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Message |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 293
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |     |
Timmy, you bring up an interesting point!
In suggesting to my husband that I'd like us to take a Bible study together, his answer was that he didn't want to take one at the church we are attending because he didn't want it to have (in his words) a "Lutheran Slant". (Never mind that we've gone together weekly for the last 4 years)
Also, Cforrester, let's not forget that Jesus "made" wine and served it up to his friends as well!
glug glug,
 Leigh Anne |
Cforrester
Registered user
Username: Cforrester
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 2:30 pm: | |
hahaha - yup, you're right Leigh. I totally forgot about that
I understand about being a bit paranoid about slants. But self-study, thought and prayer have a way of weeding through "slants" in order to align our thinking to the Biblical slant. We're never going to have our thinking 100% correct or know everything. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 300
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 5:49 am: | |
I wonder if the rest of the 5 questions are going to be answered? We keep getting the "Sorry, I don't have time" posts, but then those are followed up with the long replies to the other challenges.
My mother would call that being "full of beans".
Ramone, you're being so sweet about that ~
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Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 323
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 2:19 pm: | |
Timmy said "Jesus did indeed live under the old covenant law and did it with perfection, but he also upheld the new covenant law."
I first really understood this issue when I was reading the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Levite and the Pharisee upheld the Old Testament law, but they were not considered to be "loving their neighbor" as is commanded under the New Testament law. It was obvious to the crowd listening to Jesus that the Samaritan who helped the man by the side of the road was the one who "loved his neighbor" even though (or maybe because) he wasn't an expert in the law like the Pharisee and the Levite.
Thoughtfully,
Hannah |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 124
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 4:49 pm: | |
Hannah, Good point. This story also had more significance to me after I understood the covenants. I never before realized that the Jews were simply keeping the letter of the Mosaic law by passing by. The law says that you cannot touch the carcass of an 'unclean' mammal. Since a human does not chew the cud and have a split hoof, I suppose he would be considered unclean, especially if he were not a Jew...
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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 512
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
I think that story (as well as the stoning in John 8) really exposes the difference between the two covenants...
The first focused on sin & basically how you could transgress it. You focused on how to stay clean and not become defiled. You would feel that you could be holy by "not doing this and this".
The second, in contrast, was much less concerned with remaining undefiled. Instead, the Covenant (Christ) came and invaded darkness. The Light reached out to touch the defiled and "un-defile" them. In the New, the holy invades the unholy and sanctifies it. This is why the command "love" fulfills the entire law.
WOW!! |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 2257
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 11:55 pm: | |
Ramone,
The New Covenant actually holds us to a much higher standard of holiness than the Old Covenant.
I am somewhat concerned with the way you worded your statement. The moral law of God is even magnified more in the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Grace is never a cover for sin. Notice that he told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more!
The difference between the two covenants is the better promises that the NC is based on. Not that sin is taken any less seriously. This was illustrated quite dramatically in the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Just remember what happened to them when they tried lying to the apostles over their sale of property:
"But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." 5When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him."
7"After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you[a] sold the land for so much." And she said, "Yes, for so much." 9But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things."
I don't see that there was any less concern about sin in the New Covenant vs. the old.
Stan |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 514
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 12:54 am: | |
There is less concern about sin in the sense that we are not as worried about defilement ruining our relationship with God...
In contrast, in the New we have already obtained the victory -- or rather, He has obtained us. We walk in that victory, and hence from a much more aggressive starting point than from the Old.
In the Old, as Moses said, if men could keep the law, that would be their righteousness. So there was always an effort to keep the law so that one would be righteous. The focus was on keeping law and on not transgressing. This is extremely apparent in the loudest way in the Ten Commandments, where the only positive command is the Sabbath one. Everything else is in the negative.
None of this does away with moral truths and standards, but the difference in the way we approach it is very different. When you begin walking from a point of victory, it's a lot different than starting to walk in the hope of attaining victory.
In the same way, if we walk through the world worried about defilement, we will have less of an impact on the world. Yet this One Man, Christ, walking in the power of agape love -- the Holy invading the unholy -- has changed history and the world forever, creating ripples that will never go away.
In Christ we are secure in His victory. So we walk in His love, much less worried about defilement and "do not". Rather, we are much more concerned about "do", and about extending His agape love & grace to those who do not yet know Him.
When Christ healed lepers is probably one of the clearest examples of this. Instead of standing back and staying clean/pure, Christ touched the lepers. Instead of catching their infections, Christ infected them with His pureness, health and holiness. All who touched Him were healed.
"The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
"The gates of hell will not prevail against the church."
As many have noted, the picture Christ painted of the church is not one where we're inside our walls fighting off the attacks of the enemy. Rather, His picture paints *us* at hell's gates! In other words, we are on the offensive now. The light -- Christ -- is inside of us, and hell has to stand back at the name of Jesus Christ. Hell is on the defensive!
Hallelu Yah!!
(Message edited by agapetos on November 10, 2006) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4932
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 9:35 am: | |
Actually, Stan and Ramone, I agree with both of you!
Stan is right; the new covenant's difference from the old is the "better promises" of Jesus, not a difference in how seriously sin is considered. In fact, the new covenant takes sin so seriously that we see the God/Man suffering infinitely for it. Sin in us is no less serious because Jesus died. As Hebrews 10:26-31 explains, it is even MORE serious than under the old covenant because now, instead of trampling on the requirements of the law which is a mere shadow of reality, we trample on the very blood of Jesus Himself. "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb 10:31).
The difference in the new covenant, however, is the difference Ramone describes. Now when we sin, we go back to the cross instead of being stoned outside the gates of the city. We have the living Law in us, and He Himself teaches us and calls us to holinessóa holines that is now possible because we have the power and potential of God Himself at work in us to release us from the power of our sin.
This indwelling power is why we as Christians need to take God's call to holiness seriously. If we fall into persistent sin, we are trampling on the blood of Christ and misrepresenting Him to the world. As Christ-followers we are obligated to submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit's discipline. We don't dare claim to be Christians and thumb our noses at sin.
But if we fall into sin, the blood of Jesus remains, calling us back into relationship and submission. And if we are Christians, we don't dare to condemn one another when we fall into sin. We are told to restore the sinner gentlyóbeing careful not to fall into sin ourselves. We are also told how to deal with intractable sin in Matthew 18.
None of us has an excuse for ongoing sinóand none of us has an excuse for slandering or condemning those caught in sin. Paul's warning in Romans 11 to the Gentile branches grafted into the olive treeóthat they will remain as long as they are not arrogantóis our warning.
This whole dilemma is resolved when we take it back to the cross. That is the only place of true persepctive.
Colleen
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Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 114
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 9:54 am: | |
Amen, Amen, AMEN Colleen! |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 2259
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 12:34 pm: | |
Ramone,
Thanks for your clarification, and Colleen also said it well.
There is a tendency in today's postmodern world and evangelical church to forget about the importance of obedience and holiness.
John MacArthur wrote a book in the 80's called "The Gospel According To Jesus" and I would highly recommend it. The book was written to counteract the heresy of 'No Lordship" salvation. There were, (and still are) people who teach that you can accept jesus as savior, but not as Lord. They actually wrote that anyone who raised their hand at an evangelistic meeting, or prayed the sinner's prayer, were automatically saved--even if they continued to live the same way after conversion as before "conversion". In fact you could even renounce the Christian faith and still be saved.
MacArthur wrote a stinging rebuke to this kind of thinking and documents so well the importance of truly becoming disciples and choosing to follow Christ.
I would also recommend R.C. Sproul's book "The Holiness of God." This will stir in your hearts a true appreciation of the Holiness and Majesty of God Here is a short quote from page 13:
"How we understand the person and character of God the Father affects every aspect of our lives. It affects far more than what we call the religious aspects of our lives. If God is the Creator of the entire universe, then it must follow that He is the Lord of the whole universe. No part of the world is outside of His lordship."
Religious skeptics point to the evidence and fruit that Christianity produces. They legitimately ask why the divorce rate is the same among professing Christians as among unbelievers?
Should becoming a "New Creation in Christ Jesus make a difference in our behavior?
Chuck Colson was quoted on the radio saying that these divorce statistics probably indicate that most of those who profess to be Christians are probably not truly born again. And he understood that there ARE reasons for divorce, and he was not being judgmental of those who were divorced, as sin does happen in Christian's lives. But the question Colson was asking was should it make a difference if both partners are truly born again, as to whether this makes it less likely to get an unbiblical divorce. What do you think of Colson's statement. Is he just being judgmental?
Stan |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 520
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 5:33 pm: | |
You know, actually I'm not very fond of guessing who is truly born again and who is not. A lot of people have a lot of different measuring sticks that they use to determine whether they (and others) are truly born again or not. I think the term has become a lot more widespread than it was originally used in Scripture. We've always had the problem of "professed believers" and "true believers"... but the born again label has kind of blurred it. If you ask someone if they're born again, the answer will be "of course".
I don't know exactly what to do with this realization, but I just kind of hope I'll pray for the Lord to lead me when I'm talking to anyone who seems to have more "profession" than true "belief".
In that respect, as well, I don't know how exactly to comment on what Colson said. Divorce is a very rough and difficult thing, and one that I don't want to get into at a hypothetical level. A lot of people experience a lot of very difficult pain, and when we talk to them on a hypothetical level it can be even more painful to what they've suffered. So when talking to them, I want to wait on God and ask Him for His heart for them.
This approach to "sin" I hope is similar to what Christ said in John 8 -- "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin... but if you know the truth (the Son), you will be free indeed." We can look at "sin" as an offense to God---and it truly is---but Christ took our offenses on Himself at the Cross. When someone is caught in a sin, I try to remember Christ's words -- that the person is caught in slavery. I want to receive His heart for them -- His heart that desires their freedom from that which enslaves them. This requires caring about them more than how much I think they've offended God or not. I try to leave that part to Him, and ask Him to help me help them into His freedom, because they need it and will be truly happy in His freedom. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 527
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 5:45 am: | |
I just ran across the cutest little example of how God usually deals with our sin. It's from this popular old children's book I just discovered today, called "Corduroy".
A little teddy bear named Corduroy in the department store is missing a button on his overalls. A girl named Lisa sees him and wants him, but her mother is finished shopping for the day. Her mother also points out that Corduroy doesn't look new and is missing a button.
After the store closes, Corduroy goes off in search of a button, probably thinking that's why he wasn't bought. He doesn't get one, and gets returned to his shelf.
The next day Lisa comes back with her own savings and buys Corduroy, loves him and takes him straight home to her room -- where she's already prepared a bed for him!
Then Lisa sits down and puts Corduroy on her lap. She begins to sew a new button on his overalls. She says, "I like you the way you are, but you'll be more comfortable with your shoulder strap fastened."
*****
Isn't it just like God!
We think He doesn't want us because were not new & perfect! We forget that in heaven, He is surrounded by perfection. It's not the idea of us being perfect that attracts Him to us. No, He loves us for who we are! Not only that, He even likes us!
He gathers His whole savings (by giving us His Son, the Father has given us His everything!) and comes to purchase us. And at His home He has already prepared a place for us! (John 14:2-3)
He bought us & put us in His arms before He began to "fix" us --- He purchased us while we're still missing buttons!
Then, taking us on His lap--in the place of secure comfort, tender love and affection--He "fixes" our problems & sins. He tells us He loves us the way we are (for who we are), not for how perfect we are.
"But," He adds, "you'll be more comfortable if I fix this."
He fixes our problems & sins not merely because His holiness demands it, but because He loves us! He wants us to be happy, blessed, and to be able to completely appreciate, receive and know His love:
"Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her to make her holy, having cleansed her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other bliemish, but holy and blameless... [He] cherishes her." (Ephesians 5:25-29 NIV,NKJV)
He wanted us to be radiant! He cherishes us and lovingly removes every stain, wrinkle & blemish in order to make us radiant, shining and beaming! Has your husband or wife ever lovingly given you a massage just because he/she wanted to make you feel better & relaxed? It's like that! Yes, you can be with your spouse while having stiff shoulders, but your spouse loves you so much that he/she wants you to be radiant.
(Message edited by agapetos on November 11, 2006) |
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