| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 210 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hello everybody! I'm studying the women issue at the moment, and I've stumbled upon a pretty good resource, a DVD set called "Women in Ministry - Silenced or Set Free" its made by a Cult ministry and I find it excellent, good exegesis. Read more about it here: http://strivetoenter.com/wim/ I was wondering how SDA look upon the Women in Ministry? What are the official standpoint of SDA? What are your experiences in this matter? Jesus your love surrounds me! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4838 Registered: 12-2003  |
Adventists will not ordain women as fully credentialed pastors. They plead that the "world church" is not ready to handle the ordination of women, even though North America might be. Within Adventism, particularly in more liberal or academic environments, many Adventists agitate for women's ordination. (After all, the church is built on the work of a false prophetess!) There is no consensus, however. Underlying the ongoing debate over ordination (which gets actually pretty heated, with the conservative opponents and the "progressive" proponents often getting very polarized and upset with each other) is a fairly generalized view that Paul's teaching on male headship and women's submission is "culturally biased" and must be re-interpreted for today's society. There is a fairly widespread lack of understanding of or respect for the unique strengths of manhood and womanhood. Within professional Adventist circles, there's a subtle but profound attempt to equalize men and women, a sort-of move towards androgeny. It's not statedóand indeed, I didn't see it nearly so clearly until I left the church and looked back from the persepctive of being in an evangelical setting where the differences between men and women are more respected and celebratedóand both men and women are valued and honored in ways neither is within Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2183 Registered: 3-2005 |
Wayne Grudem has just come out with a new book on women in ministry, and he documents how liberalism is invading the evangelical church thru this issue. Here is the link to a review of Grudem's new book: http://albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2006-10-23 | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 214 Registered: 4-2006 |
Just finished watching "Women in Ministry - Silenced or Set Free?" and I must say it has been a thril, they are really doing some fine exegesis and it is no wonder that the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has choosen to not to try to refute the video and have said that they will just agree to disagree. The case for Women in Ministry is pretty strong. If you haven't seen these DVD's I urge you to do so, you will be amazed. Christ you are my love! | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 215 Registered: 4-2006 |
Riverfonz, oh that book sounds a bit way off in my opinion. "First, biblical inerrancy is abandoned. Then, in turn, the denomination endorses the ordination of women, rejects biblical teaching on male leadership in marriage, sidelines pastors who are opposed to the ordination of women, approves homosexual conduct as morally valid in at least some cases, ordains homosexuals, and elects homosexuals to "high leadership positions in the denomination."" Its putting ordination of women in a category which leads to homosexuality in the church and denying the bible as inerrant ... WOW! I think that man is deluded in regard to this. Women as well as men can teach sound doctrine and the inerrancy of the Bible. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 479 Registered: 7-2000 |
MWH, the qualifications to teach and shepherd the church are found in Timothy and Titus. If you believe the Bible is inerrant, I'd like for you to show me where those qualifications include women. Further, the same arguments that are used for womens' ordination are the same as that for homsexuals. Both are based on a flawed approach to the Bible. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 216 Registered: 4-2006 |
Loneviking, first of all I would refer you to the DVD set, it explains these passages very well. 4 DVD's with more than 3‡ hours of teaching, I will try to answer your question. I'm not perticulary sure of which pages you are refering to, so I will guess. "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." 1 Timothy 2:11-12 The above passage is aparently speaking about A perticular woman en the congregation, which taught false doctrine, she should of course not be allowed to teach. This argument is based on vers 15, which seems to refer to this woman and her husband. To really see this case you will have to dive into the Greek text. I'm not sure of what you are pointing to in Titus. PS What qualifications does women lack in teaching men? As I experience on this forum, women are teaching men, I've been receiving lots of teaching here, especially from Colleen (thanks). | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2188 Registered: 3-2005 |
Just look at every denomination that ordains women including SDAs--just look where they end up. If anyone can show me a denomination who ordains women that also holds to the inerrancy of scripture and doesn't get way off into doctrinal error, then show it to me. Wayne Grudem is very balanced in his theology, and has a truly biblical approach to this. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2189 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is another interesting perspective on 1 Timothy 2:12 here at this link: http://jimhamilton.wordpress.com/2006/09/02/may-women-teach-men-at-church/ Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2190 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is an article on this subject written by Wayne Grudem who is part of the Council on biblical manhood and womanhood: http://www.efbt100.com/ Stan | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 217 Registered: 4-2006 |
I think that Wayne Grudem is wrong on this issue, also I would like to point out that the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has decided not to refute the set of DVD's that teaches that Women too can teach men. The author of the DVD set has made an audio available where she answer the challenges against women teaching the bible to men that the Watchtower makes as well as the challenges from some Christian pastors that were not covered by the DVD set. http://www.womensministry.info/audio/jehovahs_women_on_trial.mp3 It's free, go get it boys and girls  Jesus you are so awesome, liberating everybody in you, slaves, women, men, jews and gentiles! | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 280 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Mwh! I appreciate that link. Regarding the issue of women I wonder how the words in Galations "8 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." were received. Imagine how they would be received now in the Middle East. Also, I think about how Jesus broke the rules. He talked with the woman at the well when it was not culturally okay to do so. Deborah was a prophetess and a the leader of the Isrealites. Philip had 4 daughters that prophesied. The Bible says that he who prophecies edifies the church. Personally, I believe if God calls someone to the ministry (male or female) that I should not question that calling. Just some thoughts | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 218 Registered: 4-2006 |
Riverfonz, I asked around to find some Churches whichs ordains women and teach sound doctrine as well, here is a reply I got: "I do not have a full list of the churches/denominations that ordain women but below are links to a couple of denominations that are good examples of those who hold to the inerrancy of scripture and are not off into doctrinal error. The first two links below are for the Christian Reformed Church. The first link is regarding their beliefs and the second their position on women. http://www.crcna.org/pages/beliefs.cfm http://www.crcna.org/pages/positions_women_office.cfm These next two links are for the Evangelical Covenant Church with the first link below their affirmations regarding the word of God, etc and the next link their position on women in ministry. http://www.covchurch.org/affirmations http://www.covchurch.org/ministry/departmental-ministries/women-in-ministry I think that these two denominations are good examples of churches that hold tightly to God's word. There are also many others including my own denomination. I hope that helps you out in your forum discussion. Once again, thanks for the kind remarks! It is so good for me to continue to get good feedback. This encouragement helps me out when I get tarred and feathered by those who hold to tradition and refuse to allow women to operate in their God-given gifts. The one thing that is most interesting is that since the release of WIM in February 2006 (with CBMW and John MacArthur receiving the first copies of the DVD set) no one yet has been able to refute the biblical exegesis. It greatly saddens me that the "experts" in complementarianism are unable to refute the material in WIM, yet they continue to charge me and every other woman who teaches the bible to men as being in sin. Recently one Pastor told me that if I don't repent of teaching the bible to men by the time I die I will go to hell. To this point he has been unable to refute WIM and he has obtained another 4 copies to give to other apologists and pastors hoping they will be able to help him refute me. Other Pastors who are more open to "testing all things and holding fast to what is good" have changed their views on women because of the exegesis in WIM. I sure wished that everyone was as open as they have been. It is time that the church values each member in their gifts whether they are men or women." | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 160 Registered: 7-2005  |
Stan wrote: "If anyone can show me a denomination who ordains women that also holds to the inerrancy of scripture and doesn't get way off into doctrinal error, then show it to me." My PCUSA local congregation has women elders and teachers, but does not subscribe to the General Assembly's efforts to ordain homosexuals and deny the inerrancy of Scripture. So the umbrella organization has gotten off into the wierd stuff, but the many local PCUSA congretations are able to hold to ordaining women while rejecting the ordaining of homosexuals. The one does not necessarily lead to the other. Honestwitness | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2194 Registered: 3-2005 |
All I can say is that the Chrisian Reformed church has gone off in more liberal directions. Some PCA congregations have become Christian Reformed, so that women can be elders and teach. Paul never sanctioned women elders. He always spoke of elders as men. As far as the PCUSA goes, their liberal history is quite evident. Honest, does your conservative congregation allow senior pastors? Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2196 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mwh, Does the DVD you refer to answer Wayne Grudem's six key questions as posted in this article?: http://www.the-highway.com/Openletter.html Here is Grudem's opening paragraph: Dear Egalitarian Friends, "We know that many of you within the evangelical world hold your views because you have been convinced that egalitarianism is what the Bible teaches. You tell us that our differences on male and female roles are just differences in interpretation, and that Bible-believing Christians can honestly and fairly interpret the Bible to support complete equality in most or all roles for men and women in the family and the church. You say that you are sincere in adopting your views not because of modern cultural pressures but because you think that the Bible itself supports your position. In response to this, we want to say that we appreciate your sincerity in these matters and we believe that you are telling us the truth about your motives. There are, nevertheless, certain questions of fact that come up frequently in your writings. We focus on these specific questions in this letter because they do not involve detailed arguments about interpretation, but involve only matters of factual data. We are simply asking to see the evidence that has convinced you about certain key interpretations of Scripture passages. If you can point out this evidence to us, then we will be able to understand more fully how you have come to your understanding of key passages. But if you cannot point out this evidence, and if no one among you can point out this evidence, then we respectfully ask that you reconsider your interpretations of these passages." ------------------------------------------------- Stan | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 219 Registered: 4-2006 |
"All I can say is that the Chrisian Reformed church has gone off in more liberal directions." Riverfonz Can you please explain this? What liberal directions are you talking about? "Some PCA congregations have become Christian Reformed, so that women can be elders and teach. Paul never sanctioned women elders. He always spoke of elders as men." Riverfonz What pasages in the Bible do you refer to? | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 220 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hello everybody! You can have a free preview of Women in Ministry (WIM) here: http://www.macgregorministries.org/video/WIM_intro.wmv Jesus loves you! | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 221 Registered: 4-2006 |
"Does the DVD you refer to answer Wayne Grudem's six key questions as posted in this article?: http://www.the-highway.com/Openletter.html" Riverfonz I believe the DVD Set answers some of thoes six key questions. I would recommend you to study the DVD Set and the above audio file very carefully, laying aside preconceived ideas and having a fresh look at the scriptures. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 222 Registered: 4-2006 |
Riverfonz, when I read this sentence at the end of the article: "This article is taken from The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood" I'm pretty sure that the DVD Set answer all of the six key questions, since TCOBMW has chosen not to refute the teaching on the DVD Set. |
