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U2bsda
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Post Number: 285
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW,

I'm surprised that you don't believe the epistles are inspired. So you only believe the words in red are inspired?
Walkonwater
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Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

U2, When and where did I say that the Epistles are not inspired?

Of course they are inspired. What is not inspired is your reading of them and my reading of them.

We both read the same words and come up with different conclusions.

What I am saying is that we must always interpret the Epistles (and anything else we read) based on Christ's perfect WILL. Where many people get into error is when they try to change Jesus' WILL based on their interpretation of whatever they are reading.

That is wrong even if you are using the Epistles.

But, YES, the Epistles are inspired!

WalkOnWAter
U2bsda
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW said "But we must always interpret Paul by what is in Jesusí WILL. We have no right to change Jesusí WILL by our interpretation of Paul or anyone else.

In other words, we must never use scripture to interpret what is in the WILL. Instad, we must interpret Scripture by fully understanding what is in the WILL of Christ. "

I assumed you did not believe the epistles were inspired because you gave the Epistles a lower standing than the Gospels. 2 Timothy 3 says "16Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),"

By what standard do you use to determine Christ's perfect will? Did not the apostles write the Gospels and the epistles? Jesus was talking to Jews. The epistles were written to the church.

What conclusion do you come to with Galatians 3? ""24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
Agapetos
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Post Number: 441
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi WoW,

Thanks for answering the post I'd written to Formers on here. I'm glad you appreciated it, however, I am a little disappointed that you didn't respond to the posts I'd tried to call your attention to earlier, particularly about the 7th day in Genesis.

Understand that I am trying to promote love and the very clear gospel of God's grace here, and I want all my family here (and these people here are part of my family in Christ) to stay focused, just like I pray they help me stay focused, too. At the same time, I hope it's clear that I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, if people write pointed questions to you, it's probably a good thing to show honesty by answering them directly. (I'll give you an example & opportunity to do this in a moment).

I want to also make it clear that I was born of the Spirit (or "born again") while in Adventism in 1998. Many of us were born again in Adventism, and yes, sometimes we do seem to forget it. At the same time---do not miss this point---our forgetfulness is peanuts compared to the things that Ellen White wrote. She has left a legacy of legalistic writings, abusive comments, Scriptural misuse/neglect/twisting, and anti-Gospel theology. And this anti-Gospel legacy of writings is officially sanctioned by the Adventist church as "prophetic" and important for everyone in the last days.

There is absolutely no excuse for allowing such an abusive legacy to persist in the Adventist denomination. Her writings (and those who adhere to them) continue to enslave Adventists and obscure the light of the Gospel from their eyes. What hinders and opposes the Gospel must be removed. It is true not only personally, but corporately. The Catholic church needed a "reformation", and in no less drastic measure the Adventist church is in the same desperate need of a "reformation".

Again, what hinders and opposes the Gospel must be removed, not only for the sake of the children God cares about, but also for the sake of being honest before God and fearing the Lord. God will not put up with such abuse of His children forever, nor the misuse of His name. It is time for us all to be honest and repent before God of everything that we have done to cloud His loving good news about His Son. It's time for us to care about the truth more than we care about our heritage, our institutions, our reputation, our legacy, and especially more than our pride.

*****

Okay, now for a specific topic and a few questions.

But you'll need to get your Bible out. If you don't open your Bible, then there is no use replying. I recommend comparing between a modern translation (such as NIV, NASB, etc.) and an older one... KJV is good for that. (If you don't have access, then I recommend using this website: http://www.biblegateway.com/ )

You brought up the idea of Christ's "last will and testament". This is ironic, but come with me on a journey as we further examine what those words mean...

*****

1) Do you know why the Bible's two divisions are named "the Old Testament" and the "New Testament"?

(See 2 Corinthians 3:14 & 3:6, and Hebrews 9:15)

Read in KJV first and then in a modern translation.

*****

Hebrews 9:15-17 gives a clear description of the "last will & testament" concept you mentioned. However it says that God had a "first" and a "second". Yes, "two" wills, so to speak.

2) What was the "first" will?

(See Hebrews 9:1-4... and take careful note of the end of verse 4. Then compare with Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13. This is the "first will". What is it?)

*****

Scripture, then, shows that there are "two wills" or "two testaments". There is another, clearer word that Scripture uses, but I'll leave that for you to discover. Now the question:

3) Which "will" is in effect for us? The first? The last? Or both?

(See Hebrews 8:6-7, 8:13 & 10:9-10 and 2nd Corinthians 3:6-16)

*****

You wrote that Jesus taught "what the Sabbath was for". If you have read questions #1-3 and searched the Scriptures, then you can see how the Bible defines the "first will" and the "second will". Now, kind of a tricky question:

4) When did the "second will" go into effect?

(See Hebrews 9:15-17 and Luke 22:20)

Note: It is important to recognize the difference between teachings and actions. Yes, I know we teach by our actions, but not always. For example, Jesus' parents offered sacrifices for Him at the temple after He was circumcised (see Luke 2). Are we to do the same thing with our children? "A pair of doves or two young pigeons?" Also, Jesus kept Passover with His disciples (Luke 22). Are we to "keep Passover" too? It involves a bit more than bread & grape juice! What I'm saying is that there is a context to peoples' actions, and we need to responsibly examine the context to see what Jesus clearly "taught", what He "taught by example", and what He did because of the times He was in.

*****

Final question:

5) What was the Sabbath "for" according to Colossians 2:16-17?

*****

I apologize for the long post and if it will take some time to answer, but I hope that in appreciation of the courtesy I showed you by trying to restrain myself & my fellow Formers from devouring you alive (haha), I pray that since you appreciated it, that you will courteously respond to the five questions I've asked of you.

Blessings & love in Christ,
Ramone
Agapetos
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Post Number: 443
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susans,

I just read through back to the beginning of this thread and realized that this is your thread! Well, I know none of us "own" threads here and we're free to post, but I feel bad that the thread started with your wonderful story -- the story of how Jesus led you out of death and to Himself -- but then detoured to where we're at now.

I think when I looked at the "Last Week" or "Last Day" page, I confused this thread with the similar titled one by WalkOnWater. My bad, Susan, I should've read better.

But anyway, I wanted to say thank you for sharing your story, that I'm blessed by what God has done in your life, and that I'm blessed to hear Him expressing Himself through you, His beloved bride.

*****

Chris! Thank you for what you wrote, particularly about Revelation 3:5! Woohoo! Hallelu Yah!!
91steps
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Post Number: 123
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walkonwater, I too keep the Seventh day Sabbath, and I won't go into details, it is my belief that is the day we are supposed to worship. But, I DO NOT have an issue with anywho who worships on another day. Like I told a good Baptist friend of mine who I served with in the Military, we Veterans would be hypocrites if we told people what day they should worship on, because of our service to our Country we afford EVERYONE the right to worship how and when they want.
Snowboardingmom
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Post Number: 200
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WalkOnWater,
I want to apologize for the "tone" of my last post to you; because of the percieved "tone", I'm afraid the thought and message behind it was lost. In all honesty, the passion or intensity behind the post was a result of my own "Praise-God-ness-feeling" that there is absolutely nothing I have done to earn salvation. As I've thought about your response since I read it yesterday morning, I've had to really look into myself this past 24 hours. I am very aware that a part of that intensity may be a result of a heightened sensitivity to the subject since I find myself defending this fact to my SDA family and friends on a constant basis. But I want to make it very clear to you, that my post was not meant as an attack to you. It was really an over exuberance over the subject.

I still stand by the fact that our actions don't reveal if I really have salvation or not. I am a sinner, imperfect, doomed, never able to be good enough to reveal such a gift as salvation. But God has given Himself up as a sacrifice for me. He changes that imperfect, doomed, pitiful me by clothing me in His righteousness. He gives me His Holy Spirit to live in me so that I am literally changed. I am a new creature. ONLY by His Spirit are we able to do His will. It's nothing of me. I have absolutely nothing to offer to Him but my submission. As I said earlier, once we're His, it's never about our actions again.

And I say praise God for that! If it were about my actions, there would be no hope for me. This is a fact I am extremely grateful for. It humbles me to my knees, but at the same time it brings out an excitement that makes me want to shout it out. And unfortunately, that "excitement" can come on pretty strongly.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22, 23). I love how "fruit" is singular compared with the plural "deeds" used in vs.19 of the same chapter.

It's all about God, and what He's done. There is nothing I can contribute -- try as I might sometimes!

I know this is completely off subject now (sorry Ramone, I don't mean to pull off onto an old thought!). I just wanted to clarify the reason and thought behind all that "intensity" of my earlier post.

Okay, back onto the current discussion. I want to respect Ramone, and agree with him, that we should stay focused. Just had to get this off my chest :-).

Grace
Susans
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Post Number: 42
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone,

No worries, my Christian brother. I was the one who began this thread by telling my story of how God has led me in and out of the SDA church. My story is not unique, countless others have had the same, or similar experiences, as well as those who left from individual Bible study and the Spirit's calling.

The gospel is scandalous, as you have stated above. Please don't apologize for posting on what you considered the "wrong" thread. God works out all things, my story, your story, Walk's story, to His glory. I have been blessed by what has been written here. It's strengthened my faith in the Saviour I call my Lord. What glorious truths about God's sovereignty, His grace, His truth has been shared both here and in this thread! I truly believe that God has used this thread to have the wonderful truth of the gospel spelled out clearly here one more time. For me, this thread has brought many issues concerning salvation and our walk with Christ into one place. I thank you for posting here! Every day I learn more and more the wonders and glory of God. I have security in Jesus, which I personally did not have soon after becoming a member of the SDA church. My joy of my salvation had left me, and what remained was my having to "work" to stay saved. Even as a happy Adventist the second time around, I was happy because I thought I was doing all the right "working" with God to be a partaker in His salvation.

I may have continued this way had I not moved to the small church in Washington where the pastor carried his stacks of red books into the pulpit and the abusive legacy of Ellen White felt so oppressive to me. For whatever reason, God, in His perfect timing, chose that place to bring me out of the darkness and into His glorious light, to remove the veil from my heart, and to show me what it was to be "in Christ". It changed me forever.

Others who are seeking or questioning are reading this thread and are blessed as well. How can I say this with certainty? Because I read here myself for many years without posting. And I know at least one person (Colleen) but I'm pretty confident all of you realize that what is being said here is observed by more than just we who have participated in the discussion. All heaven is watching, because where two or more are gathered in His name, we know He is in the midst of us!

I praise Him for His goodness and mercy who has saved such a one as me!

Walkonwater
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Post Number: 48
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I apologize.

I must be doing a very poor job of communicating this idea of Last Will and Testament. Let me try it in outline form. Perhaps that will be easier to understand.

Truth One
By the time of His death Jesus had established the complete foundation of the Christian Church. That Foundation is His Last Will and Testament.

Truth Two
When Jesus died, nothing could be added to or taken from the WILL. It is illegal to tamper with someoneís WILL.

Truth Three
All of Scripture is in perfect harmony with the Foundation Jesus laid.
The Old Testament has the gospel ENFOLDED.
The New Testament has the Gospel UNFOLDED.

Truth Four
The Scripture is entirely at harmony with itself but human beings are not. We read the same words and come to different conclusions. (For example, I may interpret Paul one way and you interpret him another way.)

Truth Five
In trying to resolve this disharmony between us we must always test our understanding by comparing it to the Foundation Jesus laid. We must NEVER test the Foundation by our interpretation. (That would be tampering with the WILL.)

For example, if a text in Paulís writings appears to say the law has been done away with, we must test that against Jesusí Foundation.

We ask, ěIs there anywhere Jesus said He came to throw out the Law?î The answer is No!
He said he came to ěfulfill itî but not to discard it.
If I drive 55 in a 55 zone, I have ěfulfilledî the law, Iím doing what the law is telling me to do. But, by driving 55, I have not discarded that law from the law books.

Truth Six
All clear thinking about Bible interpretation begins above with Truth One.

WalkOnWater
--------------------------------------
TenBLo˙@hotmail.com
Walkonwater
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Post Number: 49
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I already see an objection someone might make to my six point outline.

In Truth Two I say, "When Jesus died, nothing could be added to or taken from the WILL."

Somone might say, "After Jesus went back to heaven, a great deal was added to Christianity." For example, the organization of the Church, elders, deacons, etc. was added.

In addition the following were added...
How to handle offerings
How best to witness
What a church service was like
The defining of doctrine
And tons more was added.

So how can you say nothing can be added or taken away?

My response is that as long as all those things are done in harmony with the Foundation Jesus laid, that would NOT be tampering with the WILL.

But when someone, for example, turns a Church into something to glorify self instead of Jesus, then that is tampering with the WILL. That is ripping Jesus' Foundation apart.

So Jesus' Foundation must never be moved or changed. And as long as church growth and structure and doctrine is based squarly on that foundation, then it is in line with the WILL and is totally acceptable.

But the moment one tries to add something that is in conflict with the WILL, that is forbidden.

WalkOnWater
Riverfonz
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk,

Here is what Jesus said about what would be to come after He was resurrected and ascended:

12"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (John 16:12-16 ESV)

So, there was so much more to be said.

Paul said He got his revelation directly from Jesus Himself in Galatians one, so therefore Jesus would have corrected Paul if he wrote things in Galatians or Collossians that would explain better the New Covenant, and the fact that Jesus Himself is our Sabbath rest. All these concepts were developed by special revelation.

Stan
Walkonwater
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One last clarification, PLEASE.

When I said, "If a text in Paul's writings appears to say the law is done away with...", I am not saying that Paul is wrong and Jesus is right. In fact I am saying the opposite.

I am saying Paul and Jesus are in TOTAL HARMONY!!!

If there is an apparent contradiction between Paul and Jesus it should be an instant red flag telling us that there is something wrong with our understanding of Paul and/or Jesus.

I would appreciate your comments. What are the flaws in what I am presenting?

Thanks,

WalkOnWater
Snowboardingmom
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk,
I am not a Christian apologist (that is definitely not one of my strengths), and I know there are other people on this forum who will be better able to explain this more thoroughly. But somehow, I feel compelled to give my two cents. Maybe because this is such a fairly new insight for me, that again, I'm excited to share it. And it makes me more grounded in my knowledge and understanding to write it out (so this actually helps me!). Hopefully this makes sense.

Regarding Truth #1... (and Truth #6)

Although, while on earth, Jesus taught many principles and lessons essential to following His will, I believe the Church did not begin until AFTER His death and resurrection. Matthew 16:18, 19 seem to indicate a FUTURE time that the church will be built. His Will and Testament became binding only AFTER His death (Hebrews 9:16,17).

In order for Jesus to build His church, He had to purchase it with His blood. Without the cross there would be no body of saved people to start a church with (Acts 20:28).

In that first Pentecost after Jesus' death, the Holy Spirit was poured out to His people, indwelling them. The Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to go out and preach the Gospel, and "build" the Church starting with Jerusalem.

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone and the foundation is the apostles and the prophets (Ephesians 2:19,20). But the "beginning" of the Church wasn't until the Holy Spirit was outpoured among His people.

It's interesting to note that the major factor of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit. Which leads back to the above discussion on an understanding and distinction between the Old and the New Covenant.

Grace
Walkonwater
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Stan:

You wrote, "Paul said He got his revelation directly from Jesus Himself in Galatians one, so therefore Jesus would have corrected Paul if he wrote things in Galatians or Collossians that would explain better the New Covenant..."

Stan, Sorry but my last post hit the Forum just 5 minutes after your post. Perhaps that answers your concerns. If not, I have added a few more words about that.

I pointed out in my last post, there is total harmony between what Paul wrote and the foundation Jesus laid. All of Paul's writings were inspired by God and all are in harmony with Jesus' Foundation.

However, when we read Paul and come to different conclusions, the solution is to go to the Foundation layed by the Master, Jesus Christ and resolve our differences there.

On your first point - Remember, that laying a foundation is not the entire house. Certainly Jesus had much more to tell them. Obviously anything revealed by Jesus to Paul or anyone else would be in total harmony with the Foundation Jesus layed.

That is why we take all disagreements about Paul (or Ellen White, for that matter) back to the foundation.

Thanks for your comments,

WalkOnWater
----------------------------------------
TenBLo˙@hotmail.com
Snowboardingmom
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Post Number: 202
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To clarify -- I see the foundation of the Church as the Holy Spirit through the New Covenant.

Jesus' death fulfilled the Old, and replaced the Old with the New (Heb 8:6-13, 9:15, 10:9,10, 2Cor 3:2,3,6). Jesus really FULFILLED the Law and the Prophets (the Old Covenant) as stated in Matthew 5:17.

My understanding of this word FULFILLED has completely changed in once I started really reading the New Testament and the meaning of the New Covenant was revealed to me.

Grace
Walkonwater
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Post Number: 52
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Grace:

Thank you for your apology. Believe me I know how easy it is to get over enthusiastic about something and say things I did not really mean to say.

In your last post you raise an interesting point.

What is the foundation of the Church? You say you think it is the Holy Spirit.

I think we disagree. So this might be a perfect chance to use the Six Points I made earlier. We can see what we find using them.

Point Five tells us, "In trying to resolve this disharmony between us we must always test our understanding by comparing it to the Foundation Jesus laid.

So let's do that.

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says to Peter, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

So Jesus is telling us that He will build His church on a rock. Was that rock Peter, as some have said?

Mark 12:10 clears up that misconception by saying, "Haven't you read this scripture: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone'"

Who was the stone the builders rejected? Was it Peter? No, it was Jesus.

Of course this is not a complete exploration of the subject but it makes it clear that Jesus is the Rock, the Foundation of the Church.

The Holy Spirit supports the Foundation but our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ IS the Foundation.

With those words from Jesus (made before His death) He wrote into His Last Will and Testament that He is the Rock, The Foundation of the Church.

I appreciate you observations and questions.

WalkOnWater
Walkonwater
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace, I missed your first post (#201) so let me respond.

You said, "But the "beginning" of the Church wasn't until the Holy Spirit was outpoured among His people."

You are absolutly correct.

I am not saying that Jesus started the church during His lifetime. In fact, every single "member" of that "church", including His disciples, forsook Him. Some church!!!

You are right that the Church really started when the Holy Spirit was poured out and they went out with boldness to preach the good news.

So Jesus did not start the Church. Instead, Jesus, by His life and words, established the foundation of the church. By the time He died on Calvary, He had established everything the Church's foundation should be. That was His Last Will and Testament, written with His life, His words, and His blood.

Then, after He went back to heaven, the Holy Spirit was poured out, the Church of Jesus Christ was born, and the Apostles and converts began to build on the foundation Christ had established.

That's how I see it from this end of the telescope.

WalkOnWater (TenBLo˙@hotmail.com)


Susans
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm still interested to see your response to the questions asked of you by Ramone and his request for your courteous response.


Sincerely,
Susan
Walkonwater
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And a good day to you Susan,

Yes I am working on that. That was quite a homework assignment he gave me. I am on question 3.

God bless,

WalkOnWater (TenBLo˙@hotmail.com)
Walkonwater
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the post, 91Steps.

As you observed, it is not our job to force our beliefs on others.

WalkOnWater (TenBLo˙@hotmail.com)

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