| Author | Message | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2006 |
When all the talk is done and all the debate is over concerning Ellen White, the basic queston remains, "Was Ellen White a Born Again Christian?" What do you say? WalkOnWater ------------------------------------ PS: I have not answered some questions on the other threads because we are getting close to closing on the property we are buying in Oregon and I have no chat time. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2006  |
Only God knows. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1582 Registered: 10-2004  |
That's like asking if Joseph Smith was a born again Christian. Or Mary Baker Eddy, or Charles Taze Russell. No. She was a false prophet who had a different Jesus, a different spirit, and a different gospel.
God says that He is against Ellen White, that she is eternally condemned, and that she is being kept under punishment for the day of judgment. Furthermore, Jesus tells us that we not only can, but will know who the "ravenous wolves"/"false prophets" are. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on November 01, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4889 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, I agree with you. The texts above explain the "ellen" syndrome well. Your placing her in the category of Joseph Smith, Russell, and Eddy is accurate. People with messages from "god" that are not teaching the true Biblical doctrines are not sent from God. A person who is born again and filled with the Spirit of God will not misrepresent him that way, because he or she knows Him and is His "bondslave", to quote Paul. Of course, I cannot say that she did or did not have an encounter with the Lord right before her deathóthat information belongs to God alone. But I do know what she did in her lifetime, and I know that she has led millions of people into spiritual bondage and away from the true Jesus. Those things are not the marks of a Christ-follower and do not reflect the fruit of the Spirit. Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2004 |
Interesting question. Your use of the phrase "born again" is not a typical phrase used by an Adventist. Based on her writings I would say no. Personally, I believe EGW had a mental problem. I don't know if she intentially misled people or whether the false prophecies/teachings were a result of a mental problem. The belief that salvation equals Jesus' sacrifice plus my good works makes me wonder about salvation. Either we rely on Him or ourselves. My understanding of EGW's teachings is that Jesus' sacrifice was not enough. Anyway, man looks at the outward things which is what I have just done, but God looks at the heart. So in short - I don't know. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 367 Registered: 7-2005  |
Ub2sda, What you certainly know is that the Bible classifies false prophets as wolves. If you can find a text where the Bible presents a different picture about the prophets, you may certainly believe that it is possible for Ellen White as a false prophet to be a christian woman. Mental problems are no playing a significant role in the issue. If God can exorcise two demoniacs, He certainly can rescue someone frome mental problems and self-deception. Knowing the truth, Jesus, is in contrast with being a tool of Satan. Those who are redeemed from the power of darkness are brought in the kingdom of light. Long and consistent deception in children of light, are impossible, if we take seriouslyy what John said in his first epistle. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 304 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jackob, I do see a difference between someone who intentially preaches a false gospel and someone who has mental problems who thinks that they have heard from God. If a person thinks their "visions" are from God then they are not practicing deception. If that is the case I'm sure there were people around her that were practicing deception because they knew of mental problems. It is all speculation though. Maybe she intentionlly deceived people, maybe she was possessed of the devil, or maybe she had mental problems and thought her visions were from God. Honestly, I would prefer to believe the best about a person. If I am right or wrong it doesn't matter because I have nothing to do with her salvation. Either way her writings are obviously not in agreement with the Bible so they are tossed out in my book. I must admit that EGW had nothing to do with me leaving the SDA church and my knowlegde of her is limited so I may be way off base here  | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 305 Registered: 11-2004 |
Here is a link that talks about the possibility of her visions being caused by a head injury/epilepsy http://www.ellenwhite.org/headinjury.htm DM Canright thought her visions were a result of her head injury. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 52 Registered: 9-2006 |
What seems strange to me is that I have not found anyone who discusses the folk around her during that time. Taking into account, they had not the modern medical facilities we have now and so really had no way of knowing the extent of her injuries, if indeed there were serious injury inflicted by the rock incident. Take for instance, if she did receive a serious brain injury that brought on the ìvisionsî and times of swooning during church services and later, no one seems to place fault with the simpletons around her that taken it for granted she was receiving visions from God. Of course this is all speculation but it could have been that those simpletons around her, by concurring with her that these were indeed ìVisionsî from God finally convinced her that she was actually and in realty being communicated with by angels and such, and all this advancing to where she then was expected to perform and get yet even more ìWordî from God, therefore convincing her even more that she was the ìauthorityî therefore completing the sad state of affairs that they ended up with, ìAdventismî and thus Satan completing his deceit. I suppose there were plenty of people back in those times that could not read at all or many that could not read well and so I say therefore, the ìSimpletonsî around her, but some could obviously read and yet chose to ignore the Bible and be willing to be lead astray through the attraction of Salvation by their own works (or) pulling oneself up by his own boot straps. Satan uses whatever means he can to deceive, he doesnít give a hoot if you are injured or sick or what. In fact he will, like the wolf attack the weak first. Where were the ones that were supposed to be on guard and contending for the faith at that time, that is what I would like to know. Since this is all speculation, maybe there was a whole houseful of simpletons, who knows? I do believe we can be ìlead by the spiritî but when I hear the words out of mouths ìThe Lord showed meî my mind gate slams shut so hard you could hear it a half mile away and this mental computer I got sitting on top my shoulders begins to scan the word of God and then I begin to turn pages in the Bible and it doesnít get in unless thus saith the word and this also goes for ìchurchî practice. Now I donít mean to say that I sit around looking for something or someone to condemn or refute, I donít mean that at all. The folk who are taught this garbage from childhood, one canít place a lot of blame on, or anyone looking for truth falling into it because the thing is also very subtle. What do we do with the theologians who claim authority even today? They surely cannot justify using excuses and cover up. The Bible encourages us to grow in grace, and Paul encourages growing into maturity. I know that there are many scriptures that I will change my mind on many times throughout my lifetime just as there has been many times in the past. Diligent study just seems to do that. Again I ask, where were the mature ones? Was Ellen White a deceiver or was it the ones who were all too ready to be deceived, and to stray from the Bible so easily and let man be lifted up in place of the Cross of Christ? I myself would not dare to even speculate the condition of this womanís soul nor the depth of her suffering in her life. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2233 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have a medical colleague who is a Dermatologist with our medical group who now heads the local chapter of the Christian Medical Association. I was taking care of her hospitalized relative, and we happened to get into a converstion about how she came to know the Lord: She went to Loma Linda med school never having any exposure to Christianity before--no background at all. My mouth almost fell open when she said that someone at loma Linda handed her the book "Desire of Ages". She came to Christ reading that book, but the good news is she did not convert to SDA, and she now goes to an evangelical church. But when I told her I posted on a former SDA web site which classified Ellen as a false prophet, she did not relate at all, and couldn't understand what I was referring to. This story does not prove one way or another whether Ellen was saved as God works in many sovereign ways, but this just happened to me recently, and I did have to think twice about this event. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1583 Registered: 10-2004 |
I agree with Jackob, that mental/medical problems cannot tell us whether or not EGW was saved. (In fact, according to Jesus' words in Matthew 7, it sounds like many false prophets will not even know in this life that they weren't serving Jesus!) Whether mentally ill or not, false prophets are not Christians. To put it bluntly, damaging your brain cannot get you to heaven--that is not a way of salvation. A false gospel (which EGW believed in) cannot get you to heaven. Those who fight against the Gospel like EGW did are not Christians. If Mary Baker Eddy had been mentally ill/brain damaged, would that have meant that she was saved??? I just don't get that argument... I really cannot comprehend at all why Ellen so often gets a pass, and others don't... Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2234 Registered: 3-2005 |
I am still looking for a similar story that I posted above about the Desire of ages leading someone to Christ, and I wonder if anyone can relate a similar story of anyone being led to Christ by Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith. I am not defending Ellen, but at least Ellen copied enough true Christian sources with enough scripture quoted that has led many to Christ. I have read enough of Mary Baker Eddy to convince me that she never even intimated that Jesus was eternal God. There is so much conflicting evidence with regard to what Ellen truly believed and even as to what she actually wrote, that I will withhold judgment as to her final fate. I agree with Colleen that we don't know if in her dying moments God may have sovereignly saved her. Stan | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 486 Registered: 7-2000 |
Stan, I don't know if this helps with the Joseph Smith question. But, my wife and I have been around many Mormons. I've spent quite a bit of time at their churches doing geneological research in their family history centers. Did you know that they pray in the name of Jesus? If you just listen to their meetings, to the way that they talk and pray, you'd be convinced that they are really Christian. They aren't like the J.W.'s with their own code words and mistrust of any outsiders. So, vis a vis the Mormon example, where does one cross over the line from 'saved and Christian' to 'I never knew you'? Honestly, I don't know. All I can do is evaluate what is taught and see if it lines up with the Bible. If it doesn't, then whoever is giving the message is a false prophet and I don't have to be afraid of them. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 267 Registered: 6-2006  |
Loneviking, I have a dear Mormon friend, but what I've learned of the Mormons, they don't even believe the same Jesus we do. They believe that he and Satan are spirit brothers. They have a whole other Jesus than what the Bible states. Here's a sample of the Mormon Jesus... http://www.challengemin.org/jofm.html I found these Mormon verses in that site as well. "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979 edition, p. 670 "... we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23) "... all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God;... the most corrupt of all people. Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces .... "(Seer, p. 255) YIKES!!! | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 110 Registered: 8-2006 |
Stan, About your issue with desire of ages. About two years ago I got a book off of ebay and decided to read random passages out of it to my wife - without revealing the name of the book. My wife was a devout student of EGW. As a stay at home mom she had plenty of time and she spent every spare minute reading 'The red books.' So I hid the cover and started reading random passages. I would then ask her, "Where did that come from?" She would say time and time again, "Oh, I have read that lots of times, that is Desire of Ages." This went on about about 6-7 times, then I showed her the book. Her face turned as white as a sheet, It's an old original copy of "Night Scenes in the Bible" by Daniel March, published 1868! -of course as you may know, this is the book Walter Rea found was one of Ellens favorites while she was "Being shown" So when I here stories of people finding Jesus in the Desire of Ages, I think it is only natural, Ellen stole it from March but March got it from the Bible... | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2006 |
Jeremy, I hesitate to say EGW is going to hell, but I understand your frustration. Revelation makes it very clear that the false prophet will be in the lake of fire (Rev20:10) and will be tormented forever and ever. But you mentioned several false prophets, and Revelation only mentions 'the' false prophet. I know this is weird so you don't have to stone me but, is it possible that Revelation is talking about a false prophets spirit? What about that fine young man that visited her? (These days they would call it a familiar spirit) He may very well be the "False Prophet" and she was simply deceived. I really don't believe that it was mere coincidence that Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, and the EGW movement started in 1844. This Spirit, simply ended one mission, and started another to capture people that didn't fall for the first deception, (and was more clever the second time). I know this is all strange but if God can save someone like me through Jesus, he can certainly save someone like Ellen. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1584 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, do you think that someone could be led to Christ reading this gospel presentation? Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1585 Registered: 10-2004 |
Timmy, Revelation 20:10 is talking about a particular false prophet that had been mentioned previously in Revelation, that performs signs and wonders during the great tribulation. But I think that if you look at the passages I quoted in my post, that it is pretty clear that they are talking about false prophets/teachers in general, and that they are talkng about humans. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1586 Registered: 10-2004 |
As for the Mormons believing in a different Jesus, I found the Mormon response to be very interesting: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/different_jesus.htm Notice that they even say, "we believe in the Jesus who is the Christ, the Eternal God"! Jeremy P.S. So that no one gets the wrong idea, I absolutely believe that the Mormons do have a different Jesus. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2006 |
I have been reading the posts regarding Ellen White. Words fail to express what I feel at this moment. It is one thing to debate theology. But to hear people condemning her to hell, to be burned for all eternity, is almost more than I can bear. Even one of her most severe critics, Dudley Canright, is reported to have said at the time of her funeral that she was "a most godly woman." I am not here to defend Ellen White. But she has had a greater influence in my life than almost any other earthly person. She was the one who caused my heart to fear. And she pointed me to Jesus as my only hope. To hear her compared to Joseph Smith, a person whose man-made theolgoy allowed him to carry out his sexual fantasies with as many woman as posible; and then to hear Ellen White condemned as a liar and deliberate deceiver, wrings my heart. The young girl who was cruelly attacked and nearly killed, gave her life to Jesus and for 80 years, in spite of her frailness, devoted her entire time and money and energy to serving God. I daresay, by comparison, she puts us all to utter shame. Yes she made many mistakes. Yes she was human. But to question her dedication to Jesus and to condemn her to hell for all eternity I fear says more about the condemner than the condemned. Yes her words convict. Yes her words condemn. Yes her words exponentially increased my guilt. But in my desperation, I cried out to God in a way I would not have otherwise done. And when HE came, her words of condemnation became words of promise. As I read the closing chapter of the Great Controversy, my heart thrills with a view of heaven that I think only a person who saw it could express. Yes she was wrong about 1843 and 1844, and the shut door. Yes she copied. Yes she had ìvisionsî which may have been caused by brain injury. But the glory of the gospel is that God can take people who are messed up, like you and me, and make us into saints. To condemn Ellen White is to condemn ourselves. Who of us has not made huge mistakes in our lives? But, you say, ìWe are not claiming to be a prophet like she did.î You are right! Instead of prophets, the Bible says we jumped at the chance to ìBE AS GODSî!! How often have you or I moved God off His throne and seated ourselves as sickening little imposters. A post on this thread actually said, ìGod says that He is against Ellen White, that she is eternally condemned, and that she is being kept under punishment for the day of judgment.î Who made me or you the Judge? Who made me or you God? WE DO!! WE ALL DO!! We so often make ourselves, Judge, Jury and Executioner. Oh Lord, be merciful to all of us for being so judgmental. Be merciful to us for trying to take your place just as Satan tried to take your place. Oh Jesus, without you we would annihilate ourselves with our self-centered, damnable pride. Be merciful to us, the sinners we are, starting with the greatest of sinners, me. WalkOnWater |
