Five Questions for WalkOnWater (and a... Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 5 » Five Questions for WalkOnWater (and any searching Adventists) « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through November 05, 2006Walkonwater20 11-05-06  2:00 pm
Archive through November 07, 2006Jackob20 11-07-06  3:46 pm
Archive through November 08, 2006Walkonwater20 11-08-06  11:36 am
Archive through November 09, 2006Timmy20 11-09-06  5:54 am
Archive through November 09, 2006River20 11-09-06  7:15 pm
Archive through November 10, 2006Grace_alone20 11-10-06  3:42 pm
Archive through November 12, 2006Susans20 11-12-06  10:19 am
Archive through November 13, 2006Timmy20 11-13-06  10:18 am
Archive through November 16, 2006Agapetos20 11-16-06  9:20 pm
Archive through November 19, 2006Helovesme220 11-19-06  10:31 am
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy

Post Number: 147
Registered: 8-2006


Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." Lev 19:19 (KJV)

I guess if you have drawn gray fuzzy lines between the new and the old covenants.... it would be appropriate to make an issue about "woolen underware." (?)

I can remember my Dad struggling about 'resting the land' every 7 years...
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 316
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timmy, I'm just glad that all those laws were given to the Jews and not us Gentiles. Who could keep up with all that?!


:-) Leigh Anne
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4971
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

H-m-m-móI think I get it now, Walkóyou're writing course material for you school of evangelism to explain to the students what they will encounter when they evangelize "formers".

There's a fact that I know doesn't even make sense to you at this moment, but it's true nonetheless: those of us who have left Adventism for the sake of Jesus have not based our decisions on logic or intellectual beliefs. Oh, our understanding is involved, and facts are part of the data that changed usóbut the real reason we left is that God Himself pulled the veil from our eyes and changed our entire paradigm so that the Bible suddenly became a new book.

No amount of explanation or logic or evangelism will either dissuade us of what we know, nor will it explain to those who have not experienced the transformation of the true gospel what we "believe" or why we believe. Jesus Himself has changed us and brought us into Himself through the curtain which is His body (Hebrews 10:20), and clever explanations and theology will not change the reality of knowing Jesus alone.

I'm sure, Walk, that you can tell we are all talking about something different from what you are explaining when we talk about the new covenant and knowing Jesus. In spite of the fact that our words sound much the same, our reasoning and conclusions are different and essentially irreconcilable.

The fact is, no matter how much Adventists explain how we are "wrong", the reality remains that we are rooted in Jesus and confident in our beliefs in a way that is not linked to mere logic or reasoning. Reality is much bigger than we can see; true eternal reality is not the physical world we see now.

Unless you are willing to completely lay aside your own beliefs and rationale, you will not understand what we are saying. Yet God asks each of us to be willing to lay aside all our beliefs and suppositions in order to allow Him to show us truth. It's frightening to consider suspending what we believe is truth in favor of neblous truthóbut God is faithful.

Whenver we want to know the truthówhenever we want to know if what we believe is truthóGod reveals himself.

Colleen
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 508
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John 4:23,24 says 'But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.'

Spirit and truth---two polar opposites that the Christian needs. Truth is the logical side of things. Spirit is the sensing, intuitive aspect of the soul that each person has. SDA's try to go it with just the logical, argumentative side while denying the spirit side. That's why they just cannot understand those of us who have left for what they call 'Babylon'.

Each of us formers had a dawning awareness of this spirit side of things. It's this side of things that allows us to evaluate truth on a much deeper level than the mind. The Holy Spirit is able to communicate with our soul and allows us to evaluate whether what is being told us is truth or not.

And sometimes, no matter how good the arguments seem, we know in our spirit that something isn't right and so we refuse to agree with the argument.
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda

Post Number: 339
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW,

Why would someone starting a school for evangelism write a book on former sdas?
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 144
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I keep getting sidetracked but let me try to briefly answer some of the questions posed.

Lone asked when our school of evangelism will admit we are Adventist. Well first of all we will not be Adventist in the sense we are supported or affiliated with the SDA Church. We will walk with SDA's as far as we can. We will attend the SDA Church unless we get kicked out. But it would have to be them kicking, not us. We will be very up front that our goal is to bring reformation into the church.

Some of the things Colleen mentioned in her last post are vital elements of any true Christian experience. Jesus becomes all in all. The Bible becomes a new book, filled with life instead of tired old doctrines that many can repeat in their sleep. A new hunger and thirst for Jesus is created. I have experienced this and I know the joy and excitement of talking with God instead of talking about Him.

I believe the Adventist Church was given a message for the last days but I am convinced VERY FEW ADVENTISTS CAN TELL YOU WHAT THAT MESSAGE IS. In my last two sermons, in two different SDA Churches, I have asked the audience these questions.

"Why should a person become an SDA? Give me one good reason!

What do we have that other churches don't have that is so important that a person should become SDA instead of some other denomination?"

No one could answer the question! Oh, they tried. They gave answers like the Second Coming, or our health message, or prophecy, or Ellen White, or the Sabbath, or the IJ, or the Sanctuary doctrine, or righteousness by faith, etc. But NONE of those are the right answer. They are ALL wrong. None of those is a good reason to become SDA.

At the second church, when I asked that question, once again no one answered correctly. Finally, as I was about to begin my sermon and tell them the answer, a man spoke up and gave the right answer.

I was ecstatic. Here was an Adventist who knew what Adventism had that most other denominations don't have.

I told the rest of the people that I could not believe what I had heard from them. Here we are supposed to be the Remnant Church and we don't even know THE REASON someone should join our church!

Now you are probably wondering what that REASON is. I am not going to tell at this time. But hopefully as you read my posts you will start to see the answer to that question.

The School is to help seekers after God to find that one message Adventists have that turns religion from drudgery to life.

I am very up front in my sermons that Adventism is in trouble and why. I have been amazed that I have been allowed to keep preaching. But I find I get almost no opposition.

So in our School we will be very up front. No beating around the bush.

WalkOnWater
tenblo0@hotmail.com
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven

Post Number: 642
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course you get almost no opposition. You haven't renounced EGW or called her a false prophet. And you still see the Sabbath pretty much the way most SDA's see it.

I can't wait to find out what the "one message Adventists have that turns religion from drudgery to life" is. Most of us formers have already discovered life over religious drudgery, and that's why we're no longer SDA's. The only message that does this is "Jesus only" - and the SDA's as a denomination certainly don't have that!

As far as I recall the unique message SDA's is supposed to have is directly related to the "3 Angels Messages" to get ready for Jesus' Second Coming by coming out of Babylon and worshiping God Who created the heavens and the earth (supposedly leave the Sunday churches and start keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy) to not receive the mark of the beast. That original "message" is still around, although many try to have as little to do with the IJ messsage as possible - which is the other part of "getting ready." Any other "Adventist message" that is not related to these core doctrines must be something new, and not part of the original "message." Or maybe you're thinking the one Adventist message is the Great Controversy theme, but besides the fact there is no Biblical support for it, the IJ is too wrapped up in that and it doesn't turn religion from drudgery to life.
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Both Colleen and U2 asked about the following.

"H-m-m-móI think I get it now, Walkóyou're writing course material for you school of evangelism to explain to the students what they will encounter when they evangelize "formers"."

My response:
No, not really. As Former Adventists, you have challenged the SDA Church probably more than any other group. I sincerely believe you have correctly seen many errors and problems with the Church and I agree with you on a number of those things. I do not agree with you on some of the ways you have attempted to right those errors. But I can say that I have greatly benefited from my time on this web site. It is helping me to get a picture of the SDA Church that an insider would not ordinarily have.

I am a strong believer that truth can afford to be closely investigated. I have asked questions and made statements to challenge you. I want to see if you have a firm foundation for what you believe. You have done the same with me and while sometimes it seems like attacks rather than discussion, you are challenging me make sure my faith is based on a firm foundation.

In my mind, one of the most deadly states is to circle the wagons and assume we have all truth and refuse to honestly look at what others have to say. That is the height of arrogance. And it is a sure path to error.

Another deadly error is to write off anyone or any church as being in total deception. That's why I love Lewis' equation of 2+2=? All Churches and individuals come up with the wrong answer but some are much closer than others. We can learn things from every one. I suppose we can even learn things from the Devil. "Persistence" leaps to mind.

Finally, I despise an "us/them" mentality. "We are good/They are bad". This is typical of a cult. Everything is black or white with little or no gray. We must always be able to distinguish between the person and his beliefs. But so often we reject people because they do not believe what we believe. That is what the Jewish leaders did with Jesus, with disastrous consequences.

So if I am writing course material, it would be along the lines of testing truth, challenging my foundation, willingness to really understand where others are coming from, rejecting sin but accepting the sinner, and recognizing that we are all in this together.

Because of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we can afford to be compassionate and understanding of those who see things differently. We can look at other points of view without feeling the need to attack someone with whom we disagree. This does not mean that there is no ultimate Truth to fight for or that there are not things that are evil or wrong. Far from it. You notice Jesus, like a Rock, stood squarely for TRUTH. He called sin by it true name. Yet he rejected no one. He loved all. It was then up to each individual person to trip on that Rock and be destroyed OR fall on the Rock and allow it to become a stepping stone to victory.

I hope in Godís strength, in some small way, to follow His example.

WalkOnWater
Tenblo0@hotmail.com
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda

Post Number: 342
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for your response WOW. I am not clear on the answer to my question. Why is someone who is starting a school for evangelism writing a book on former Adventists? From your response it appears as though you feel it is beneficial to study former Adventists so the people in your school can be prepared for challenges to their faith. Is that correct?

I attended a school for evangelism after leaving Adventism and in that school we didn't learn about how to approach someone based on their belief system. We didn't study what others believed. We learned that it was the power of the Gospel that changes lives and not our arguments or approaches. I guess I am not comprehending how studing former Adventists and a school for evangelism go together unless you feel the need to evangelize formers who attend another church or you feel the need to prepare your students for the questions from former Adventists.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4974
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I echo U2bsda's questions.

Walk, Jesus absolutely and directly exposed the hypocrisy and false teachings and practices of the Pharisees. In Matthew 23 He wasn't gentle or mild in calling down His seven "Woe to you's" and telling the Pharisees that they were whitewashed tombs and murderers. He didn't accept the money-changers in the temple, allowing them to "hang" themselves in their own time.

Jesus forcefully and clearly exposed the evil driving the Jewish leaders. He did NOT condemn the suffering victims of the Pharisees, but He was not even slightly vague about His grief, anger, and passion over the nation's evil, manipulation, and deception.

Walk, the gospel is clearly taught in the Bible aloneóand Paul is the foremost "explainer" of the "administration of this mystery" (Ephesians 3:9). Jesus revealed the new covenant and lived it, inaugurating it in His own flesh. Paul was appointed by God to explain it.

There CANNOT be any addition to Scripture or to the truth about Jesus or about salvation. Jesus Himself is our last-day revelation.

Ellen White cannot coexist with the gospel. She is a false prophet, and the Adventist church does not teach the pure Biblical gospel as presented in Scripture alone. No matter what you say about the gospel, as long as you must make it harmonize with Ellen White, you are missing its power, and you're missing its truth.

Until you can see the entire Bible through the understanding of Jesus, you are not understanding the gospel. The Old Testament never trumps the New; it cannot be understood or interpreted apart from looking back onto it through the "lens" of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection and through the establishment of the church at Pentecost. The Old Testament was a shadow of Jesusóand without Ellen in the equation, the Old Testament assumes its rightful place as a pointer toward the new covenant instead of as a coexiting covenant.

We on this forum are outspoken in our explanations of the problems with Adventism because we know that Ellen White is a false prophet. We KNOW Jesus, and we have experienced the new covenant. When you can finally deign to admit that Ellen might need to be re-evaluated, then you will discover the astonishing peace, presence, and power of Jesus.

As long as Ellen and Adventism are in the mix, you have an amalgamation instead of the pure gospel. You cannot mix light with darkness; they have nothing to do with each other.

Colleen
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 146
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Raven,

No, the answer is not the Three Angels Messages.

God bless,

WalkOnWater
Tenblo0@hotmail.com
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 147
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, what you say about Jesus condemning the Jewish leaders is true. And that is what I was saying when I said, Jesus stood squarely for truth and called sin by its right name.

But He also said, "Father forgive them." In other words, Jesus rejected no one. He allowed "who-so-ever" to come. Jesus did not reject. The accepting or rejecting was left up to the individual.

Jesus perfectly knew the Truth and knew where every individaul stood in realtionship to that Truth. Thus Jesus had the right to judge yet He allowed them to judge themselves. I am not Jesus. I do not know people's hearts. I do not accurately know exctly where they stand in relationship to truth. I see through a glass darkly. I may be very sure my theology is right but the Bible tells me that there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death. I must be careful in judging others and their theology.

The Bible tells of crazy men who screamed insults at Jesus and yet Jesus knew they were closer to the Kingdom than most of the sane people.

Since none of us are Jesus, we must be be careful in judging too harshly.

Remember, none of us scores a perfect 4 on the question, "What is 2+2?"

God bless,

WalkOnWater
tenblo0@hotmail.com
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy

Post Number: 151
Registered: 8-2006


Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it BigFranks? :-)
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 509
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since none of us are Jesus, we must be be careful in judging too harshly.

----------------------------------
If you're talking about judging people, I can mostly agree. But if you are talking about bad theolodgy, I ahsolutely disagree. Paul, in Galatians, went so far as to say 'if even an angel from heaven preaches another gospel to you, let him be anathema'--which means 'cut off'.

Those angels EGW took messages from certainly taught a different gospel from that of the Bible. On that aspect, we certainly are entitled to judge.

Bill
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 642
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not only are we entitled to judge a false gospel. We are commanded by Scripture to do so.
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans

Post Number: 162
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loneviking asked: "Tell me something, WOW. In this new evangelism school of yours, when are you going to tell potential converts that you are SDA"?

WOW said: Lone asked when our school of evangelism will admit we are Adventist. "Well first of all we will not be Adventist in the sense we are supported or affiliated with the SDA Church".

Colleen remarked: "H-m-m-móI think I get it now, Walkóyou're writing course material for you school of evangelism to explain to the students what they will encounter when they evangelize "formers"".

U2 asked: "WOW, Why would someone starting a school for evangelism write a book on former sdas"?

WOW answered: "No, not REALLY"(caps are mine for emphasis)... "So IF I am writing course material"...(again, caps are mine for emphasis)

WOW also said: "I believe the Adventist Church was given a message for the last days but I am convinced VERY FEW ADVENTISTS CAN TELL YOU WHAT THAT MESSAGE IS".

And also: "Now you are probably wondering what that REASON is. I am NOT GOING TO TELL AT THIS TIME.(caps are mine) But hopefully as you read my posts you will start to see the answer to that question".

Raven said: "I can't wait to find out what the "one message Adventists have that turns religion from drudgery to life" is"..."As far as I recall the unique message SDA's is supposed to have is directly related to the "3 Angels Messages" to get ready for Jesus' Second Coming by coming out of Babylon and worshiping God Who created the heavens and the earth (supposedly leave the Sunday churches and start keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy) to not receive the mark of the beast".

WOW replied: "Dear Raven, No, the answer is not the Three Angels Messages".

WOW: "That's why I love Lewis' equation of 2+2=? All Churches and individuals come up with the wrong answer but some are much closer than others". (earlier WOW said he thinks the SDA church is the closest)

Is it just me or does anyone else see how this is so representative of the SDA church in their evangelism? Of course SDA's would want to evangelize formers. With the church losing as many as they can convert, and the thinking that of course there must be SOME reason other than doctrine that would make these people leave "the truth", formers would appear to be the most fertile ground for evangelizing. How many of us heard about those who had been reclaimed from apostacy? What discussions have I read recently from those who had family and relatives saying it was preferable that a former SDA was living lost in the world to attending a church that was the daughter of Babylon?

How many evangelistic crusades, brochures, Discovery/Amazing Facts literature, Home Health Education Service, ETC ETC ETC HIDE the fact that these people are Seventh Day Adventists???? WHO else does this???

When a Mormon comes to my door, they have a name tag on saying who they are. When JW's come to my door, they identify themselves. The only ones that I know of who HIDE this, for as long as they can, are Adventists. What reason is most given? "Well, we need to be able to present our "truth" without people having preconceived notions about us".

This is why you won't see any advertisements on their true identity and reason they are at your door or in your mailbox. Deception. It's what this church was FOUNDED on from the very beginning, and what has continued for the 160+ years they have been in existence, and this is a prime example. It is a false gospel. Ellen White is a false prophet. Colleen, you are exactly right in saying Ellen White cannont coexist with the gospel, and I'll add IN ANY FORM.

I posted these questions and answers as I read them this evening when arriving from work as an example, at least for me, of the failure to answer forthrightly straightforward questions, equivocation, obsfuscation, feinting, and everything else I find abhorrent in Adventism.

WOW, don't take this as a personal attack, because it isn't. It's just another example of the mindset of those who are held by, and I firmly believe this, the demonic stronghold that is Adventism. Adventism has NO unique, special, end time message for the world that would or SHOULD make ANYONE join them, at least not any BIBLICAL unique message. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, every single doctrine of Adventism is clouded with error from EGW. It's everything I find disgusting, and if I come across as disgusted, I am.

Please don't bother to reply to me. I am bowing out of this thread, at least for the foreseeable future. I don't even intend to read any more on this thread.

Susan
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear U2...

My book is not about Former Adventists. The Book is about Adventism, exploring what is wrong and right with it. As I stated, Former Adventists have challenged the SDA Church and pointed out things which are valid. I want to be able to reference those things in the book. What I was attempting to say in my previous post was that I want to look openly and honestly at objections and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth.

WalkOnWater
tenblo0@hotmail.com
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda

Post Number: 344
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you WOW for your response. I appreciate your forthrightness and wish you the best in your endeavors.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4980
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walk, Rick and Loneviking have already stated the Biblical fact that we are commanded to expose and condemn false doctrine.

Your saying that Jesus did not condemn people, however, is patently untrueóand your reasoning underscores the Adventist view of Jesus as somewhat "less than" the Fatheróand it vividly underscores the very common Adventist belief that God will not kill or punish people.

This assumption is heresy. First, in Matthew 23 Jesus clearly condemned the Pharisees. He had the authority to declare their condemnation because He was God and received His authority from the Father (John 5:26-27). He did NOT say "Father, forgive them." He said that about the Roman soldiers crucifying Him.

Matthew 23:35-36: "And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation."

Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Jesus here declares that God alone can kill a person. People do NOT judge themselves. We are to fear no one but God aloneóbut if we are in Christ, God's wrath holds no threat to us. Jesus took it for us.

Romans 3:25-26óGod sent Jesus as a sacrifice of atonment to "demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunishedóhe did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

There are many, many more passages in the Bible showing that Jesus is the righteous judgeóthat God will judge and destroy the wicked. Jesus did NOT ask the Father to forgive those who, like the Pharisees, knew who He was, knew where His power came from, and didn't want to believe (see Matthew 12). He pronounced their doomóand at the cross, he justified his leaving sin unpunished during the preceding millennia by taking God's wrath for sin into Himself (Galatians 3:13; 2 Cor 5:21).

God alone condemns and takes life. It is one more example of Adventism's false gospel to say that Jesus didn't condemnóHe just "loved". It would be completely unloving for Jesusóthe God/Manóto have refused to condemn the blasphemy of the Pharisees and to identify it as the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:22-32) that victimized the people and kept them from knowing the mercy of God.

What you have said destroys the essence of God Himself and renders Jesus less-than-God. It is a completely unbiblical picture of God; it is not truthful, and frankly, WalkóI do beg you to to be willing to know what is real. Ask God to reveal Himself to you in truth, and to make you willing to give up even what you believe if it is obscuring the real Jesus.

I understand your reasoningóand I also know how different everything looks when one opens one's grip on "truth" and allows Jesus Himself to reveal Truth where before we had honored theology. Walk, God has much in store for you that you have not imagined if you will surrender to Him your convictions and belief in favor of knowing Jesus only.

Colleen

Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 149
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As for me, I am not Jesus. Neither am I Paul. If I were, I would feel a lot more qualified to judge.

WalkOnWater
Tenblo0@hotmail.com
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 150
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timmy, I can't believe it. You discovered THE REASON to become SDA! And you are not even an SDA.

Yep!! BigFranks is the answer!! LOL

Hey, if we cannot have some fun at this, why try?

By the way, I think those things have the wrong name. I have found by direct experimentation that they should be named "BigFlanks" since they seem to move you into new Hindquarters.

I wasn't supposed to tell you this but BigFlanks is the newest Adventist evengelistic tool. Feeding them BigFlanks is the new, covert way the SDA Church is using to grow its membership.

With BigFlanks it takes 20 percent fewer people to fill a church!!

Now if I could just button my pants when I go to church!

God bless,

WalkOnWater
Tenblo0@hotmail.com


Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy

Post Number: 152
Registered: 8-2006


Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, HA! It's good to see you have a sense of humor! The answer was obviously a joke but... what other Christian RELIGION has had a hotdog made just for them?
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 570
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 6:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My heart cried out for two Jehovah's Witnesses that appeared at my door some month or so ago. My heart also cries out for people in the Mormon church. And for people in foundational Adventism -- that is, people who have studied and believed in the message Adventism began with.

The degree that Adventists study & believe the foundational messages & beliefs of the pioneers is in directly opposite proportion to the degree of Christ-centeredness in their church. In other words, the more that they study & proclaim the early Adventist beliefs, the less Christ-centered and Gospel-preaching they will be. The less that they delve into the early Adventist foundation, the more Christ-centered they will be. They will then often resemble Evangelical Churches or Protestant Christianity (although it's still a "no-no" to even suggest casting off the Adventist foundation and going by the Bible alone).

It should also be noted that the foundational Adventist churches examine the foundational writings of Adventism much more than the more evangelical Adventist churches. They are much more aware of what the founders of Adventism taught and believed than Adventists who center more on Christ & faith. Hence, when you look on their websites, you can hear them passionately upholding early Adventist beliefs such as anti-Trinitarianism, Arianism, the Investigative Judgment & the Shut Door, etc. It's not like they focused on the "wrong things" in early Adventist writings. It's simply that they have read more and believed what they've read. For the more evangelical-like Adventists, they read only certain parts of Ellen White. Reading is done much more selectively. Reading it too much and too literally would clash with the image they have of Adventism. It's more beneficial for their beliefs to not investigate too deeply.

For one example, you will hear foundational Adventists talking about the inspiration of Ellen White, and they will freely admit belief in her near-parallel level of inspiration to Scripture, and will even get into arguments with each other about beliefs using Ellen White's writings as a sole base for their positions.

More non-foundational Adventists, on the other hand, may occasionally read Steps to Christ, Christ's Object Lessons or Desire of Ages, but generally read very little of her. As such, their beliefs of her level of inspiration are less strong. To be sure, these beliefs are developed rather independently of reading Ellen White's writings. They aren't formed based on what EGW wrote, but rather on their own predetermined beliefs about her inspiration (I should note that this predetermined decision is generally an unconscious decision rather than a conscious decision).

In other words, foundational Adventists are more willing to examine Adventism's foundation. Non-foundational Adventists are usually more content with a few quotes and independently-determined conclusions (that is, conclusions made mostly apart from reading foundational Adventist writings).

*****

Walk, I'm writing from the experience I've had growing up in Adventism and being an Adventist missionary myself, and then from further returning to a liberal Adventist area & taking turns in both extremes of Adventism. What I've written above I've found to be true.

With appearances, things are sadly fitting into what I described here. What I mean is that I made a thread for you & for us to examine the charges of "taking Ellen out of context". You haven't written there yet, although we've examined the "contexts" of several quotes already. I don't mind if you're too busy to do so. But please say so, because it kind of looks like the silence is because it's too difficult to answer. I've always tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, and I will continue to do so. But please let me know why you haven't responded to our examination of the "context" of EGW quotes.

*****

The extremely slow pace of examining the 5 questions on this thread also appears to kind of confirm what I just wrote above, however, with regard to Scripture instead of EGW. At the same time, we have talked about this and that issue, and it's gone all over the place here, so I can hardly lay the pace of the thread at any one of us specifically.

But despite the length of this post, I pray that we can return to Scripture very, very soon. I still await your replies.

Blessings in Christ above all,
Ramone

(Message edited by agapetos on November 21, 2006)
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 7:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone, Yes it has been a very slow pace indeed. It is primarily my fault. I have really not had the time I need to fully and thoroughly study out and then write up what I have to say. It is so much easier to simply respond here and there to certain posts.

I have not deliberately ignored any questions. As for the 5 questions I am nearly ready to post my response but unfortunately we are leaving for Oregon at 1 pm today and we will be gone until next Monday. We do not even have a phone hooked up at the new property yet so I will have no internet access.

So plan on about a week's silence from me. I can assure you I am very committed to answering your questions since it really helps me study, pray and think through these important issues.

If Former Adventist's theology is right, I want to know it. If it is wrong, I want to know that. I am keeping an open mind and am committed to following truth wherever it may lead.

Lord willing, I will talk to you again in a week. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving and always keep in mind the One who makes Thanksgivings possible.

Best wishes to all and God bless,

WalkOnWater
Tenbl0@hotmail.com
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 152
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 7:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One last thing. I see you underlining words, doing italics and editing your posts. How do you do that? I tried writing my posts in MS Word and pasting the copy into the Forum, but all my formating vanishes.

How do I keep my formating from being lost?

WalkOnWater

Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4985
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Formatting directions are available by clicking on the "Help/Instructions" button at the bottom of this page.

Colleen
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 574
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have a blessed trip, Walk, and see you back here when you get a chance. Do, do try to jump straight into the study, however! Don't let our other comments distract you. There is nothing more rewarding than learning who made the Covenants, and who the New one is between. :-)

Blessings & Happy Thanksgiving.
Ramone

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration