| Author | Message | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2006  |
Pheeki, It makes my heart cry out when I see that some people call themselves Christians but cannot say what you just said. I can be a Buddest, a Muslim or an athiest as far as that goes, and not be sure of my salvation. But a Christian can be 100% sure he is saved, today, tomorrow and forever. You don't have to 'word it up' with mental gymnastics, or play some fancy footwork. We are saved by the blood of the lamb. No ifs, ands or buts... It took me 37 years to realize that John 3:16 really is true...  | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen: I am sorry if my posts offend. I did not intend that. I had hoped that we could have a good dialogue on this subject rather than suggestions that I am nothing but a typical Adventist who is trying to win converts to Ellen white or the Adventist Church. The theology I have presented is NOTHING I have heard from Ellen White or the Adventist Church. Instead it comes from intense study of the Bible, and a number of wonderful non Adventist Christian writers, including Tozer, C. S. Lewis, Watchman Nee, Desmond Ford, and many others. Yes I have read Ellen White but I have never found the explantion of salvation that I just gave in the pages of her writings. And as far as I know you will not find my explanation in Adventist literature. Yes I am working on a book. And as Hank Hanegraaff says, "iron sharpens iron". In other words, engaging in honest, open, dialogue in which we openly discuss the issues, rather than suggestions of bad motives, can be very constructive. I sincerely hope that I have not in any way brought any sort of accusations against anyone here. I have tried to bend over backwards not to offend. WalkOnWater | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 205 Registered: 3-2005 |
Walk, I for one am not offended by your posts. I'm just concerned that you don't really understand the Salvation without works issue. That for me was the most freeing and exciting part of discovering Christianity outside of SDAism. When I finally "got it", I just cried for joy. I want others to know Jesus' Grace - a free gift to us through faith, not works. I am so happy to say "I know I AM SAVED (right now and forever), by Faith, because of the Grace of Jesus Christ!" That is the reason I keep coming back to that one question (thanks Timmy!). Unless you KNOW, really KNOW, and can say I AM SAVED, you won't have that ture peace and joy that I, and others, have found. All the mental gymnastics in the world cannot get around this simple truth. So, please think about this question as you study the Bible - without any other "helps". Read it consistently, until you have gotten past the preconceived ideas and can take the Bible at face value. It isn't hard to understand. It is so clear when the veil is finally lifted from our eyes. So, happy studying - and may the Grace of God be with you and the Holy Spirit guide you in your studies. I will pray that this be so. tisha | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 35 Registered: 9-2006 |
The question has come up again. Can I say, "I am saved". (Is it okay if I answer this one question?) I have answered that question already on another thread but I will try to be more specific this time. Can I say, "I am saved"? The answer is a resounding "YES". Why can I say that? Because Jesus died on the cross for me and I have accepted him into my heart by faith. I am His child and I praise His name for that. However!! (oh oh, here comes the small print!) I suspect the area we would disagree on is NOT over whether one can say "I am saved". The area on which we probably disagree is this... I do not believe that the moment I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, that God removes my free will. (Huh!! What on earth is he talking about?) If I correctly understand your theology, you beleive that once you accept Jesus, you are eternally secure. To me, that means God has removed your free will to accept any other master. In other words, you have chosen Jesus and now you have no free will choice to change your mind. I think that is the difference between us. I don't believe God ever removes man's free will. WalkOnWater | ||
| Ardyj Registered user Username: Ardyj Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2006  |
Yes, I have Salvation. The marvelous Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ died the horrible death of the cross for my sins. I love Him with all my being. There are no if's, and's, but's or small print. I'm being rather blunt, but if there's small print involved, I cannot see that the sacrifice of the Cross has been totally and unconditionally accepted. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 315 Registered: 6-2001  |
I have heard this "work out your own salvation" argument before, and I don't understand how it means "work for your own salvation." To me, when I hear "work out" I hear "exercise." This is more consistent to the whole of Paul's letters. We are supposed to use or "exercise" the power of the salvation that God gives us with fear and trembling, because we have the power of God at our disposal. Logically, Hannah | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1250 Registered: 7-2003  |
WalkOnWater, I believe you have just revealed a fatal misunderstadning in SDA theology. SDAs deny the reality of the human spirit and therefore they do not understand the significance of the New Birth. Eternal Security is not a question of free will, but one of having a regenerated spirit and becoming a new man that is now a child of God. I think it might be helpful to start by discussing how we are saved. Are we saved by or through anything we do or is salvation purely a gift of God? I believe the testimony of scripture is that salvation is not dependent upon anything we do, but upon a sovereign act of God.
How do we go from our dead state to being made alive in Christ? What is this sovereign act of God that saves us? Jesus explains this to Nicodemus in the Gospel of John.
So we've all been born once "of flesh" or "of water" (a reference to the breaking of the water at child birth). However, if this is the only birth we ever experience, then we cannot see the kingdom of God. We must also experience a new birth of the Spirit. Unless we are born of the Spirit we cannot enter the kingdom. It is the regeneration of our dead spirit that is the sovereign act of God. We cannot do this nor could we ever merit such a new birth. It is a gracious gift of God. There are all sorts of people out there that think that getting dunked in the baptismal tank and showing up at church every Sunday means they're saved. It does not. Getting wet, attending church, or anything else you might do cannot save you. If you haven't experienced the new birth then you're just playing religion. If you have experienced the new birth then you have entered the Kingdom of God. It's just that simple. Without a sovereign act of God regenerating your spirit, you remain spiritually dead and lost no matter how many good things you might say or do. I would guarantee that there are people like this in nearly every single church you walk into. They think they are Christians and they do all the right things, but in the end Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you." They have not been reborn and will not enter the Kingdom. All of their good works and religious deeds are worthless in terms of salvation or merit. What about those who have been given the gift of spiritual regeneration? When we are given spiritual birth, our spirit is then able to commune with God who is pure spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells us permanently as a PLEDGE or a guarantee of our salvation.
God Himself establishes us in Christ and guarantees us the PROMISE of salvation by sealing us with the Holy Spirit. We actually become a POSSESSION of God. We now have an inheritance as sons and daughters of the King, heirs to the Kingdom.
Walk, once youíve been born again, you canít be unborn. Once you have become a son or daughter of God you are always a son or daughter of God. God will not disown you because you are already perfect in Christ, not by your own merit, but by the merit of Christís perfect life, death, and resurrection. You have been sealed forever by the indwelling presence of the third person of the Triune God. God cannot reject Himself. The Father can never reject the Son or the Spirit, therefore He cannot reject you when you are in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit. Jesus assured the disciples of this in very strong definite language.
In fact, when we are brought to faith in Christ through the regeneration of our spirit, it can truly be said that we have ALREADY passed from death to life. We have eternal life now! Itís a present reality!!!
In the book of Romans we are given Godís unbreakable eternal golden chain. This is Godís absolute guarantee that He will sovereignly save those who are His and that we will be glorified with Him. In fact, this is so sure that the Apostle Paul even uses the prophetic past-tense of ìglorifiedî even though we have not yet experienced glorification.
Itís a sure thing! Nothing will separate Godís Elect from Christ.
The names of Godís Elect have been written in the Book of Life since before the foundation of the world. This cannot change. The Bible never says that any of the elect have EVER had their names removed. As SDAs we often had Revelation 3:5 presented to us as a threat. It is not a threat! It is a gracious and assuring promise to believers. Please read this text with new eyes letting the SDA filters fall away. This is an absolute promise that as a believer in Christ your name will NOT be erased from the Book of Life.
A believer is eternally secure in Christ and He will confess your name before the God the Father. What an amazing and comforting promise! Believers stand before God, forever perfect in His eyes because of what the Son has done.
Believers are still being made holy, in a practicle sense, on a daily basis by the indwelling presence and power of the Spirit. However, we are eternally secure because of Christ. We are perfect forever not based on anything we do or donít do, but based on the perfect sacrifice of Christ. This is why we say that Christ is our true and ultimate rest. We have peace in Him knowing that absolutely nothing can ever remove us from His hand. We are His possession. It's not about our free will, it's about His sovereign act resulting in our regenerated spirit and His Spirit dwelling within us. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1500 Registered: 7-2003 |
Beautifully stated, Chris. Good to see you again! How glad I am that I cannot 'unsave' myself. How would one know when one has 'sinned' enough to have lost your salvation? Is it the one I just committed or the next one I commit? I used to hear that from my ex all the time...here he is, living in an immoral relationship, and he dared to condemn me for worshipping God on Sunday as the unpardonable sin. He thought he was so righteous for 'keeping the sabbath' that nothing else he did really mattered the other 6 days of the week. Paul said, "all my righteousness is as filthy rags". If he's got filthy rags righteousness, I don't have a chance. Not a thing I can do to make me 'good enough'. I beat up on myself considerably less now that I finally get what that means. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 677 Registered: 8-2004  |
Amen Chris! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2943 Registered: 3-2004  |
Chris-glad to see you here again. I always like what you write. Melissa, I am like you that I cannot unsave myself. So, I am thankful that Jesus is there so I do not worry about that. I just trust Him and His word. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 851 Registered: 4-2000  |
Walkonwater, Once we are saved (eternally secure in Christ), we do not lose our ability to make choices. At the point of regeneration, our choices suddenly align with God's will. As the late Adrian Rogers used to say, "God changes our WANTER." For example, on the road to Damascus, God called Paul in a most dramatic way. Suddenly, Paul's choices were God's choices. He was never the same again. Regeneration always precedes faith. "We do not believe in order to be be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe." (excerpt from CHOSEN BY GOD by R. C. Sproul, p. 73) Interestingly, those who have problems understanding how God saves fallen man without removing his freedom of choice, seem to have no problem that in heaven the redeemed will have no bent toward evil and no devil to tempt them. Actually, I have never heard of Christians complaining that God will make humans like robots in heaven. Yet, all those in heaven have been regenerated, glorified, and their "wanter" forever changed. In their glorified state, they will forever make the right choices. In awe of His grace, Dennis Fischer | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 270 Registered: 11-2004 |
Walk on Water, WOW said "I think that is the difference between us. I don't believe God ever removes man's free will." I agree with you partially. I do believe that mankind has free will. A person is free to give back the gift of salvation if they chose to do so. Now, I do not believe a person's sins or works can unqualify them for salvation as Adventists teach. We have been made righteous. We have passed from death into life. When we stand before the throne our works are not what is judged to determine that we are saved because we stand before God in the righteousness of Jesus. I believe the only way I could lose my salvation is if I intentially give back the gift of salvation and take off the robe of righteousness that was so graciously given to me. Does this happen? Maybe, but I'm sure it it quite rare. The Bible says in Hebrews 6 says "4For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, 5And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, 6If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace." | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 271 Registered: 11-2004 |
Dennis said "As the late Adrian Rogers used to say, "God changes our WANTER." That is so true Dennis! God changes our heart as we grow in Him so we no longer have the desires to do things that are not pleasing to Him. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2184 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, That is one of the best and clearest statements on salvation I have seen in awhile, with clear scriptures to back up every statement you made. That gospel is very different from Adventism, and is the true gospel as taught by Jesus and the apostles, as well as the true gospel revived in the Reformation by Calvin and Luther. You have beautifully stated the doctrines of sovereign grace and the monergistic salvation that results. And good to see you back Chris! Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2185 Registered: 3-2005 |
U2, I must ask you what the real difference in your view of salvation and the SDA view that WOW is stating? Here is a quote from your post: "I agree with you partially. I do believe that mankind has free will. A person is free to give back the gift of salvation if they chose to do so. Now, I do not believe a person's sins or works can unqualify them for salvation as Adventists teach. We have been made righteous. We have passed from death into life. When we stand before the throne our works are not what is judged to determine that we are saved because we stand before God in the righteousness of Jesus. I believe the only way I could lose my salvation is if I intentially give back the gift of salvation and take off the robe of righteousness that was so graciously given to me. Does this happen? Maybe, but I'm sure it it quite rare." ------------------------------------------------- this view U2 is just a variation on a theme, and is just another point on the spectrum of salvation that involves some of man's contribution with his free will. This is the Roman Catholic view as well as the SDA view, and sadly most of evangelical Christianity today also holds some form of synergistic salvation. I would only suggest that everyone read Chris' post above thoroughly and see how different what Chris is talking about, than what a lot of SDAs, RCC's and even evangelicals believe. I didn't realize this clear difference until eight years out of Adventism, but this is a clear and important difference. There are many churches today just like SDA who have altar calls every week, and they also teach clearly that you can gain your salvation by going forward one week, and then you can lose your salvation the next Saturday night--Just read some of the pietistic writings that existed during the time Ellen borrowed from other like-minded folks. A clear example of this is cited by Michael Horton as he related his own experience in his evangelical church growing up, and it was not Adventist. This idea of falling in and out of grace is just contrary to the gospel. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2186 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is a quote from Michael Horton's book "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace": "I was raised in a solid Christian home, with the nurture of daily devotions and the simple piety of believing parents, they offered me a warm, supportive meaningful environment. But in my teenage years, the same cliches, slogans, and experiences which had provided a sense of being "in" and of belonging to a group, began to appear shallow and trite. The rules which I had never questioned began to choke me. My Christian school became my prison. In my senior year in High School, I had a Bible instructor who took particular delight in enumerating the things for which we could be lost. If, for instance we were to die with an unconfessed sin, we would be eternally lost. The implications haunted me, and since I knew I was not good enough, it continued to have a serious effect. What if I screwed up some Saturday night and Jesus came back before I could walk down the aisle on Sunday AGAIN! What if I couldn't remember a particular sin in order to confess it? There were so many ways I could lose my soul!" ------------------------------------------------ Now, Michael Horton didn't grow up Adventist, but in an "evangelical" church, but from reading the above quote, doesn't that experience sound identical to your experience in Adventism? It did mine. I only bring this up so as to be aware of the lack of good teaching on Justification by faith alone. Many in Christendom don't understand the true gospel of grace that Chris stated so well above. Stan | ||
| Borgch Registered user Username: Borgch Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2006 |
WOW, I would agree that I CAN say that, 'I am saved'. In fact, I think I WILL SAY IT... right now: "I AM SAVED, I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!" Praise Jesus our Lord and Savior! Ah... Yeah.... That nevers ceases to make my soul leap for joy! Dennis, you make some excellent points. I especially like the quote of Adrian Rogers that you brought up about how "God changes our WANTER". I love Adrian Rogers. (Can you just imagine how much he is enjoying being with the Lord right now?!!) After I was born again I really began to learn to trust Jesus to 'change my wanter'--and the more and more I learn to trust Him and to see the effects of Him 'changing my wanter', the more and more I want absolutely none of my old 'wanter'! Unfortunately, everyone I've met that is on the outside of this phenomenon can't really see how it is a good thing--nor can they see how it is not a violation of free will. Christians counter this humbuggery by asserting that submission of our wills to the Father and asking Him to change our wanters is, in paradoxical reality, the route to ultimate freedom!--It's part of that whole 'losing our lives to gain them' concept that Jesus taught. But this will never make sense to non-believers since, 'the preaching of the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing' 1 Cor. 1:18. I think that this phenomenon of God changing our 'wanters' is, perhaps, one of the things that the outside world can see in Christians--but that it is also one of the things that really scares them about committing their lives to Christ. Paul talks near the end of Galatians about how he became dead to the world and the world became dead to him. And what worldly person would want to be dead to the world?! After saying these things, I must admit that I can't really understand exactly how God causes us to pass over from death into life, but it never ceases to amaze me how He can continue to pull people out of this world and into His Kingdom! God is Eternal Love! Jesus is Life! --Chad | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 272 Registered: 11-2004 |
Stan said "I must ask you what the real difference in your view of salvation and the SDA view that WOW is stating?" From my understanding Adventists believe that you can become lost if you sin or do not do the works you are supposed to do. My belief is not along those lines. We cannot lose our salvation. We have gone from death to life and have been grafted into the vine. We are one with Him. Will He cast us away if we sin or do not do the works we should? No way! But I do have the option to sever the branch from the vine. God will never reject us, but we do have the free choice to change our allegiance and reject Him as the Hebrews 4 text (previously quoted) states. We are justified by faith alone, by our faith in Him. I know you do not agree with that Stan, but I do not find any Biblical evidence that faith equals works. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4840 Registered: 12-2003  |
Chris, thank you for your wonderful statement of salvation! It's awfully good to see you again! All I can say is Praise God that He has opened a new, living way to the Father (Heb. 10:20), that He has rescued me from the domain of darkness and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13), that He has brought my dead spirit to life (Eph 2:1-4), that He has sealed me by placing His Spirit within me as a GUARANTEE of what is to come (Eph 1:13-14), and that in Jesus I have passed from death to life and I will not be condemned (John 5:24), and that nothingónot even deathócan separate me from His love (Romans 8: 30-32)! I am still amazed at being able actually to feel love for Jesus! He is everything. Colleen | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2006 |
Even if we could thrash this subject out until we could all agree on exactly what salvation is, it would not have moved us one step closer to having it. In fact I have seen a number of people involved in heavy debate move further from salvation instead of closer to it. There is a place for spirited debate. However one must always remember that debate leaves the orphanes uncared for and the hungry still hungry and the thirsty still thirsty. When Jesus comes again he does not check the web to see what great debaters we were. If our salvation was genuine, He will find us helping the down trodden and needy. Jesus warned that we are not to be only hearers (and debators) of the word but we are to be "doers" as well. If hearing and debating do not lead us to being a "doer", then our hearing and debating are worthless. Our actions reveal if we really have salvation. WalkOnWater |
