| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 275 Registered: 11-2004 |
Maybe I didn't understand the term "born again" when I was an Adventist, but I do not remember what Adventists believe "born again" means. Due to the believe about the spirit equalling breath what do they believe is born again? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 587 Registered: 7-2004  |
As far as I recall, "born again" is more likely to be called "conversion" for an SDA. And I think the EGW definition of that is "sorrow for sin and a turning away from it." Or maybe that's the definition for repentence. I think it's all pretty much the same thing in the SDA mind. | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2004 |
SDA's are more likely these days to refer to themselves as "born again Christians"; I recall that term being frowned upon growing up. I think many felt it was too much like ìonce saved always savedî. (Ok: how about ìonce saved pretty darn impossible to be lostî?) I'm not sure that ìspirit equal breathî impacts the definition much, and am not totally clear about your question. But in general the Adventist would consider "born again" as being an aspect or a description of their conversion. It would be a term to indicate that they were a believer. Unlike some Christians the Adventist probably ascribes very little significance to the event other than it being when they first believed and turned to Christ. Depending on what they were being shown or taught at the time about the Gospel, they may just believe that it was simply a decision. I decided to believe, and therefore Iím ìborn againî. However, if they were ñas many Adventist are today ñ taught about the Holy Spirit and the power of Christ involved in conversion, they would see it as a time when Christ came into their life in a powerful way. The unfortunate fact about too many Adventists, especially historically, is that post-conversion there still is a lot of fear and uncertainty about the believerís salvation and security. There is no true belief in ìpersistence of salvationî and I donít remember (growing up) an emphasis on the power of Christ to hold and to save us from even ourselves. It felt, for me, like I had to ìdie dailyî to sin and struggle with my sinful nature in order to remain in salvation lest I fall away and lose my salvation. I recall wondering at the end of the day if I had lost my salvation or fallen out of Christís favor because of something I had done that day. This fear and doubt was closely associated with the twisted belief about the investigative judgment and the angel standing over the book with the ancient quill pen in hand, open to my page and closely watching and writing down all the sins that I did. Today Adventists hold a wide spectrum of beliefs on many doctrines depending on what they have been exposed to or where they live. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2004  |
I found this explanation of "born again" from Justin Martyr in 150 AD quite interesting. From his "Apology"; Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4844 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cforrester, good insights into the Adventist thinking about "born agan". I agree with Raven that the SDA lack of understanding of the spirit is at the heart of their not really understanding what it means to be born again and why historically that phrase has been so uncomfortable. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5-8 that no one can see the kingdom of God unless he's born both of water and the Spirit. "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." Ephesians 2:1-4 and Colossians 2:13-14 explains that we are dead in our transgression until God in His mercy brings us to life while we are dead in our sins. This life is the life the Spirit gives when we accept Jesus. When we accept Jesus and are sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), we come to life and are connected to the Father by the new, living way of Christ's blood (Hebrews 10:20). Now, made alive by the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives life and birth to our spirits, we are able to choose to live by the Spirit (Romans 8), and we are finally able to worship Jesus both in truth (knowledge and facts) and in spirit (spiritual "knowing" and worship not possible unless one's spirit is made alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit. (see John 4:21-24). Adventists do not believe people have sentient spirits that are literally dead to God until brought to life in Jesus. They do not believe humans have a part of themselves that knows God separately from the mind and survives physical death (2 Corinthians 5; Philippians 1:22-23). Jesus clearly said that being born again is birth by the Holy Spirit. If the human spirit is simply breath, as they teach (our breath returns to God who gave it, is what they say), then the Holy Spirit's indwelling is not remarkable except as a "power boost". Adventists say the Holy Spirit quickens the mind, and further say we must discipline our minds with proper religious education and good health habits in order to perceive the Holy Spirit. The Bible, however, teaches that the Spirit is spirituallyónot mentallyódiscerned (1 Corinthians 2). Jesus described this indwelling and bringing to life of our spirits as being born again. Adventists cannot explain this phenomenon because they deny the existence of a real spirit in man. But being born again is not mental belief or assent. It is a completely new exitence brought about by the indwelling of the HS and the awakening of our spirits. It is our being literally (not just figuratively) connected to God eternally via the Holy Spirit living in our spirits thus connecting us with God. This new birth results in a completely new persepctive, awareness, a new life, new power, new potential, new desires, andn a new paradigm. It is quite literally becoming a new creation. We are literally born of God. Jesus did not have to be born againóthe only human who didn'tóbecause he was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was eternally God. Adventists have no way to understand being born again because they deny the completed atonement and deny the existence of the spirit. The reality of having literal new life, spiritual life, inside a still-dying body does not make sense to them. The doctrine of soul-sleep as taught by Adventistsóincluding the non-existence of a spirit and the consequent belief that humans die exactly as animals dieónothing survives the grave except in the memory of Godóunderlies their despair and lack of security and lack of understanding the true nature of sin and of Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 591 Registered: 7-2004 |
Actually that was U2 who said that it's due to the belief about the spirit equalling breath... But that's ok, because I agree with both of you. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4845 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, sorry, U2!! Please forgive me. Yes, I agree with you! (Thanks, Raven!) Colleen | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2004 |
SDA's are more likely these days to refer to themselves as "born again Christians"; I recall that term being frowned upon growing up. I think many felt it was too much like ìonce saved always savedî. (Ok: how about ìonce saved pretty darn impossible to be lostî?) I'm not sure that ìspirit equal breathî impacts the definition much, and am not totally clear about your question. But in general the Adventist would consider "born again" as being an aspect or a description of their conversion. It would be a term to indicate that they were a believer. Unlike some Christians the Adventist probably ascribes very little significance to the event other than it being when they first believed and turned to Christ. Depending on what they were being shown or taught at the time about the Gospel, they may just believe that it was simply a decision. I decided to believe, and therefore Iím ìborn againî. However, if they were ñas many Adventist are today ñ taught about the Holy Spirit and the power of Christ involved in conversion, they would see it as a time when Christ came into their life in a powerful way. The unfortunate fact about too many Adventists, especially historically, is that post-conversion there still is a lot of fear and uncertainty about the believerís salvation and security. There is no true belief in ìpersistence of salvationî and I donít remember (growing up) an emphasis on the power of Christ to hold and to save us from even ourselves. It felt, for me, like I had to ìdie dailyî to sin and struggle with my sinful nature in order to remain in salvation lest I fall away and lose my salvation. I recall wondering at the end of the day if I had lost my salvation or fallen out of Christís favor because of something I had done that day. This fear and doubt was closely associated with the twisted belief about the investigative judgment and the angel standing over the book with the ancient quill pen in hand, open to my page and closely watching and writing down all the sins that I did. Today Adventists hold a wide spectrum of beliefs on many doctrines depending on what they have been exposed to or where they live. | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oops on dup post. Hit button twice...  | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 278 Registered: 11-2004 |
Does anyone know how an SDA would explain John 3? "3 Jesus answered and said to him, ìMost assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.î 4 Nicodemus said to Him, ìHow can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his motherís womb and be born?î 5 Jesus answered, ìMost assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ëYou must be born again.í 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.î It specifically says spirit, but if the understanding is spirit as breath it doesn't make sense. Do they simply state that the whole thing is talking about conversion without addressing the issue of what is born again or what "spirit" means? I guess I am wondering what their explanation is. I am planning on discussing this with an Adventist that I am very close to and would like to understand their viewpoint before our discussion. You would think I would understand with all my years as an Adventist, but I guess I am "forgetting those things which are behind... (Phil 3)" | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 255 Registered: 4-2005  |
And let's not forget that this "blessed assurance" is the assurance of being saved here and now, eternally saved NOW! Jn 10:28,29 is rock solid "Yes" promise fulfilled in Christ by faith received. The Lord gives His sheep the endless life of fellowship with God (Jn 17:2,3). He protects them from perishing, according to the infallibility of divine grace; and He allows no one to snatch them from His hand. The sants persevere because God preserves them. The sheep are not able to snatch themselves out of God's hand because the divine Shepherd will keep all of His true sheep from eternally straying (cf. 17:12). The solemn warnings of Scripture against apostasy are not intended to cause doubts about God's perseverance with those He has saved (cf. 1 Jn 2:19; Rom 8:30). The hand of the Shepherd is also the Father's hand, and the supreme power of God is the ultimate guarantee of the sheep's safety. Regeneration is the act of God alone, in which He renews the human heart, making it alive when it was dead. In regeneration, God acts at the origin and deepest point of the human person. This means that there is no preparation, no preceding disposition in a sinner that requests or contributes to the new life given by God. Paul describes these people in Ephesians as being by nature dead in trespasses and sins. In this state they are without God and without hope in the world. Not in response to their merit, but freely and in love, God speaks the word that raises the dead. Without the grace of God, sinners cannot find the door, let alone force their way in. Jesus said, "Without me, you can do nothing," and in speaking about salvation, "Without God, nothing is possible." Regeneration is the gift of God's grace. It is the immediate, supernatural work of the Holy Spirit wrought in us. Its effect is to quicken us to spiritual life from spiritual death. It changes the disposition of our souls, inclining our hearts to God. Sin no longer reigns, although it remains. The fruit of regeneration is faith. Regeneration precedes faith. Infants cannot recall the moment of birth. We are responsible to know whether we are spiritually alive, not the time and place we were born again. Oh Praise Him who is "Holy, Holy, Holy," for His eternal love, plan, grace and revelation of Himself in the Person of His Son, our beloved Savior and hopefully the Lord of our life, Christ Jesus. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 592 Registered: 7-2004 |
U2, interesting question. The best I can remember (here I was a life-long SDA till leaving a couple years ago, and I'm already forgetting some things!), I think as an SDA I would have read "spirit" as meaning spiritual versus secular. Having a mind for the things of God versus unholy, earthly things. So yes, the whole thing would be conversion and nothing else. Jess, I like how you said "We are responsible to know whether we are spiritually alive, not the time and place we were born again." I have no clue when I was born again, but the first I recognized being spiritually alive was about 10 years ago as an SDA, but it was only barely. Then upon leaving, it was much more profound. I think that's what Paul means when he says the inner man is being renewed day by day - we should be feeling more spiritually alive as time goes on, and I would think we should notice a spiritual growth spurt here and there. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2006 |
Cforrester, you described my experience, my emotional and spiritual state as an Adventist perfectly. The fruit born of that was the despair, lack of security, and misunderstanding of sin and Jesus as Colleen stated. The best I can recall about being "born again" was it was too close to what evangelicals talked about all the time, and since they were the "daughters of the harlot Babylon" this term was pretty much ignored. Amen, Jess! |
