| Author | Message | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 84 Registered: 8-2006 |
Interesting thing that "accompanying angel" showed her about the Trinity and the plan of salvation, isn't it? "Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with his Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father we could see his person; and his countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that he had been pleading with his Father, and had obtained his consent to give his life a ransom, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon himself to open a way that man might find pardon for transgressing God's command... Early Writings page 126 | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1590 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, incredible Susan. Just as blatant polytheism as Joseph Smith's vision. Not to mention the begging with the Father part! Etc. Jeremy | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 85 Registered: 8-2006 |
So much is in that one passage, isn't there, Jeremy? Polytheism, Jesus having a body before the incarnation, Jesus having to beg the Father AFTER the fall to allow Him to save man when the Father didn't want to... It's almost inconceivable to me now that I devoured almost every word she wrote as coming straight from God. I am SO thankful to God for breaking that spiritual stronghold! Susan | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 205 Registered: 2-2006 |
I agree with Colleen and Susan, and I think Timmy's point about a Spirit is significant. (Ellen copied things from Joseph Smith, too, btw.) 10 years ago, I read through all of Ellen's writings just to 'be sure' I wasn't going off the rails by not being an Adventist (then, later, looking for the other things of heresy, etc.). When I read about that 'young man', and all the references to her 'accompanying angel' and the scent of roses, which came to her, my instant thought was "How like the New Age spirit guides." (Before the phrase 'New Age Spirit Guides'--mediumship) I had been closely in contact with persons within the New Age (before it was called this) in the early 80's and the similarities jumped out at me. I have never doubted that this was an ungodly spirit guiding her. When I read that she described how the 'angel' even moved her pen, beyond her own hand, at times, I recognized this as 'automatic writng' from a spirit, such as Edgar Cayce did (he had 'visions', too). It all gave me the creeps--a spiritual creepy sense...discernment, I believe and trust. Jeremy, do have any of these quotes handy? I do not, but I know they are there because I read them. (I threw out all her books) WoW, I increasingly am getting the sense of manipulation from you to those on this forum. You ask provocative questions, they answer honestly, then you judge them, especially, in your clear defense of Ellen White. It is like you are yanking their chains to get a reaction, but already have your answer set up for refutation. I think the 'personality disorder' thread revealed more about you than Formers. The veil of the Internet cannot reveal your true motives nor heart, but many of us feel uncomfortable and sense something is wrong here. I pray that I am wrong and that you will be blessed here as, initially, everyone has attempted to bless you and welcome you in Christ's love. As far as Ellen's eternal destiny--it is not my place to discern that and I don't care. She is dead, but her spiritual and personal harm lives on to and within my family, and I see it all the time and grieve it every day. They are the ones I care about for Christ, died and risen. Praying against that spirit~ Cathy | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2006 |
Absolutely, Cathy, there are numerous similarities in EGW's writings and experiences and mediums such as Edgar Cayce. Ellen also had out of body experiences and her descriptions of them are very much like the astral projection described by mediums. I agree on the accompanying angel being a spirit guide, and it is very creepy. She herself referred to him sometimes as her "Guide". Susan (Message edited by SusanS on November 02, 2006) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 269 Registered: 6-2006  |
One question I've always had when I hear about EGW being a prophet is, how does she measure up to the prophets of old? What were the circumstances surrounding them when they were hearing from God, or received messages from him? When I joined my SDA family some of the things used to "impress" me were the amazing circumstances surrounding Ellen's visions. She would fall into a trance and stop breathing, she had superhuman strength, she had her own personal valet angel, etc. Why did all this happen to her, and not to the major/minor prophets in scripture? Can you picture this happening to Paul? WOW, your last response was completely emotional. In fact, it was so emotional that I could picture the tears running down your cheeks as you prayed for all of us. Are you really just here to learn about us? Again, you can test all of what we are saying by doing research. It's so readily available. If Ellen is truly a prophet of God, and her salvation is secure, she'll stand the test. However, if she's not, wouldn't it be something you'd want to know? Jesus is the Savior, not Ellen G White. Our thoughts about her salvation shouldn't matter to you. Jesus already paid the price for us. We really didn't need another prophet. Really, unless you're her great grandson/daughter, her salvation shouldn't matter to you. It really shouldn't matter if all your faith is in Jesus. Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1591 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, Cathy, no I had never heard of EGW's automatic writing admission! Wow!! I totally agree with you Cathy, Susan, and Colleen about EGW having a demon guide. It surprises me how much opposition there is from formers even, on this issue. Stacie Spielman, a former medium who is now a Christian, talks about Ellen G. White on her website, and from her own experience in the occult she knows that Ellen G. White was an occultist! Here are some quotes from her website:
This is creepy stuff, indeed! Praise JESUS CHRIST for setting us FREE from the demonic hold of Ellen G. White!!! Hallelujah!!!! Praise His name! Jeremy | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2006  |
WOW, I've just been playing "catch-up" here going back to your post about how all this discussion hurts you. I've been out of touch with this forum lately but this discussion caught my eye. I am not a Former so the EGW issue is really not as volatile for me as the rest. I joined the forum months ago because I feared my daughter was falling into EGW's grip through her boyfriend at the time. Through much prayer that problem seems to have gone away for now because they broke up. However, "something" scared me very much for my daughter as she seemed to be drifting into SDA teachings. I didn't know what it was that scared me and I'm not one to "spiritualize" everything but in this God got me on my knees and convicted me to research SDA. I had honestly never heard of Ellen White until just before God led me to this forum and I'll be 62 years old on election day next week. I am Assembly of God and a very well known TV Evangelist by the name of Jimmy Swaggart is/was also Assembly of God. He had a great following and brought in millions of dollars for missions, etc (and much into his own standard of living I'm sure). Turns out he got caught in a motel room with a hooker and was/is heavy into porn, etc. HOWEVER, people were led to the Lord every Sunday morning on his TV show as he preached with tears running down his cheeks. He has repented (or so he says-only God and he knows). The point is: God uses the least likely people, including Swaggart, EGW, and millions of others both known and unknown to work His good. If you have been blessed by EGW's writings, Praise the Lord. I was blessed by Swaggart and even used to support his ministry. Some people say Jesus was just a great teacher. But He either had to be the Son of God as he claimed or He had to be a lunatic. He could not have been JUST a great teacher. Why does not that same test apply to EGW? She was either a great prophetess or she was a fraud. She can not have been JUST a great leader/teacher. So much for the perspective of a non-former. But several people have responded with this question to you: What answer did you expect from a group of folks like us? CW | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 208 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jeremy, If my memory works to do it (don't hold your breath; life is crazy right now) I can try to find the passage--where she speaks about the angel moving her hand and pen-- on the Internet or find it in one of my dad's EGW books. I absolutely know it is there. I still recall the shivers and horror, when I read it. I REALLY do NOT desire to ask dad for his EGW books, though, because it will give him false hope that I am interested in Adventism and it will drop the nickle in for him to obsessively preach Ellen at me, again. He wants to 'save' me before he dies; partly, he says, so he won't go to hell, having failed as a good SDA parent by his child's rejection of EGW/SOP, et all. He must writhe in torment over my Catholic sister. I was only Lutheran and, now, EO. Susan, It had slipped my mind about the astral projection--planets--thing. Some of that, though, I think she was influenced by Joseph Bates, and some, I think, her imagination went too far (she got a lot of attention for it, at any rate). ie. entities on Saturn or Jupitor, visiting with Enoch. (It's hard to keep track) Decades after I left Adventism, I realized that I and EVERYONE I had known had been believers in aliens, without knowing it, long before the fad over aliens hit general society. SDA ET's. Also, the SDA legend--from Ellen--about Chirst coming from, through Orion and heaven being beyond Orion comes absolutely, straight from ancient Egyptian religious beliefs--Osiris--where the gods dwelt and where spirits go after they die. In Hieorglyphics, the 5-pointed star means Orion. Isis holds it, often. Many, many other pagan cultures--from time's beginning--have Orion legends and monuments for Orion with similar themes. (He is everywhere in history and he is similar to Nimrod, the great Hunter). I hunted this down for years because I was always enchanted and enthralled with Orion and Jesus coming from it, when I was a child. As I studied ancient and modern comparative religions with modern archeology, Orion just kept popping up! My mother still believes this and, when my children were younger, I had to directly tell her to stop teaching this legend to them (among others). Especially, since I knew where it originally came from--the most occult, pagan religion on earth--ancient Egypt. It's all too ookie and woo woo for words. About Timmy's point. That spirit in Joseph Smith (who, now research has shown, was a occultist from childhood) does not have to be the Spirit in Revelation, but could be a specific, deceiving spirit passing on to the early Adventists. And, consider, that the JW's founder was originally an early Adventist and was, also, into ancient Egyptoloy... Consider this--the 'Health Message' thing--not even new with Mary Eddy Baker (did I get that correctly?), but the philosophy of becoming more 'holy' by what one puts into the body is an ancient Eastern belief--Hindu, Buddhist, etc.. Directly contridicting Jesus' own words. It is, also, an ancient Gnostic belief; and basic Gnosticsim (there are several different kinds of it), originally, came from ancient Egypt, down to the Greeks, then corrupted everyone to date. I am not demonizing Adventists here nor saying that SDA's have spirits (how would I know, except by indivudually encountering them in a person?), but some, if not all, of the early (and still held to by the conference) foundational philosophies and legends of the church are pagan. Years ago, I believe that God lead me to see that one of the fruits to look for--even one of the first--was doctrine (teachings) because if the doctrine is corrupted, then it doesn't matter how much one or a group-- love, act on fire for God, say the name of Jesus, even do miracles(?), give, do good works, have hundreds of members who adore their church, sing, shout and dance, etc.. (any group, Christian or not). If Christ is corrupted, then all is going off the rails, on another path. Perhaps, only bit by bit, little by little, but that's how it usually happens, anyway. I have no, not a doubt that Ellen loved Jesus in childhood, but, somewhere, somehow, along the way, something got her. And I think pride in herself and her 'gift'--partly or mostly from the attention she got-- was one of the open doors--portals--for this guide. Most of us have read of how she was, whenever someone challenged her--not so pretty. Actually, controlling, ugly and defaming to them, let alone shunning and damning them to hell. It must have felt good to feel that one had that much spiritual power. Since personalitiy disorders were brought up, I will say this outright--I have believed for years (after learning about them because of a husband) that Ellen White had a personality disorder and that those around her profoundly felt the brunt of it and dared not to cross her. We formers do dare and we will always be defamed and accused by someone for speaking the facts--not speculation nor emotions about her, although we have those, too--plain, documented FACTS. ~We have not been given the spirit of fear, but the spirit of power, love and a sound mind~ Cathy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2235 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have long been puzzled by my late friend Dr. Walter Martin on this topic. I have mentioned this before, but for newcomers I will at least put this out there for what it is worth. Dr. Walter Martin is respected even today 17 years after his death as one of the best cult experts out there. He read all of the major works of Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy and many others and he spent at least two years reading all the major works of Ellen White. I had the privilege of a personal friendship for five years with him. While he admitted that Ellen White made many serious errors and even prophecied falsely, yet he was confident that ellen White truly loved the Lord and was a born again believer. He told me there was just something different about Ellen White than all the other false prophets that he studied. This is just one man' opinion, but it is an opinion that I respect, since Martin was my spiritual mentor for so long. So that is why I am cautious about making judgments about her eternal destiny. I just wonder if some of the rhetoric on this thread is not just a little over the top. I believe we can point out so much about where she was wrong, but some of the vitriolic language does make me uncomfortable. And I am writing as one who has experienced the stupid rules that ruled our lives growing up. I was extremely angry for a long period of time. But 24 years later--maybe just me showing my age--somehow that anger has abated, and I am not entirely sure why. I do not believe for a moment that any of her visions were from God. I think there are medical and psychiatric considerations. I just find it a lot easier to blame the SDA church leadership for using her and manipulating her, because that is what my gut instincts tell me, but there is no question that she manipulated them as well. Stan | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 97 Registered: 7-2000 |
Walter Martin is "one of the best cult experts out there." Does that mean noboby can challenge his opinion and observation? Can simple, non experts, ordinary people not be able to recognize or reason when things are wrong? My experience within Adventism is; one could never figure out things for himself. The experts were always the ones who had the correct answers. Therefore if a person clearly saw things (biblically) different than the experts, he'd be wrong, and they were right. Is it an accident many people still do not trust themselves about what truth or the right answer is? Ellen White's truths haunt us even today. Just an observation (a simple one) | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2006 |
Good question, ìWas Joseph Smith a born again Christian?î Here is a snippet of his life from the ... Salt Lake Tribune Published: 12/13/97 Page: C1 BY VERN ANDERSON THE ASSOCIATED PRESS. (WOW comment: Note below how one receives the fullness of salvation.) In Smith's theology, Compton writes, ``A FULLNESS OF SALVATION DEPENDED ON THE QUANTITY OF FAMILY MEMEBERS SEALED TO A PERSON IN THIS LIFE. . . . This doctrine also makes it clear that, though Joseph's marriages undoubtedly had a sexual dimension, theological concepts also drove his polygamy. . . .'' Eleven of Smith's wives were between ages 14 and 20, nine were in their 20s, eight were in Smith's own peer group of 31 to 40, two were in their 40s and three in their 50s. ``I knew that Joseph Smith had married younger women,'' Compton said in an interview. ``But when I read all of the sources, the composite history is very troubling, striking, especially from the viewpoint of the young women.'' After Smith's death, his successor as church president, Brigham Young, married between seven and nine of Smith's widows. Young's counselor, Heber C. Kimball, married 11 more. In identifying 33 well-documented wives of Smith -- other researchers have placed the figure as high as 48 -- Compton found that in the case of 11 women, Smith's polygamy was polyandrous. That is, the women were married and cohabiting with their husbands, who mostly were faithful Mormons, when Smith married them. Yet not one divorced her ``first husband'' when Smith was alive. Indeed, they continued to live with their civil spouses while married to Smith. ``If one superimposes a chronological perspective, one sees that of Smith's first 12 wives, nine were polyandrous. Emily Dow Partridge recounted how in 1843 as a frightened 19-year-old she was approached by the Mormon prophet, who said ``the Lord had commanded (him) to enter into plural marriage and had given me to him. . . .'' So secret was the practice that neither Emily nor Eliza Partridge, a 22-year-old sister married by Smith four days later, initially knew they shared a common spouse. Later, the two sister-wives were ordered out of the Smith home by Emma, Smith's first wife, with her husband's anguished acquiescence. Helen Mar Kimball, 14-year-old daughter of Heber C. Kimball, wrote that after initially refusing when her father proposed marriage on Smith's behalf, she finally relented. ``I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have . . . brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions,'' she wrote. Toward the end of Smith's life, knowledge of his secret marriages began to leak out. William Law, Smith's second counselor in the church's First Presidency and an ardent polygamy foe, filed suit against the church leader for living ``in an open state of adultery'' with 19-year-old Maria Lawrence. In a speech a month before his death, Smith responded by flatly denying polygamy, which was illegal under federal law. ``What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one,'' he said. Was he born again? WalkOnWater | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 87 Registered: 8-2006 |
Cathy, I have read as well where Ellen said that the angel held her pen and wrote for her when (if I recall correctly) that she was too ill or tired to do it herself. I agree with your statements about Orion as well. As you say, that does not mean that SDA's of today have spirits but in my conversations over the years with friends in the church, I have heard stories of oppression by spirits (I even have my own stories). I do not know how much Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy wrote and what would be considered their major works. Ellen White had over 100,000 pages of writings if I remember correctly. Her major works - aren't they considered to be the Conflict of the Ages series? Also, so much of what she originally wrote, which many of these quotes and statements from her were in, have been altered in later publications, because the denomination itself sees the problems. That started as early as right after her death! It makes one wonder just how deeply Dr. Martin read into her works? I have his book on the cults. Did he research for 2 years just into Mrs. White? I'm not clear on this. Look at the book Questions on Doctrine that was published just for him? How much time would he have to have read what some of us have read? I had great respect for Dr. Martin as well. I loved to see him on television and I felt he was a godly man. But he did not see from the inside. I read what she wrote over almost 2 decades. I was a "historic" Adventist who believed the church had covered up and hidden what she really wrote because of the apostacy of the denomination. I have no problem saying as Cathy did that while I believe EGW loved Jesus as a child, something went wrong, terribly wrong. Looking at the documentation, the facts as Cathy pointed out, there are serious issues there. I pray for my Adventist friends who are still under the influence of EGW. I love them! I want them to be free! I can't talk to them about EGW though, because of the response I get. I have never used strong language when talking about her except one time when I said I believed she was a false prophet. I cannot even question Sister White's statements, though. So, I don't anymore. I keep my conversations centered on Christ and what He has done for us and how He loves us and works in our lives. I make no judgements about her or anyone else's eternal destiny. That's not my prerogative, but God's alone. We look on the outward appearance, and God looks on the heart. I can only see what I see, and that is the fruit of her life. I believe the fruit is rotten. As I said before, I truly believe this battle is spiritual. Susan | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 113 Registered: 8-2006  |
Mr. Water, You answer a question with a question. The point is that you obviuosly have no problem pointing out issues with Joe, but when formers point out issues with Ellen you get very defensive and strike out with accusations of judgmentalism. I am quite sensitive to this because this type of double standard is what I had to deal with during my last few years as an SDA. You have to maintain this standard in order to uphold your prophet, I understand, I used to do it, Dirk Anderson used to do it, many on this forum used to do it. As I read through the posts I am amused by how many times you have been asked what your real motives are. You seem to skirt around this question every time it has been asked. I won't ask it again because I already know it will be ignored. New question: Is there a book? What is the name of it? When will it be published? Tim | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 599 Registered: 7-2004  |
Just because EGW did not have the identical rotten fruit Joseph Smith had (sexual deviancy as pointed out above), doesn't mean she must have been born again. As others have pointed out, no one but God alone can know for certain EGW's salvation status. But we can know her fruits and whether or not she should be accepted as a true prophet or thrown out as a false prophet. We are asked to test these things, not blindly accept whoever claims to be of God. Some of the rotten fruit I have seen from EGW and her teachings are the decades of intense confusion over the basic gospel, and her harsh, condemning treatment of anyone who questioned her. And then there are the visions that don't agree with the Bible, and the failed prophecies. For these reasons, she is not to be viewed as the Lord's messenger, but a deceiver. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 600 Registered: 7-2004 |
By the way, EGW did have sexual deviancy also, just in an opposite way from Joseph Smith! What about the concept that sexual contact within a marriage should be as infrequent as possible... in contrast with Paul's instruction that married people should not abstain except by agreement for a specific purpose and time. And she was certainly preoccupied with stamping out anything that hinted of sexuality. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1592 Registered: 10-2004 |
As others have said, we can know EGW's fruits. And her fruits are rotten. But Jesus says in Matthew 7 that we will know by their fruits that they are ravenous wolves and that they are "bad trees." This means that false prophets are NOT saved. In fact, 2 Peter 2 and Jude indicate that God sovereignly ordains false prophets/teachers to be condemned. Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 270 Registered: 6-2006 |
Great points Timmy, Raven, and as always Jeremy! I hate to say this, but I'm really getting the feeling that Walkonwater isn't who they originally presented themselves to be. From reading their posts, it just doesn't make sense that this is someone who is an older, mature, "born again", Jesus only/Bible only male. They don't answer direct questions. Timmy, you were right, they answer questions with questions, and the questions are getting sillier and sillier. I may be off base, but Walkonwater's vocabulary doesn't line up with an older man. It just seems as if this person is a rabble-rouser trying to either get some attention or challenge the "formers" and defend SDAism. Colleen asked earlier if this person had joined so they could "re-convert us into Adventism". I'm thinking she was right. Walkonwater just doesn't seem to be serious about this forum. Hopefully I'm wrong, but the evidence is piling up! Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4900 Registered: 12-2003  |
I know it's really hard to look at a person we all considered a godly woman at some point and admit she was from the other side. Such an admission makes us feel vulnerable, stupid, non-discerningóbut rememberówe are ALL born dead and in bondage to the domain of darkness. How could we NOT be vulnerable to deception? God is so merciful! He calls us to Himself and gives the the ability and the spiritual light and the information we need to SEE that we have been deceived! It's really OK to call Ellen what she was: a false prophet who had a connection with an evil spirit who led millions of people astray and who hurt and damaged reputations of many who knew her personally. Admitting the truth brings so much clarity and grounding. And yes, I've thought, too, that Ellen had a personality disorder. I'm inclined to think she was possibly highly dissociative, even, perhaps, quite split in her personality. If this was true, it doesn't negate the spiritual influences of evil. Generally the more severely and successfully dissociative people are extremely bright and creative and extremely manipulative. They also harbor deep secrets and wounds where they give satan a foothold, a phenomenon Paul warns against in Ephesians 4:27. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 601 Registered: 7-2004 |
You may be right, Jeremy. And in fact, if EGW did remain a false prophet through the end of her life (as it appears she did), then clearly she was not born again and is condemned. However, I see the instructions to "know them by their fruits" and to beware of false prophets and false teachers is not so we can say who does and who doesn't have salvation, but so that we can keep from being deceived. That's why I think Walk's original question on this thread of do we think EGW was born again, has nothing to do with whether or not her and her writings should be accepted. The Bible doesn't teach us to accept someone's message based on whether they're born again or not; instead our criteria is knowing their fruits and comparing their message with the Bible's message. That's where EGW falls short and why we have all thrown her and her teachings out. Does EGW get a pass on being "condemned" because her mental problems set her up to be a tool for evil? I'm sure I don't know the answers, but it's hard for me to imagine that God would allow even a mentally disturbed born again believer wreak that much havoc in Christianity. Regardless of the reasons EGW was the way she was, and regardless of her eternal destiny, there's still no reason for any person to accept her messages simply because they contradict God's Word. |
