| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 599 Registered: 7-2004  |
Is it possible that Ellen was a mentally disturbed individual manipulated by those around her to the point of confusion about her own role. I would have to say yes. Is it more likely that she is a prophet, just as she claims? I believe so. In which case we need to judge whether she is a true or a false prophet. But I think that all we can judge is the Biblical accuracy of her teachings and whether her teachings should be thrown out or accepted. We can not judge her final status with God. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 685 Registered: 8-2004  |
Walk, And you're not here to defend her? Hmm. (Message edited by helovesme2 on November 02, 2006) | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 112 Registered: 8-2006  |
Wow, "Was Joseph Smith a Born Again Christian?" What do you say? Tim | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1587 Registered: 10-2004  |
Walk, You admitted: "Yes she copied." God says: "'Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,' says the LORD, 'who steal My words every one from his neighbor." (Jeremiah 23:30 NKJV.) I said: "God says that He is against Ellen White," You accused me of being judgmental. Don't you see a problem here? Jeremy | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 487 Registered: 7-2000 |
Walk, about the only 'good' things I find in EGW writings are those that she ripped off from other authors. When you look at the Testimonies, manuscripts and letters that she wrote, there can be no doubt that they don't come from God. Her writings have caused untold thousands to liver in fear, misery, doubt and despair. I've met 'former' Adventists that know nothing about this site and over 25 years after leaving are still afraid that they will be lost forever because they left. They feel that way because of the writings of EGW. Bill | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 209 Registered: 3-2005 |
Walk, I cannot say whether EGW was saved or not - that is up to God to know. But I can emphatically say that she did knowingly deceive others, abuse her power, and make a very good profit from her role as prophet. If any good did come from her writing, then praise God that he could use whatever means available to draw us to Himself. Her theology was man (woman)-made just as was Joseph Smith and others. She contradicted the Bible, twisted the message of the Bible, contradicted her own visions, and continually accused others of things she herself saw no wrong in doing. This is NOT a true prophet of God. Yes, she may have influenced you greatly. Her writings (whether those of her own or those plagerized) may have, as you said "caused my heart to fear...pointed me to Jesus as my only hope". But that doesn't mean she was a true prophet. I also have someone in my life that was a great influence on me, caused my heart to fear, and caused me to turn to Jesus as my only hope. That person was an abuser and molester. He was evil. And because of him, I turned to Jesus Christ as my only hope. That does not make him good, although God used the circumstances for good in the end. EGW was a false prophet. And no matter whether she had visions due to a head injury at first, she later knowingly used this for her own personal gain and power. The SDA church that was formed out of her theology came to understand this but was too afraid to lose their own power and authority if the truth was let out. And they continue to carry on this deception to this day. So, while I have no knowlege of who is saved or not, I will continue to warn against false prophets. I am not EGW's judge when it comes to her salvation. But I am called to judge whether she preached "another gospel" or not. I can stand firmly on my judgement against EGW's teachings. And I will praise God if I meet her in Heaven! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 860 Registered: 4-2000  |
Ellen White repeatedly made UNINSPIRED (but inspiring) writings into "inspired" writings that she claimed came directly from the throne. The old saying that "your sin will find you out" is so true in her case. She never imagined that in future generations people could use computers to analyze her writings. God forgot to warn her to be more careful (smile). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 268 Registered: 6-2006  |
Walk, Ellen White condemmed all of us in "babylon" to having the mark of the beast and ultimately going to hell because we're either formers or never-beens. Is that okay? It looks as if you're spending more time reading her writings, than reading the Bible. Which is understandable, my SDA family does that. In fact, I hear "Sister White" more often than Jesus during worship services. Worship. Really, what's it to you if she's a false prophet or not? What's it to you if she's in Heaven or Hell? According to her she would have had to have been completely perfect in order to stand in front of Jesus (and all those books) to get to Heaven. According to her writings, where should she end up? Who do you really put your faith in? You know, Moses was a far greater prophet than EGW. Do you ever think of him and where he's going? How about Jeremiah or Jonah? Probably not, as I would think that your faith wouldn't be in them. We're fairly certain of where they are, of course because they pointed to Christ. It seems that all Ellen points to is the Sabbath and Seventh-Day Adventism. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4895 Registered: 12-2003  |
I find it fascinating that once again we are seeing the criticism of Ellen White yielding the most vehement defense from an Adventist, when discussion of the church's misrepresentation of Jesus and His completed work only meets with verbal sparring and feinting. We have seen this phenomenon over and over on other forums: heretical and even blasphemous things can be said about Jesus and the gospel, but they're just fodder for good arguments. Let someone besmirch Ellen's reputation, however, and people rise emotionally to her defense. The fact that this pattern continues to present itself is convincing me that the TRUE tie to Adventism isn't Jesus or truth at all. It is Ellen. Such strong ties cannot be explained logically. Why would people 91 years after her death be so tied to and defnesive of a brain damaged woman who wrote volumes of contradictory material which was often used in these people's own lives to wield control over them? Why does an attack on Ellen generate far more heat than does an attack on the Lord Jesus? I have some ideas about why this might be, but perhaps my ideas are less important than the actual fact of this phenomenon. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1588 Registered: 10-2004 |
Great points, Leigh Anne. According to EGW's own words, she would be lost if she was not perfect when she died:
There you have it. It doesn't get any clearer than that. So, Walk, even if Ellen's "gospel" were true, she herself has condemned herself to hell by dying with an imperfect character. How can you be upset with us, if her own "gospel" condemns her to hell? And if her "gospel" is false, then she is condemned to eternal hell in reality (Galatians 1:6-9). Jeremy | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2004 |
WOW, Just curious...did you expect a different answer than what was written here? This is a group of former Adventists who have rejected EGW as any type of prophet. While I cannot judge her heart I can look at her writings and know that they do not agree with the Bible. And yes, those writings do make me question her salvation because of the emphasis on works to be saved. Do I know one way or another if she is saved? No, as Timmy stated earlier "only God knows". | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 368 Registered: 7-2005  |
WOW, You asked us a simple question
This question is a closed question, it allows just two answers: yes or no, and there are 50% chances to receive a "no" answer. Many of us answered "no", Ellen was not a born again christian. After reading our posts you said
If you cannot bear the answer "no" to your question, why did you asked us? The average adventist knows that formers had rejected Ellen White and have a negative view of her. It's not a surprise to find that we no longer consider her as "sister White", a sister in Christ, a true christian. Our answer is predictible, and my question for you is "Why did you ask us this question if you cannot bear a negative response?" And second: why we are guilty for the fact that you are not able to suffer our answer? Why we are deemed as judgmental if we give an answer which does not fit your paradigm. You told us that you was blessed by Ellen White. So what? We are not here trying to destroy your belief in Ellen White. We are here to give honest answer to honest questions asked by adventists who are in transition, and who are open to a different perspective than what they learned in adventism. It seems that about Ellen White you are not open to the perspective of being a lost soul. As long as you are not really open to an objective evaluation, don't rush in judging others for sharing a perspective which you don't understand. Your experience forbids you to allow a different view about Ellen White. Just because you know that you was blessed, for you this is measuring stick and your final authority. As an adventist friend of mine said "I cannot negate my experience, all you say is a negation of the way Lord guided me" For he, staying long years in adventism is enough, he was guided to enter the adventist church and to remain there, "case closed". For him, it will be as "Where have you been Lord until now? Why did You allowed me to be deceived?" By a simple logic, he's position is infallible: "God exists, I prayed to Him, I was led in SDA church by Him, and certainly He will not have allowed me to be for such a long time deceived" So, you former, you are wrong, no matter what you say. Walter Martin said in an interview about this mentality, when talking about Bob Spangler, former editor of Ministry
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| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2006 |
When I saw the original post on this thread, I gave a little chuckle to myself. I thought about all the other threads started by WOW, the verbal sparring and feinting that Colleen has mentioned, the snideness of comments, putdowns, and the straw man arguments put forth by WOW. I thought...well, I wondered how long this would go on before it came to a head...it was actually a little longer than I had expected. I know this may not be popular, but I've never been one to be politically correct. I have discussed these threads with my husband over the past week or so, and as I said before, he had his ideas of why WOW was here, the verbal sparring and the feinting being among the primary ones mentioned by him. Colleen, I am not positive what your ideas are about this phenomenon, but I'll tell you mine. In my opinion, from my study and from my observation, both from within and from without the church, from the far right wing position that I held, to the incredible struggle I had when trying to free myself from this spiritual stronghold, and that's what it is...it's a spiritual stronghold. I believe it comes from the enemy of Christ. Paul says we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ellen White was a false prophet. Ellen White preached and supported a false gospel and a false view of God, the Trinity, and the Saviour. Ellen White had a young man who accompanied her for most of her life, who "showed" her things, perhaps even showed her what to copy. Ellen White was willfully deceptive as LoneViking has pointed out. I believe Ellen White's fruit shows she was under the influence of a spirit. Who was that spirit? I do not know for sure. I only can look at what I see, and with prayer and Bible study, come to a conclusion from those. As Colleen said, denigrate, even blaspheme the Saviour and you will get semantic arguments, wordsmithing, and misapplication of the Scriptures. Say one thing against the revered Ellen White, and see the vitriolic response you get. Why would this be? As Colleen said, it's not logical. It's out of proportion for what's being said about Ellen vs. what's said about Jesus. This is a spiritual battle. That's the tie to Ellen. The ultimate question is...what spirit? Susan | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 82 Registered: 8-2006 |
And one other thing while I'm getting myself deeper into hot water, Timmy, I agree with you. For some time, I've thought it very interesting that about the time Joseph Smith was killed, Ellen White got her first vision. I'm not sure it was a coincidence, either. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4897 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, I agree. Again, whenever I mention that Ellen White had help from an evil spirit, I meet with intense opposition, even from formers. There are many, of course, who completely agreeóbut the reaction against this idea is startling. Only a spiritual battle could make this issue so volatile. Only a spiritual stronghold could create this kind of defense for a false prophet; only a spiritul stronghold could hold people so tightly to a false gospel. Only a spiritual stronghold could keep people loyal to a church based on a false prophet and unbiblical beliefs. I totally agree, Susan. This response to Ellen as opposed to Jesus is not from Godóand there is no "neutral" place in the universe. If something is not from Godóif something keeps people from embracing the true Jesus and the true Biblical gospel, it is not benign; it is from the "domain of darkness", not from the "kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col 1:13). Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2979 Registered: 3-2004  |
I agree with both Colleen and Susan. I have often thought who that "young man" was who accompanied EGW all those years. This is a spiritual conflict. I know EGW is a false prophet. Both of you said what I think so eloquently. As for if she was saved or not when she died, I will have to agree with those who said, I do not know. Only God knows. Walk, you came on this forum, knowing lots of us are former SDA and that we gave up EGW and the doctrine of the SDA church. So, I do not understand your reaction to your question. Did you think we would give a different answer? God has led each of us out of adventism and brought us into fellowship with other Christians. I am so thankful for that and for each person on this forum. Each one has helped me in some way and all I can tell God is thank you, You are AWESOME. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 308 Registered: 11-2004 |
Okay, I have not heard of the "young man" that accompanied EGW. Can someone fill me in? | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 83 Registered: 8-2006 |
U2, here is a brief overview from an article on ellenwhite.org. You can read the entire article at http://www.ellenwhite.org/kaspersen/egw_eng3.htm In 1875, Ellen White wrote about "a young man" who had appeared to her for 26 years in her "visions" and "dreams". "The following night I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, immediately after I had been speaking. This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years." (Signs of the Times, Nov. 11, 1875; Counsels on Health, p. 465. Emphasis supplied.) This was probably her "accompanying angel" she quite often mentions in her writings. 26 years backwards from 1875 leads us to 1849, a time when Ellen White and other early Adventists still were involved in fanaticism and "Shut Door" errors. Who was this "young man" if he was real at all? There's no doubt that he sometimes showed her false visions, failed prophecies and messages which did not come to pass. If so, he was definitely not an angel from God. Ellen White often refers to this "young man" as "my accompanying angel": "My accompanying angel bade me...", "I asked my accompanying angel", "said my accompanying angel..." "The angel of God pointed..." etc. (Early Writings, p. 45,77,243; Testimonies, vol 4, p. 306 etc.). In the book Early Writings, Ellen White often refers to the "angel" who spoke to her, and it is quite strange that in one vision, this angel spoke to her in modern English (you, your, p. 20,40,77), while in other visions the same angel spoke to her in King James English (ye, thee, p. 50,52,62,64,66,73 etc.). And in one particular vision, the angel spoke to her both in modern English and King James English (you,ye, p. 64,119). Ellen White says (Letter 56, 1911) that she often felt the presence of God's angels while she was in the progress of writing the book The Great Controversy. It is, however, an established and incontrovertible fact that very little material in this book is original with Ellen White. The book is to a large degree compiled ("plagiarized") from various sources. It is difficult to imagine holy angels from God surrounding Ellen White while she practiced her literary kleptomania and stole material from other authors without giving them credit, in order to publish it under her own name. Does God sanction such practice? Who was this "young man", the "accompanying angel" who followed Ellen White through most of her life. It is quite possible that he was fictitious, an imaginary person who Ellen White "saw" during her trances. I have read in her writings about this "young man". No longer owning any of her books, I searched for this to sort of encapsulate the information. Perhaps someone else can give other quotes. Susan | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2006  |
This is just one quote from "The Complete Published EGW Writing" http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps--the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, "Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance. The destiny of souls hangs upon the manner in which they are received." {SR 385.1} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I got 46 hits found when I searched "accompanying angel" Alan | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2006 |
I am reminded of the words of an evangelist, I forget who, but he said that he went over to some foreign to preach and was elated that everyone was accepting Jesus, only to find out later that they were just adding him to all the other Gods lined up on their walls. Preach to Adventist, no problem, lets see now, we have Jesus, Ellen andÖÖ.. No wonder Iím going bald on top my head, itís from pulling my hair out! |
