| Author | Message | ||
| Robby Registered user Username: Robby Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2006 |
We attend Andy Stanley's North Point Community Church in Atlanta. Its a very dynamic evangelic church with weekly attendees of around 16,000 people. (Andy's sermons are posted online, and the current series about the devil is excellent www.northpoint.org) BTW, Andy Stanley is the son of well known Baptist minister Charles Stanley. But I digress. My wife and I were walking out of the service one Sunday morning and spotted a large bus with Southern Adventist University lettered on the side. The bus was new and featured a picture of smiling students on the side. What was this??? What are a bus load of Adventists doing at this Pagan church? Hmmm Well we walked to the bus, but the visitors had already gone inside. However another lady approached us as we stood near the bus and I introduced myself as a former Adventist. Well she is not only a former, but her husband was an SDA Pastor. They were Southern AU graduates, and fairly young people. They now attend North Point. His blog is www.forresterfootnotes.blogspot.com. Give it a visit. Let him know that you found out about his blog on formaeradventist.com. I wonder what that Adventist coach was doing at North Point? Any ideas? In His Grace, Robby | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2004  |
There's someone going by "Cforrester" on this forum. Jeremiah | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 229 Registered: 4-2006  |
I've been reading that blog for some time, its interesting. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 438 Registered: 10-2002  |
This post of Curtis' really hits the nail on the head, and I pray that others here find it worthy of much deep consideration. Curtis, if you're seeing this post, I hope you don't mind me posting this excerpt here! Blessings in Him!
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| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4862 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cforrester is here, all right! Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 476 Registered: 10-2005 |
Robby, The big new bus is just a modern day evangelizing tool. The simple Christians (all those Sunday worshippers), need to know that Adventists are Christians like them. And some of them may be drawn to the Adventists by the Holy Spirit because the Adventists have more knowledge of the bible. The Adventists know everthing the simple Christians know, just more. Because they really use their minds and study the bible. The Adventists really seek the answers in the bible and they really have the knowledge. In keeping up such a front, the Christian world will think the Adventist Church is just another denomination and will not warn their unsaved or saved friends from them. Thanks to such a front, my Christian friends never warned me against them. We all just thought the Adventists were a different denomination with a health message (I have health issues), and they went to church on Saturday, not Sunday. No big deal, right? They just keep all Ten Commandments. And now, the buzz in our society/culture and many Christian denominations, is healthy eating, good dietary health. Adventists seemed to know the bible and science a little better than most Christians I thought when I started with them. No, I thought, the Adventists weren't perfect, but what denomination is? Were some historic Adventists like Kellogg ahead of their time talking tofu and fiber in the 1800's? Yes, perhaps. God does redeem all this stuff doesn't He? I think Christians need to be very careful with science. It was something the Adventists used to evangelize me. I wouldn't be alive without scientific research, but the enemy will use that or anything he can whenever possible. Why is stem cell research not more accurately described as dead fetus/aborted baby research? Whatever looks good, whatever sounds good, whatever works. But, the enemy cannot read our minds. And he cannot remove Christ from our hearts. Lynne | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 758 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lynn, You bring up a point that has been bothering me for a long time now. Nine years ago I began my quest for Real Truth and started that search in Bible Study Fellowship (BSF). Of course, at the time, I did not realize how warped my sense of truth really was. Through this study God got His hands on me and I found Truth - Jesus is everything. I will forever sing praises to God for His searching, caring and guiding of me as He led me out of bondage through His vehicle of BSF. As Lynn said, many Christians see Adventism as just any other "normal" Christian religion. I have had the great fortune and blessing to develop some wonderful, deep friendships with these Christians. They all inevitably are absolutely blown away when I share with them my SDA background, beliefs and God's leading of me out of the clutches of the religion. I have found over the last few years, after coming to FAF, reading Proclamation, Greg Taylor's and Dale Ratzlaff's books and being led by the Holy Spirit's teachings, my belief in New Covenant teachings grow stronger and stronger. The thing that has amazed me even further is that there are very few Chritians who are New Covenant believers. After sending out my resignation letter to family and friends, I received a letter from a former SDA pastor of mine who accused me of Antinomianism. Imagine my surprise when BSF posed the following comment/question(s), "Antinomianism is the belief that Christians are free from the obligation to obey God's law. What expressions of antinomianism have youovserved in today's world? Does a person who is justified through faith need to obey the Ten Commandments?" When I pointed out to a BSF teaching leader that these questions would lead a SDA in BSF to continue to believe they were still to keep the seventh day "holy". She essentially told me that the 10 commandments were in the Bible and as Christians we are obligated to live our lives by their guidelines. Many of the Christian ladies in my discussion group agree wholeheartedly. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 759 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oops...I accidently posted before I finished my sermon... sorry!  Here's my point: First many Christians can easily be swayed into Adventism because of their belief that they are obligated to uphold a list of standards that Jesus died to fulfill on our behalf. Though BSF and many Christians believe that we are no longer under the law and our salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, they still hold on to the 10 Commandments (apart from the Law of Moses). How easy it is then for the SDA to woo them into that 4th commandment! Second, many SDAs (myself included for many years) are held in bondage because Christians do not understand the New Covenant. They, like I, come to understand and embrace the precious gift of salvation through the grace of God but cannot quite leave the bondage completely because of that 4th commandment. Last week I went into the Christian Book store here in town and ran into the "Cult" section. They had books on Mormonism, JWs, Islam...but nothing on SDAs. I spent about 20 minutes with the manager of the store sharing my spiritual journey out of Adventism. She was amazed at how the religion mirrored Mormonism (her sister converted to the religion when she married). I went back a few days later with 4 of my favorite books from Greg Taylor and Dale Ratzlaff. She was very interested in reading them and maybe ordering some to sell. I did not contact Greg or Dale to check if they do sell their books in stores but if nothing else, the information is out in the general Christian arena. I gave her the books to keep and told her to share them with her Christian friends even if she did not order them for the store. I firmly believe as former Adventists, we have a special calling. We have a unique experience of grace because of the legalism we lived with. The New Covenant of Jesus is such a beautiful, simple but glorious Truth. I praise God He has removed the veil from my eyes and I can live fully in His freedom. Give me Jesus! Densie | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2006 |
Denise, I had the exact same experience in BSF last week. When I shared how we are not under the law, of which the 10 commandments are a part, the women there (except the one who first said why is that question in here? Aren't we no longer under the law?) looked at me like I had three heads. Finally one woman said, well we have to obey the 10 commandments but know there is something else, too. When I said if you are going to obey the 10 commandments what are you going to do about Sabbath? You better hold to the 7th day, because that's what it says. Then I went on to say how we can be deceived as I was deceived, and that I know I might appear to be Antinomian, but it was dangerous and could lead Christians out of the grace of God. I'm worried I won't be allowed in next week! My leader has not called as she normally does. We will see. I agree with you that we have a special calling as former Adventists. Praise God that many of us are now able to share our story of freedom in Christ. Susan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 760 Registered: 7-2004 |
Way to go, Susan! I was a wimp...I was so upset by the questions (especially in light of being call an Antinomian fairly recently by a SDA pastor) I just skipped last week. I have been a discussion leader in the past. I am shocked you were allowed to carry on...but great that you did. I just cannot see where we can have it both ways. If you having an obligation to use the 10 Cs as a guide for your life in anyway, then you better be a SDA. I know there are some who say the Sabbath is ceremonial and not moral but I don't feel I can pick and chose. It's all or nothing... I praise God for other "formers" who know and understand me. Thanks Susan. Just give me Jesus! Denise | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 292 Registered: 11-2004 |
Susan and Denise, I so agree. So many Christians out there believe the 10 commandments are binding mostly because of the morality it involves. In so doing if they attend a Revelation Seminar they are highly likely to be convinced that they should be keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day. Susan, Hopefully the leader will call you. My husband and I were shunned at one church when he told people that if they feel like they HAVE to pray, read the Bible, etc to be in right standing with God they should stop and rest in Jesus and do those things because they want to. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2006 |
U2, I hope she calls me as well. But, if she doesn't, I'll still be there on Monday night. Denise, I think the reason I was not stopped is that our leader is about 20 and this is her first time leading a group. I'm glad that she didn't stop me, though, and hopefully as we move forward into Romans those wonderful, sincere Christian women will remember what was said. To God be the glory, for saving us while we were yet spiritually dead in our sins! Not to leave us there, but to change us from glory to glory, being made into the image of His Son. Susan | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 249 Registered: 6-2006  |
Susan and Denise, I would really like to join BSF, but I've heard that it's something like a two year commitment? I don't know very much about it and there's only one church (with one women's time and one men's time) in my whole town that sponsors it. Is it something you can jump into the middle of, or is it something you absolutely have to start at the beginning? I'm a stay-at-home Mom and my husband's work hours are crazy sometimes. I don't know how consistant I can be with weekly classes... Thanks! Also, Robby and CForrester, I really am enjoying reading the blog! Thanks for pointing that out Robby, and thanks for sharing your thoughts C! Leigh Anne | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 477 Registered: 10-2005 |
Denise - If anyone tells calls you an "Antinomian" tell them to read: Matthew 5:20 and Matthew 16:6 And ask, could there still be modern day Pharisees? If so, who are they? About the laws, I don't think too many Christians are concerned about getting laws in the bible right. It is more about letting our hearts speak to us in truth. A church should teach the OT leads to Christ and His final atonement. It isn't about getting the laws right. Christians of all denominations need to be careful of modern day Pharasees and not lose heart. I think the spirit convicts many people to leave Adventism. It did me for many years, but many of us lose heart because of the bad doctrine we learned. The fear of other Christians and various fears associated with our religious teaching in general. In mingling with other Christians, I was so afraid of any Christian that might have thought of me as anything other than a Christian, like them. Any hint of a Christian not liking the teaching of the Adventists brought to me thoughts of Persecution and End Times... as the Adventist doctrine teaches. Going from that to understanding the true Christ, I cannot say anything bad or hurtful to any Adventist now. It is the doctrine and deception in Adventism that is the problem. Not the people within that religion. I cannot do anything but let the love placed in my heart try to jump out and embrace my Adventist friends now. I started with the Adventists believing in grace alone. But the pressure to conform to the laws, and the realization that I just was not good enough and the false teaching that I would not be saved if I couldn't.... Brought me to sleepless nights and some health problems. I considered myself a Christian for many years as an Adventist and loved Jesus with all my heart. But like a demanding father, I could not live up to His demands, so I thought. That is what I call, for me anyway, losing heart. I will not lose heart again - it really is now for me about grace alone. I used to try to figure everything out and read chapters and volumes. Now I have gone down to just restfully reading sentences and paragraph in my bible for complete comfort. I am finding more and more how "off" my beliefs were as an Adventist compared to mainstream Christians. I will not let any laws or bible study or doctrine confuse me. Prayerfully, we can pray the spirit will convict some of these Adventists going to other churches by the busload to hear and seek the truth in Christ. As in the past I've heard people in this forum say, I can see how God will redeem that. Lynne | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 761 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Leigh Anne, BSF does not require a two year committment. They do ask that you not miss 3 weeks in a row as there may be a waiting list of women waiting to get in. They have the most wonderful children's BSF. The women's day class has children's classes for the 2yr. old - kindergarten age. The men's night classes usually have classes for the school age kids. It all depends on your area. It is not a babysitting class. The children's leaders teach the children the exact same Bible study right along with the parents - how they get Romans boiled down for a 2 year old is beyond belief. I can not say enough good about the children's program. Check it out and see what you think (you can find the name of the contact person for your area on the internet - www.biblestudyfellowship.com). Orientation classes are always the first Monday (evening classes) or Wednesday (day classes) of the month. If your husband would be interested, it would be a great way to be in the Bible with him and discuss things on a "neutral" playing field. Blessings, Denise | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 53 Registered: 8-2006 |
Leigh Anne, This is my first experience with BSF. I have taken, and enjoyed, Precept classes. It's inductive bible study as well. I have some issues with the format and questions of BSF, as Denise and I mentioned earlier in this thread. However, I believe she is correct in saying that many Christians are not aware of what the New Covenant really is. They (BSF) are focused on the gospel, though...that salvation is by faith in Jesus. My women's class is on Monday nights and there are the children's classes here at the same time. My husband attends the men's study at another church also on Monday nights. Our study is the only night study for men or women for many miles around. Our BSF leader drives almost 2 hours to get here. There is a class also just for women during the day as well. When I first came there were many women on the waiting list. Praise God, they have all been placed now and there is an introductory class this Monday night. It's been a good way for my husband, who is a fundamentalist Baptist and believes differently than me (although NOT in essentials) to discuss what we are studying. We both did not care for this past week's lesson because of the last section on Antinomianism and the requirement to keep the 10 commandments. I was a little surprised at that, because I did not know he felt that way. We are still basically newlyweds, having been married just about a year and a half now, and I have this feeling in my soul that we are more in line with the same beliefs than I first may have thought. I praise God that I married a godly, wise Christian man who loves the Lord. He wept without embarrassement the first time we celebrated communion together. He truly loves the Lord and loves me. God surely redeemed my past and gave me the desire of my heart for a man who is the spiritual head of our family. Susan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 852 Registered: 4-2000  |
Susan, Indeed, we are not under the Decalogue or Torah as a UNIT of laws due to the ceremonial and civil aspects therein. However, God's MORAL laws are holy, timeless, and eternal. This is why nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament. Because of our having suffered spiritual abuse in the legalistic world of Adventism, we sometimes have a tendency to downplay biblical, moral directives. It is real easy to point out to people that the weekly Sabbath is ceremonial in nature (without attacking God's moral directives simultaneously). This teaching methodology will not alienate people needlessly--our Adventist friends included. After all, Christians are not lawless people nor antinomians. We, of all people, believe in holy living. Certainly, the Spirit-led life does not shun nor negate God's written Word. The Bible is God's voice speaking to us. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2006 |
Hi Dennis! I agree, God does have moral laws that Jesus taught in the New Testament. He even taught that there were MORE to the 10 words than the Jews understood. (If you are angry with your brother, you have committed murder, for example). My understanding, and it may not be complete, and I'm always open to the truth as it is in the Bible, is that we are now under the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus. Those moral commands are indeed written on our hearts and minds. However, I believe that just because some of the laws are similar, but go further that the Law in the OT, that it is NOT the same law. That old covenant is no longer binding on the believer who is in Christ. We do agree on your first sentence, though. I in no way want to downplay any biblical, moral directives. But I do disagree in saying we still need to keep the 10 commandments, no wait, let's just keep 9 of them. I believe this is how the erroneous teaching of the "Christian Sabbath" and it's (in some circles) rules of how to keep it can be dangerous. Have you ever heard of David Mains? He and his wife teach a lot on how to keep Sunday sacred. The things they promote sound an awful lot like how Adventists promote keeping Sabbath sacred. ALL of God's law is holy, timeless, and eternal. I really do believe that. And I am sorry if I have given the impression that walking in the Spirit shunned God's word. Indeed, the 10 commandments serves to point out where I sin. But that does not mean I need to "keep" the 10 commandments. Susan | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2006 |
Also, I did want to add that there were many moral laws in other parts of the Law of Moses that are not contained in the 10 commandments such as premarital sex, rape, sorcery, homosexual acts, incest, bestiality, mistreating the helpless, kidnapping, etc. So when we speak of God's moral laws we are speaking of more than just the 10 commandments. Susan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 762 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you, Susan. Very well stated. |
