written citing the example of Eden, of the seven-day work/rest cycle. It is wisdom for the natural, but Scripture paints a different picture in the things of the Spirit.

In the natural, we have to do either one or the other. Work is work and rest is rest. This is our idea and our five or six-day work week reflects it. But in Christ's salvation (and the "works" that follow) it is not the same. In Christ, "work" and "rest" are not mutually exclusive. Rather, "work" is done from inside of His rest.

Just like in the Garden of Eden before the fall. Before sin entered, "work" was absolutely nothing like what "work" is for us today. It did not involve toil, sweat, removing thorns or other resistance from nature. Basically if we are honest, we'll realize that "work" for Adam & Eve was something we simply cannot fathom! It's out of this world.

Today, after five or six days of work, we truly feel like we need a break! But for Adam and Eve, their whole lives existed in what we would at best imagine to be a leisurly holiday or a retirement home hobby.

For us in the working world, after six days of this kind of "work", we might go stir-crazy! It might be TOO relaxing for us. Workaholics would implode from feeling so "inactive". They'd find some way to make "hard" work of it.

I said this was Adam & Eve's whole existence. And it seems truly so, because the seventh day did not have "evening and morning". When did sin enter? None of us know. However the picture from the first account of creation strongly suggests that God's "rest" was to be everlasting. The second account of creation shows the same paradise for mankind which came to an end with sin & the resulting curse. After sin & the curse entered, Adam would for the first time begin to know "work" as we know it. But prior to "sin", his "work" was nothing like ours. In fact, all the things he did for "work" in the garden would likely have been well-approved Sabbath activities by not only Adventists but also by Jews.

We can't fathom what Adam & Eve's "work" was like before sin.

In the same way, we cannot understand the "works" after "rest" (after salvation) until we let the Law of sin and death come to an end.

If we don't let the Law end, we will continue to be like a workaholic in the Garden of Eden. Where Christ has called us to rest, we will continue to make "works" out of it and tell those around us about how they need to think about this Law and that.

A kind of shadow of the Christ's Sabbath-rest is found in one of the Hebrew words for "work" which can be translated "worship". It was used for the Levites & ministers in the tabernacle & temple. They "worked", but it was "worship". In our Western "sacred vs. secular" compartmentalized lives, we esteem one day (or place) as "sacred" and other activities as "secular". But for the Levites & priests, their whole lives were "sacred". In the Garden it is the same way. Our lives are all "sacred". Our bodies become the Temple of God---the Holy Spirit makes the home of the Father & Son inside of us. Our every motions and actions are all "in the temple". Our work becomes sanctified. Our pots & kitchen utensils become "holy to the Lord". We live in His presence, and He lives in us. We in Christ, the "nation of priests", now live on a larger scale what the Levites & priests foreshadowed.

And now, in Christ, we begin to realize that what He has done has actually brought us even closer to Him than what Adam & Eve knew. They lived with God walking among them. But now God lives inside of us. God has "moved in". Now we have become His "garden" -- we have become "Eden restored". (Notice also in Revelation 21:9-10 that the "New Jerusalem" is "the bride")

We are His garden. This alone ought to stop us. The Chinese preacher Watchman Nee once wrote:

quote:

The thought of a garden was God's original thought, as is seen in the beginning of Scripture. Thus, after creation of the universe and of man, God planted a garden. A garden is neither common ground nor ground for the planting of things at random, nor is it ground for agricultural purposes, but for the production of something for beauty and for pleasure. In a garden there may be trees; but the thought is not for timber. There may be fruit, but the value is not calculated in terms of commercial produce. The one and only objective is flower and blossom, which are to be gathered as something beautiful and exotic.


We are for the pleasure and satisfaction of our Bridegroom-Lover! Realize that you are His garden... more than what you can "do for Him" or what you think He "wants you to do".

Yes, He has "works" for us, but these are the works of Eden restored, not the works of the Law of sin & death. Just as we could not fathom the works of Eden before the fall, if we focus on the Law we will find ourselves continually thinking and behaving like workaholics in Eden. The "works" of Eden Restored are also unfathomable to those who look at it through the eyes of the fall (the eyes of the Law which came to point out sin).

God has called us to a new life, a new walk, and also a new kind of "work" -- it is "life in the Spirit", not "life by the letter (of the Law)". When you ask almost any Adventist what the works God requires are, they will answer the Law. If you ask liberal Adventists, they may give a slightly looser answer, but will stick to Law as the guide. Yet God has called us to something new. If we're asked what the "work" God requires is, instead of popping up our hand and saying, "Oooh, I know! It's the 10 Commandments!", instead of that, He's whispering an exciting thing into our ear: "Rest! Believe in the One I've sent, the One who has finished the works for you!"

And then He calls us into an exciting relationship after salvation, where we have no "list" on the wall, but He says, "Find out what pleases Me..." (Eph.5:10) :-)
Walkonwater
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Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 33
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I firmly believe there are two truths about salvation.

These two truths did not originate with Adventism or Ellen White

These two truths come straight from the Bible.

But before looking at these two truths we need to look at something else. And that something else is this.

Every single Bible truth comes from an apparent contradiction.

Let me give a few examples:

Jesus says that if we want to LIVE we must DIE. That is a truth that come out of an apparent contradiction.

Jesus said that if you want to be FIRST you must seek to be LAST. Another truth coming from an apparent contradiction.

Jesus said the RICH are POOR and the POOR are RICH. Two more truths steming from apparent contradictions.

Jesus talked about SIGHTED people who are BLIND and BLIND people who can SEE. Two more truths coming from apparent contradictions.

We are told that what we SEE is not real but what we don't SEE is real. More truth from contracdiction.

I could go on and on!

I have found that as I read the Bible ALL SPIRITUAL TRUTH stems from apparent contradictions.

God has designed SPIRITUAL TRUTH this way in order to make the FOOLISH WISE and make the WISE FOOLISH. (Another truth from apparent contradiction.)

If ALL spiritual truth involves apparent contradictions then it would be logical to conclude that we would find an "apparent contradiction" in the truth of SALVATION.

And indeed we do.

With SALVATION we see two contradictory truths that come together to make the ONE GREAT TRUTH of SALVATION.

What are those two contradictions?

Phil. 2:12, 13 summarizes the two contradictions very well.

As you know, Phil 2:12 starts out by saying,

"continue to WORK OUT your salvation with fear and trembling,"

This text is the first leg of the apparent contradiction.

It makes it look like salvation is entirely up to me. I must work at it! I must be fearful about it. I must be trembling about it.

The problem is that many people take this first leg of the contradiction and turn it into their theology on salvation.

This is exactly what many of you object to in Adventism. You feel strongly that Adventism turns salvation into ìeternal insecurityî. And in many cases, you would be right.

So where have we gotten so far? Let's do a quick review. Phil. 2:12 is making it look like salvation is entirely up to mankind. You and I know salvation is NOT up to us, if it was, no one would ever be saved. Right?

So the first leg of the contradiction is, MY SALVATION IS UP TO ME.

(Whew!!!)

Now let's look at the second leg of the contradiction.

The very next verse says, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Phil. 2:13

This leg of truth makes it look like salvation is ENTIRELY UP TO GOD.

It is "God who WORKS". It is God who "WILLS". It is God who "ACTS". It is God who puts within us "HIS GOOD PURPOSE".

I'm sure you can see that the two legs are in total conflict. One appears to be saying, salvation is up to me. The other is saying it is up to God.

Many Adventists take the first leg and turn it into their theology. There are also many churches which take the second leg and turn it into their theology.

The Adventists are wrong to take only the first leg of truth.

Non Adventists are wrong to take only the second leg of truth.

It is only as we wrestle with BOTH legs of Truth that Salvation gets legs to walk on.

All spiritual truth is built that way. All spiritual truth is based on contradictory legs.

But with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit those contradictions become a SINGLE, SOLID ETERNAL TRUTH.

And when we accept both legs of truth on the subject of Salvation we begin to see that SINGLE, SOLID ETERNAL TRUTH.

So what do we find when we combine the legs?

Salvation is not a process in which human beings are mere pawns on a chess board. There is something that human beings can ìdoî if they want salvation.

Letís look at some examples:

Jesus said, "whosoever will, may COME". Jesus did not say, "If you want salvation just lie immobile, like a slug, and wait for God to save you".

NO! Jesus is saying I can DO something toward my salvation. I can "COME".

The Bible continues with all sorts of things I can DO. It says, IF I SEEK Him with all my heart I will find Him." So I can SEEK him.

I can confess my sin. I can choose to take time with Him in Bible study and prayer.

(SCREEEECH!!!! Let's stop a minute here and clarify one thing.)

Just because there are things I can "DO" does NOT mean that DOING those things saves me!! Remember there are two legs to this truth. And it also says that my salvation is ALL OF GOD!

So what is the conclusion of the matter?

Salvation is a relationship. It is like any balanced relationship. It is two sided, not one sided. It is not God forcing salvation on a slug that has no will of its own. On the other hand it is not man lifting himself up to heaven by his bootstraps.

Instead, it is a living, breathing, trembling, dynamic, joyous, fearful, loving, connection between man and God. God does not force it and man does not create it. It is God pursuing man AND man pursuing God. It is two entities in the process of falling in love and being reconnected. It is God wooing us and us falling head over heals in love with the lover of our soul.

It is my firm conviction that this is the truth presented when the two apparently contradictory legs come together by the power of the Holy Spirit.

WalkOnWater
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4836
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walkóyour next-to-the-last post has demonstrated the place where the differing definitions of Adventists and Christians create a dead end in discussions. You have chosen to believe that Ellen White is a prophet of God, and the Decalogue is still the standard of Christian behavior. In spite of the clear teaching of Galatians and Hebrews and Colossians and Romans, you have chosen to believe (based on the Adventist interpretations endorsed by Ellen White) that Jesus died to uphold the law and to make it possible for us to keep it. You have chosen to view Jesus through the eyes of the law instead of seeing all of the Torah through the fulfillment of Jesus.

(BTW, you didn't respond to my suggestion that you read Galatians every day for a month and put away ALL EGW and other commentary, reading the Bible alone during that time while you pray for God to teach you the truth.)

Unless you are willing to discover what the Bible actually teaches about the New Covenant without any overlying influence from EGW or Adventist hermeneutics, engaging in these discussions will be pointless. Whenever Moses is read, a veil covers the hearts of the reader. Whenever a person turns to Christ, the veil is removed. Unless we read and understand the shadows of the entire Torah (all the OT pointed TOWARD Jesus) from the vantage point of Jesus completed atonement and our assured salvation and security at the Father's right hand in Christ, we will misunderstand the OT.

We can talk all we want, but our definitions are different. From a perspective of being born again, the "works" of a Christ-follower bear no similarity to the works of a non-born-again person. The works of a Christ-follower are to believe and to put aside the "old man" and to live by the Spirit (Romans 8). Our security in Jesus is assured when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit; only THEN can we produce works of the Spiritóand they are the Spirit working in us, not us generating the work.

Further, the works of a Christ-follower are not for salvation; they are for rewards. Those who are in Christ do not enter into judgment because our judgment has been accomplished in Jesus. We are safe and eternally secure in Him. 1 Cor. 3 explains the idea of rewards for worksóChrist-followers either do the works of the Spirit or the works of their own designing. Those works building on the foundation of Christ will be saved; those that are not built on Christ and are, instead, for people's own gratification and accomplishment and sense of purpose, will be burned upóbut the people themselves will be saved as if escaping through the flames.

When people are IN CHRIST, they are eternally secure. They do not have to "prove" or continue to deserve salvation by virtue of their works.

Now, WalkóI'm not arguing with you. I'm merely attempting to clarify the difference between a clearly Adventist perspective on works and a Christian perspective. Yet Adventists have a set of definitions for these words that mimic Christian definitions. In fact, these "mimic words" cause great confusion in those who are just discovering the true Biblical gospel. When Adventists use their "grace" words and "works-as-proof-of-loving-God" words, they don't mean what New Covenant Christians mean, but on the surface they sound the same. People on the edge of finding Biblical truth are easily confused and discouraged by these similarities.

On the surface, Adventist arguments sound almost evangelical, and they raise no eyebrows at first. In reality, however, if one follows Adventism down its path to its logical conclusion, it will be in a completely different place from Christianity. They are NOT the same.

I'm being blunt here, Walk, because there are many people lurking here who do not postóand none of us knows who these people are. Yet I want to be very clear: Adventism, no matter how one dresses it up, is NOT the true gospel. It teaches the necessity of righteous works in order to be able to pass God's judgment and thus be saved. Christianity teaches that all that is necessary for salvation is believing in Jesus, placing one's trust in Him for salvation. His subsequent works will be rewarded or destroyed, but he himself will be saved.

Salvation is NOT a reward; it is a gift. God's rewards for works is NOT salvation. Jesus earned salvation. We play absolutely no part in it. Our job is to trust Him and submit to Him.


Colleen
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4837
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It seems, Walk, that you have been less than honest in your explanation of why you are here. You said you wanted to understand why people have left Adventismóyou implied that our disucssions are helping you with research for you book about Adventism.

It is becoming clear, however, that you are not actively seeking answers or looking to understand. It seems you have commenced to defend Adventist hermeneutics and theology. It does not seem as if you are truly open to understanding our persepctive. Instead, it seems you want to convince us that Adventism is true.

This is the wrong venue for that! Those of us who are here know why we left, and we know Jesus who has fulfilled the law and ushered in the New Covenant which has made the law obsolete. In Him the veil is removed!

Colleen
Tisha
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Username: Tisha

Post Number: 203
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk - because you have not addressed the issue of your own Salvation, it seems as if you cannot say that you KNOW you are saved NOW. You have beat all around the bush to explain works versus Grace, but still you cannot say you have the assurance of Salvation right now, or that it is even possible, because tomorrow you will have to continue to work to be (re)saved. It is a daily thing, not once and for all at the time of submission to Jesus.

This is the HUGE difference between SDAs and Christians. Please try to understand this concept. It makes all the difference!

tisha
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 826
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can say it...I am 100% saved. Sealed by the Holy Spirit the minute I believed...crossed from death to life!!!!!!

That is something to shout about!!!
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha

Post Number: 204
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen, Pheeki!

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