| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 434 Registered: 10-2002  |
Don't know where the "image" discussion is going, but I thought I'd add two cents (or yen)... Mankind was made in God's image. Then Christ became flesh -- in an interesting twist, God tabernacled as a man. So you could say He became like us, that He came into our image. But our image was made after His in the first place. And then, He switched places with us, giving us His righteousness & taking our death for us. So now He makes us like Him. It's wonderfully circular! But it's all in the name, "The Second Adam". Also, some have noted that we are made in God's image... God is Three Persons, but one God. Likewise, we are three-part beings, but we are one being and are not complete until He brings us into our new bodies at the end. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 594 Registered: 7-2004  |
Just because Jesus took on a bodily form in Genesis 18 doesn't mean His normal heavenly form pre-incarnation was to have a body. Being in a body form was a means to make Himself physically present on earth, where He could be seen by humans. That's what angels have done on occasion, and yet they are clearly spirits, no body, most of the time. They are often called a man when humans see them. For example, when Mary saw two angels at Jesus' tomb, it calls them men in dazzling clothing (Luke 24:4). How else can a spirit by physically seen from our perspective unless temporarily manifested as a body? Yes, I realize Jesus ate in Genesis 18, but didn't the angels who were with Him as well? I don't see any reason to believe that Jesus had a body prior to the incarnation. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 157 Registered: 1-2004  |
Here's a bit about the subject from Justin's First Apology; Chapter LXIII.-How God Appeared to Moses. And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand." And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him." Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me." From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people." And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4856 Registered: 12-2003  |
There is obviously mystery connected with the incarnation and the existence of Jesus' body, etc. Yet I agree with Raven, that the pre-incarnate Jesus did not have a body any more than the angels do. That is something they could assume when functioning within time. John 4:24 clearly says, in reference to true worship, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." Our physical bodies were likely not the focus of our being in the image of God. Yet Jesus fully identified with us, the physical creations, by assuming a human body. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2202 Registered: 3-2005 |
I didn't mean to say that Christ was man before his incarnation, but there is something about the very personal nature of the God who appeared to Abraham, Moses, and then showed up in the fiery furnace with the three Hebrews. When God said "Let US make man in our own image", I don't see any commentary in the Bible that explains this in detail. But creating us as persons does say somthing about the wonderful personal nature of God. I won't speculate on what Christ's pre-existent form was, but these pre-incarnate appearances are interesting. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1566 Registered: 10-2004  |
Stan, I don't know where you are getting these ideas from, but I am sincerely hoping they are just left over from your background in Adventism. But what you are speculating about is getting dangerously close to Mormonism and Adventism (of course, the Mormons and SDAs say that the Father and the Son have two distinct bodies, thus making multiple gods). But God does not have a form or body. This is a very important doctrine--the incorporeality of God. In fact, it is necessary in order for God to be infinite! If we were to say that God has a body by nature, that would lower Him down to our level and make Him into a finite god! He would not be infinite! God created space, time, and matter. He is none of these, He is "trapped" by none of these, and He is outside of these. If by God's "very personal nature" you mean, as SDAs do, that God has a form--then no, that is not Biblical. "It might be partially accurate since Christ was the pre-existent eternal Son of God, second person of the Trinity, and we were created in the Image of God, of which Christ is part of that image." Actually, Christ is not just "part of that image"--He is fully God. God does not have parts, and Christ is fully God. "since God is also spirit.(John 4)" It doesn't say that God is also spirit--it says that He IS spirit! And Jesus very clearly says that, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones." (Luke 24:39 NASB.) As Raven said, even the angels came in the appearance of men and ate food in Genesis 18--but that does not mean that angels have bodies. They are called spirits, and Paul says that we do not fight against flesh and blood when we fight against fallen angels! We also can't take the symbolic language in the Bible as literal when it says that God has ears, eyes, hands, etc.--or else we would have to say that God also literally has wings and feathers (Psalm 91:4)! (See this link on hermeneutics again which discusess this a bit.) Interestingly, even the Jews have held strongly to the doctrine of the incorporeality of God:
Having come out of Adventism, I did not used to understand the importance of the doctrine of the incorporeality of God myself, but it really is dangerous heresy to say that God is corporeal. I don't mean to be "hounding" you Stan--I just have to warn you about the teaching you were speculating about. In fact, it was a form of this teaching that was part of the fatal flaw in Adventism's formulation of their belief about God. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4860 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great insight, Jeremy. You've pointed out nuances regarding God's incorporeal nature that I hadn't thought of before. Very impactingóthe Adventist's early heresy about Jesus was partially the outgrowth of their believing He had a body. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2203 Registered: 3-2005 |
John 4:24 does say God is spirit and Jesus was in the body when He said that. I take the words of Jesus at face value. But Jesus was God as both body and spirit at His incarnation. However, why did the OT give us several examples of the bodily appearance of the Lord when He spoke face to face with Abraham? How do we know all these mysteries? There is so much that we don't know. Jeremy, the Mormons don't believe that Jesus is fully God the way the SDAs do. The Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity which says that God is of one essence, three distinct, but not separate individuals---One God in three persons blessed Trinity. So am I a heretic if I just asked the question about what Jesus was like in the pre-incarnate form? That is what I asked originally jeremy, and then pointed to a direct scripture in Genesis where the pre-incarnate Christ showed up in a body and ate. Jeremy, you know I don't believe in tritheism, and I am saying that Christ is fully God, and in that sense we were created in His image, if indeed we were created in the image of God. Is there anyway to dialogue in just a little less a threatening manner, without throwing out so many accusations of heresy? Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2204 Registered: 3-2005 |
And one other point, I never said that God the Father had a body, or the Holy Spirit had a body, I was just raising the possibility that Jesus as the bodily representative of God at multiple appearances in the OT, and finally once for all as the representative for all mankind now as fully the God-man sitting at the right hand of the Father just may have existed in some kind of form that would make the statement of "Let us make man in our Image and our Likeness" even have more meaning? I don't know and don't claim to have all the answers. For some the answers are very simple. Stan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 436 Registered: 10-2002 |
Actually, I would like to jump in and say that I don't think what Stan was said or is saying was worthy of any of us freaking out about him getting heretical or anything. He wasn't talking dogmatic doctrine here, and there is some confusion over terms, and everyone's had to re-clarify what was meant by certain words. We are too jumpy here! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2205 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Ramone for that post. I don't agree with the SDA position that we are only material body and the spirit is only breath. We know a lot about God the Father because we are able to study the life of our Lord Jesus Christ in all four gospels, and He said clearly if you have seen me, you have seen the father. We also know for certain that Jesus is now eternally the God-man with a glorified body in heaven now who always intercedes for us before the Father. So why would it be heretical to say that possibly Jesus as the second person of the trinity may have existed as a spiritual body that always existed just as God the Father and the Holy Spirit has always existed? So again, this is not saying that Jesus existed as a man in a glorified body prior to His incarnation, but where in the bible are we told of the exact nature of the second person of the Trinity other than these several theophanies where the OT is clear? I have not had a chance to check some commentaries on this, but some of you may have good info on this topic. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1568 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, it is not my desire to throw out accusations of heresy. That is not my heart at all. It really isn't. But we are dealing with a serious issue here. If we say that God has always existed in bodily form, was approximately 6 feet tall (as He appeared to Abraham), and created Adam and Eve in this image--then how is this any different than what the Word-Faith teachers (such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, etc.) teach that Hank Hanegraaff refutes so well? In fact, it is exactly what they teach. Is this not heresy? I suppose there may be some on this forum that would say that Hank and others are wrong in calling it heresy... But it lowers God, makes Him finite, brings Him down to our level. It is creating God in the image of man. No, you are not a heretic for asking a question. But there is something I don't understand--and that is, why you are questioning Biblical historic doctrines of the Christian faith, such as the incorporeality of God. In fact, just a month ago you yourself posted that "Sola Scriptura" does not mean we are free to come up with our own theology with no regard for what the Church has historically taught. Here is the quote that you posted here from Michael Horton:
Regarding John 4:24, it seems you missed the point I was making. Jesus is saying that God by nature is spirit (that doesn't mean He could not have become incarnate). And Jesus also says that, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones." (Luke 24:39 NASB.) "However, why did the OT give us several examples of the bodily appearance of the Lord when He spoke face to face with Abraham?" God also appeared as fire in the OT--but that doesn't mean that He literally has the form of fire. "Jeremy, the Mormons don't believe that Jesus is fully God the way the SDAs do." Neither the Mormons or the SDAs believe that Jesus is fully God. They both teach that He is one of three gods. "The Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity which says that God is of one essence, three distinct, but not separate individuals---One God in three persons blessed Trinity." I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make here, but I agree, except I wouldn't use the word "individuals." I would say that God is three persons in one individual/Being. "Jeremy, you know I don't believe in tritheism, and I am saying that Christ is fully God, and in that sense we were created in His image, if indeed we were created in the image of God." I never had a problem with saying that we are created in the image of Christ, in that He is fully God and we are created in the image of God. I totally agree with that.  (Although, of course He was not the Christ/Messiah yet when He created Adam and Eve.) I only had a problem with the "body" part of it. Jesus very clearly says that no man has seen God at any time, and 1 Timothy 6:16 says of God, "whom no man has seen or can see." (And we can't separate the Son from the Father and the Holy Spirit.) The theophanies of the OT were not people literally seeing God's actual form. The Bible also says that God is "invisible." Another question that arises is, if Christ had a body prior to the incarnation, then what happened to that "divine body" when He became a human baby in Nazareth? As for suggested reading, the book Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff addresses this issue. Also, the following link appears (glancing through it) to be a good resource: http://www.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/invis.htm The above link even has a quote from Samuele Bacchiocchi where he apparently opposes the official SDA position that God is corporeal, but unfortunately the SDA church is not mentioned when it talks about those who teach that God is corporeal. As the above link points out:
But I would really suggest that you talk to your Pastor about this issue, since he is in a position of spiritual authority. But you can probably get a good idea beforehand of what he will tell you, by looking at the following statement from the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is linked to through your church's website:
Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on October 28, 2006) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2208 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, Jeremy, I believe in the Westminster confession doctrine of the Trinity. This discussion has really gone farther than I intended. I don't claim to know what exactly the nature of the second person of the Trinity before His incarnation, but in a way it is now quite irrelevant, as now we do worship the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ as He now has a glorified body, and lives to make intercession for us before the Father. So, now Jesus is God and is in a corporeal form, and any speculation about His preincarnate state is likely mute. However, I was just reading today in Daniel 3 the great story of the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace: 24Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished and rose up in haste. He declared to his counselors, "Did we not cast three men bound into the fire?" They answered and said to the king, "True, O king." 25He answered and said, "But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods." (Daniel 3:24,25 ESV) The Reformation study Bible note on this says they are not sure what specifically it was about the fourth person's appearance that made Him stand out to nebuchadnezzar. Jeremy, you posted that statement about the Trinity: I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions; [...] ------------------------------------------------- Is that statement talking about God the Father? That is what it appears to be saying, and I agree fully with that statement. It is indisputable that Christ, now the second person of the Trinity now has a glorified body with the nail marks still there. Jeremy, I don't understand what your hangup is? I suppose anything that comes anywhere close to possibly being related to SDA upsets you. What is the fear of emphasizing the fact that we look forward to the redemption of our bodies? The intermediate state is fine, but it is not the hoped for resurrection. When I recently left a church who teaches that you get an actual body in heaven when you die, I thought this was strange. This teaching is definitely aberrant that the Calvary Chapel movement's founder holds to. No one else in Christendom holds to this, yet this famous pastor gets a pass because of who he is. Norman Geisler denounced this view in one of his books. Doctrines that stress the immortality of the soul, rather than the resurrection are also unbalanced. All I did was ask a question about the preincarnate appearances of Jesus in the OT, and suddenly warning flags go up. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4865 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, I believe the condern re: whether or not God has a body is the same concern we have with other discussions here: the people reading who don't post and ask their own questions. We can't run the risk of giving the message that God has a body. That message wouldn't seem jarring to most people with Adventist backgrounds, but it's a message that we can't promulgate when the Bible teaches that God is invisible. Physical appearances of spiritual beings are not surprising; as Jeremy has pointed out, angels have often appeared in bodily form, and the OT's references to the "angel of the Lord" are thought to be references to the pre-incarnate Christ. The Bible identifies angels as "ministering spirits" in Heb. 1:14, and we know God is spirit. God has equipped these spirit beingsóincluding Himselfówith the ability to take on visible form when visiting our earth and its three dimensions inside time. This phenomenon doesn't at all suggest that the bodies humans see when they see angels (or the pre-incarnate Christ) are "permanent" or essential to the being's person. They are beings who are from outside time, and they are visiting inside. We have to take the Bible's own words as face value: the visible appearances of angels and the pre-incarnate Jesus do not define the nature of them. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1571 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, you wrote:
No, what I quoted is not talking about God the Father. It is talking about the one Being who is God--God in three persons--the Trinity. If you look at more of that statement here that is made even more clear. It is not talking about the Father. If I have a "hangup" about this issue, then many, many others also have the same "hangup." In fact, the Christian church as a whole declares that this is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on October 29, 2006) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2210 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Here is the entire statement: T"here is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24] II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37] III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son." So, Jeremy, one more time, I believe EVERY word of that document. What have I said that is heretical? JJeremy, that is a statement about the Trinity, but do you believe now that Jesus is still both God and man? He has a glorified body with the nail marks still there? So how does he not have body parts such as hands as the initial statement you posted said there were no body parts. Jesus is fully God and fully man now for all eternity. I just looked it up in Grudem's theology. Here is your partial statement again: I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions; [...] " -------------------------------------------------- My question to you Jeremy, does the part that says without body parts apply to Christ now. He is the second person of the Trinity. He has a glorified body. Is that heresy? Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2211 Registered: 3-2005 |
And here is the entire statement on Christ our mediator according to the Westminster Confession: CHAPTER VIII. Of Christ the Mediator. I. It pleased God, in his eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, his only-begotten Son, to be the Mediator between God and men, the prophet, priest, and king; the head and Savior of the Church, the heir or all things, and judge of the world; unto whom he did, from all eternity, give a people to be his seed, and to be by him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified. II. The Son of God, the second Person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance, and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof; yet without sin: being conceived by he power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance. So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion. Which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man. III. The Lord Jesus in his human nature thus united to the divine, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure; having in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell: to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth, he might be thoroughly furnished to execute the office of a Mediator and Surety. Which office he took not unto himself, but was thereunto called by his Father; who put all power and judgment into his hand, and gave him commandment to execute the same. IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake, which, that he might discharge, he was made under the law, and did perfectly fulfill it; endured most grievous torments immediately in his soul, and most painful sufferings in his body; was crucified and died; was buried, and remained under the power of death, yet saw no corruption. On the third day he arose from the dead, with the same body in which he suffered; with which also he ascended into heaven, and there sitteth at the right hand of his Father, making intercession; and shall return to judge men and angels, at the end of the world. V. The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience and sacrifice of himself, which he through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of his Father; and purchased not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto him. VI. Although the work of redemption was not actually wrought by Christ till after his incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefits thereof were communicated into the elect, in all ages successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices wherein he was revealed, and signified to be the seed of the woman, which should bruise the serpent's head, and the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world, being yesterday and today the same and for ever. VII. Christ, in the work of mediation, acteth according to both natures; by each nature doing that which is proper to itself; yet by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes, in Scripture, attributed to the person denominated by the other nature. VIII. To all those for whom Christ hath purchased redemption, he doth certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same; making intercession for them, and revealing unto them, in and by the Word, the mysteries of salvation; effectually persuading them by his Spirit to believe and obey; and governing their hearts by his Word and Spirit; overcoming all their enemies by his almighty power and wisdom, in such manner and ways as are most consonant to his wonderful and unsearchable dispensation. ------------------------------------------------- Just so there is no confusion by anyone reading this thread, I believe in the full statements of the Westminster Confession on both the Trinity and Christ our Mediator. Genesis 1:26,27 says this: 26Then God said, "Let us make man[h] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. -------------------------------------------------- And we know that Jesus Himself was the active agent in creation from John 1:1-3: 1"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." ------------------------------------------------- And of course the Word only became flesh at the birth of Jesus. No argument there. So, why would it raise red flags as it did above to say that we were created in the image of Christ, since He is the likely active voice and He is fully God? And yes the Father and the Holy Spirit were also active in creation." So, if a simpleton comes along who is unacquainted with the Westminster Confession and reads about the bodily appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ in Genesis, then he might just conclude that there was some form of a spiritual body that the pre-incarnate Christ might have had, but would a view like this label him an absolute heretic? I don't hold this view personally, but apparently this SDA view didn't bother the great Reformed theologian Anthony Hoekema, as he examined SDA Christology and determined SDA was a cult based on eschatology and not Christology or doctrine of man or God. I spent a large part of my life in two different churches who hold to wrong views of the intermediate state. Adventism's extreme is the soul dies with the body and ceases to exist until the resurrection. The other church I went to that overall was very good, but they also hold the aberrant view that in essence we receive a body at death. That logically denies the Resurrection hope. Truth always lies in between two extremes. Martin Luther's doctrine and Oscar Cullman's (Lutheran theologian) taught soul sleep in a different way, in that the human spirit didn't die at physical death, but rested in Jesus as in a pleasant sleep state until the Resurrection. Again, Luther's view of soul sleep was not SDAs view, and in a lot of ways it makes sense, since we are resting and waiting for the blessed resurrection. This is an area where there is legitimate disagreement. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1572 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, I'll try to be more clear in explaining what I'm talking about. First of all, yes, of course Jesus still has His body with the nail marks--as you said, He is fully God and fully man now for all eternity. But that has not been the point of contention or discussion. Again, that statement from the Westminster Confession of Faith is talking about God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--the Trinity. It has to be, or else if the "most pure spirit" being referred to was talking about the Father only--then we would have more than one spirit that is God. And again, you can't separate the Son from the Father and the Spirit. But the WCF is not teaching that at all. That statement is not addressing Christ's incarnation and human nature. It is saying that God does not by nature have a body. In other words God's nature is incorporeal. In order to have a body, God had to stoop down and become human. In other words, He is the infinite Spirit who condescended and took on a human body. So to say that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human with a human body and that "in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Colossians 2:9 NASB)--is absolutely orthodox Christian doctrine. But to say that God is by nature corporeal, with a 6-foot height, and that He created Adam and Eve in this image, as Kenneth Copeland teaches--is heresy. I hope I helped clear this all up and not made it more confusing. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1573 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, I don't think most Christian apologists realize that it is the SDA view. But they do sure "attack" the Mormons and Word-Faith teachers for teaching the exact same thing. So it certainly isn't that people like Hoekema and others don't believe it is heresy. Jeremy | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2006 |
If I remember correctly (and I try to forget most of it) not only did Ellen White promote that Jesus was Michael the Archangel before His incarnation, but didn't she describe God the Father as having a bodily form as well? Seems as though I remember reading (perhaps in one of the volumes of Spiritual Gifts) about His long flowing white beard. This would be heresy, absolutely. Of course, I could be mistaken. I had no idea Kenneth Copeland taught that. I wondered why I got an uncomfortable feeling when I saw him on television. The way I understand what you are discussing, Stan and Jeremy, is that the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are indeed by nature Spirit. The times in the OT where God (or Jesus)appeared in any sort of form was something that was assumed, for that particular event. A pillar of fire, a burning bush, an angel, the form of a man in the fiery furnace, all these were manifestations of God as Spirit in various forms when appearing to us. Only Jesus now as fully God dwells in a glorified body, for all eternity bearing the sign of His sacrifice for us. Oh, how I long to touch those hands who bore my sin! Susan |
