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Archive through November 06, 2006River20 11-06-06  6:22 am
Archive through November 07, 2006Agapetos20 11-07-06  9:24 pm
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River
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Username: River

Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 4:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone,
Thank you, unfortunately we are a people known for killing our own wounded. I read several of the response below you pointer and I intend to explore this question in-depth, when I say in-depth I mean it may take several days or even months.
Blessings today.
River
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone,
I did read all the responses to the pointer you gave me, the incident referred to I am well aware of. I will not answer to that here, I made the statement that we ěKill our woundedî and that is sufficient answer either there or here.
Yes, I see exactly what you talked about in the responses you made to the incident, the very reason I ask you the question I did was because you live outside the U.S. and perhaps could give me a different perspective.
I think on the face of it, you are absolutely right, 100%, now how did that happen? Two of us agree?
I have heard the word Agape love used in the past but never paid much attention to the term but I take it the word Agape love to mean ěChrist died for us while we were yet sinnersî. That kind of love.
You wrote: Note the progression: The world gets more wicked, and the church's love grows colder in response.
Yes I see exactly what you mean, we grow harder (colder) in response and lose heart for evangelism then proceed from there to crouch behind our church walls and proceed to devour one another. Is that about right? Well brother if it is, I know it is already here. Ramone, Iíll lay you ten to one odds that not 1 in 100 would feel free to go too a brother or sister at church and lay it on the table for earnest prayer, the real struggles they go through, I know I wouldnít, I feel like I would be butchered and used for fish bait.
So I crouch here behind my walls and go a lot of stuff alone, I examine my heart before the Lord and he ministers to me. Thatís probably good because with the love we got, we canít help each other much anyhow.
Anyway so this Agape love is meant to go horizontal as well as vertical if my concept of it is correct.
Your wife had the incident spoken of earlier pegged too.

Donít feel a need to give return answer to all this stuff, I sometimes forget that people have real jobs to attend. I am retired; my wife thinks Iím retarded. Ha.
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 507
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and for understanding what I wrote.

Coming from a perspective outside of the United States... I have a lot to share in that regard. I was born and raised in America, a complete American of Americans. However, two years ago I learned clearly that I'm actually half-Mexican.

(My father's family had disassociated itself with Mexican culture for two reasons, one, because they became Adventist and fled from anything remotely Catholic, and two, because of the racism that the parents knew in the first half of the 20th century, the parents sought to basically caucasianize their children as much as possible).

Being in Japan has made me a minority and shattered a lot of the images I believed about American culture. I've learned more about America, Americanisms, and so on since I've been here than I was ever able to see from inside. To many Americans what I share might sound anti-American (it did to my family awhile ago), but I love America & Americans. They're beautiful and it's a beautiful country. (But my love for America is not based on America being "right", "the best" or "number one").

The church in America has become incredibly political, and incredibly law-focused, basically believing that legislation leads to revival. Perhaps because of lack of knowledge of the two Covenants, most Christian Americans don't realize that what they're trying to produce is Old Covenant Israel. What I mean is that Israel had the right beliefs, the right laws, the right legislation, and a more perfect "morality" & code than any other nation on earth. Yet in spite of these things (and as Paul would say, partly *because* of them) their sin against God & prostitution to foreign gods was more of a stench to Him than the godless nations around them. We (the American church -- I still identify myself with them) have basically sought after the same things that did not help Israel, and are falling into similar traps. Not because of our great obvious sins, but because we haven't realized the Gospel, the New Covenant, nor its power. We've longed for Sinai instead of the Cross.

Of course this doesn't mean we compromise standards for a minute, nor does it mean we don't cry out when something is wrong. But the extreme efforts & energies we put into things nowadays is very worrysome. I highly, highly, highly recommend reading Philip Yancey's book, "What's So Amazing About Grace?"... Yancey cuts right to the heart of the matter & indeed all matters, and leaves us appreciative of and longing for the sweet fragrance of God's grace.

Recently I've also been reading a book by a Christian Native American leader, "One Church, Many Tribes" by Richard Twiss. I had better not describe it completely now, but this is also incredible... I hope to open a thread in the "theology" area some time and share some of what I've learned and am learning from it. To the American church, the issue of "Native Americans" is looked at as if it is a distant thing. But the entire country is founded upon their land and their blood. I believe with Twiss that America will not see great revival until the Native American issues are addressed by the Church at large.

The American Church is often very proud of its many charities, and proud of America (often seeing America's successes as the result of proper Christianity), but there is a great ignored injustice at the foundation & root of America. And it's not distant and in the past, because Native Americans are still living with it today. The prophet Hosea wrote that "the land mourns" because of bloodshed. Richard Twiss believes (and I agree) that this has established great strongholds of sin in areas. For example, where sins were committed against the Spokane tribe (and against Spokane Christians) in Washington, now the area is a popular place for racial hate-based militia training.

Here in Japan, the Japanese church is held trapped by the image of Western Christianity. She has not found her native expression of the Gospel. She worships as the western missionaries have taught her. This of course does not mean that there are not genuine Christians & expressions of Christ in Japan! By no means. But it does mean that there is a cultural clash between Christianity & "being Japanese" which Christians often feel and struggle with. And I believe (with many others) that this Western Packaging necessity has hindered the Gospel here considerably (the most cited figure of Christians in Japan is about 1% of the population).

In sum, the process of coming here has futher refined for me what I see as "the Gospel" and the emphases that are truly important -- versus the extra emphases that are *not* important. It has been a wonderful filtering process, and it's brought me to appreciate this culture and my own a lot more; and above all, it has brought me to appreciate Christ & His Gospel above all cultures and cultural expressions of Christianity.

I hope this answers the question a bit in regard to how I see because I live outside the U.S. We should probably start a new thread for this sometime in the theology area...

Blessings in Jesus Christ,
Ramone
River
Registered user
Username: River

Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone,
Oh yes I have seen some of the things you speak of, thank you for sharing some of your outlook with me and also your heritage. I also have studied some of the atrocities fostered on the Native American tribes, mostly here in the northwest. My heritage is Gallic on my motherís side and English on my fatherís side. I have a special interest in early Arkansas, my home, I spent a month last summer traipsing the forests to old cemeteries where you have to hike to get to, if you didnít know they were there you could pass 20 feet from them and not know.
Unfortunately I donít have the time to pursue my passion for history these days as my time is taken up in writing and study of the word, I retired and really went to work, most my days are spent staring at a computer screen.
Sometimes I miss the old IBM selectric but not enough to go back to one. Ha.
Yes, we who live here in America sometimes canít see the forest for the trees.
I see that your ěSpiritualî eyes are open and that is refreshing indeed.
Gods richest blessings
Rafael_r
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Username: Rafael_r

Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

®...the early church moved to protect from traditionalist and again tried to put God in a box, they said ěNo, he isnít in your Roman Catholic tradition box, here he is in our box, the written word.î...®

River, when you talk of the early church, of what church are you talking about? For me that is a confusing statement.
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rafael,
Sorry, during the early reformation, a swing of the pendulum to protect against the Roman Catholic traditionalism. the general evangelical church puts me in mind of the grandfather clock my wife has in the living room, it seems to swing left and right.
just my observation, my opinion only.I merely meant by that statement that we seem to want to keep things clear for our own benefit, not that we try to box God in really. that was just a metaphor.
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and the thing is, we have become just about as much traditionalist as the Catholic has only we have about 3000 different churches (organizations)
I live in a town with one red light and we have five or six churches. Again just my opinion which probably is not worth much. All this does seem comical to me at times.Sad at other times, but maybe that's how things keep balanced out.
Rafael_r
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Username: Rafael_r

Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

®...and the thing is, we have become just about as much traditionalist as the Catholic has only we have about 3000 different churches...®

May be that means that tradition is important and that we canĄt separate christianty from its traditions.

15So then, brethren, (AK)stand firm and (AL)hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether (AM)by word of mouth or (AN)by letter from us.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 (New American Standard Bible)
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 519
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colossians 2:8
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777

Post Number: 609
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We often speak in negative terms when we mention tradition ! ! Is tradition always bad?

Richard

Mwh
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Username: Mwh

Post Number: 278
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 3:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess not, but when talking about truth we can only count on the tradition/teaching laid out in the New Covenant.

Human tradition can be really hurtful to the body of Christ. Jesus is so Great, he really breaks a lot of bad human tradition, like the tradition of keeping women from learning and teaching the Word of God. I believe that there still are many bad traditions in the body of Christ that we have to deal with to have a healthy body.

As a sidenote, Rafael_r I think these verses are the ones pointed out by Roman Catholics to justify their traditions of man.

In Christ
River
Registered user
Username: River

Post Number: 91
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 4:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well seek777,
Iíll be glad to give you my opinion for what itís worth, Ha.
No, I donít think tradition is always bad, I might have spoken in the negative context about it because I do think we as human beings tend to get a little bit stuck in it at times, what I mean is that the Holy Spirit is a living presence within the life of each Christian, when we meet together, say a group of 100 or really any size group we become a corporate group. There is always the thing of balance to consider. We might tend to become a mite rigid.
However as a group meeting together with a common beliefs we do not have time or opportunity to go over our basic beliefs each Sunday or whatever days the group meets together, if we did that where would be the time for worship in prayer, song, preaching and all the other activities we are in involved in. so we leave our basics in place and go on. These basic beliefs are platform (so to speak) that we stand on. we live in a busy world and the time we meet together is short, so no, I believe the tradition of our groups are important, as I said we just do not have time to preach, teach, exhort why we have those basic beliefs or traditions and further more if we did that I would go crazy with boredom. Not only that, if we went into our basic beliefs every time we met it would lead off into what the church group down the street believes that we donít and maybe differences within our own group and we would end up devouring one another. So our basic beliefs are left in place, we attend our church group be it large or small, worship God.
We also need to value a good Pastor who is able to lead with wisdom and maintain order and balance.
As it was put in (Heb 5:12 KJV) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
So we donít need milk every Sunday, we need meat to grow into maturity with Christ. Live after the law of love and get the job done we were called to do. Now thatís probably more of my opinion that you wanted but there it is.
We need not be controlled by those traditions but by the law of love in Christ Jesus.

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