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Raven
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Post Number: 602
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great points and well-stated, Colleen. And in my personal opinion, I completely agree with you that EGW was "a false prophet who had a connection with an evil spirit who led millions of people astray and who hurt and damaged reputations of many who knew her personally." At the same time, I have great difficulty thinking it would be possible for me to know in fact what any particular person's state of salvation is; that's why I won't say she is definitely going to hell although I have many reasons to highly suspect she is. Maybe there are other factors I don't know. But that still doesn't change the facts we are asked to judge - that her life as we know it was that of a false prophet with teachings in direct opposition to the plain Word of God.
Grace_alone
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Post Number: 272
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Bible doesn't teach us to accept someone's message based on whether they're born again or not; instead our criteria is knowing their fruits and comparing their message with the Bible's message."

Raven, I totally agree. And the Bible makes it clear that it only takes one wrong prophecy.
U2bsda
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW said "Yes she was wrong about 1843 and 1844, and the shut door. Yes she copied. Yes she had ėvisionsî which may have been caused by brain injury."
------------------------------------------------

I was actually surprised to see that you said this. How can anyone who agrees that her visions were a result of a brain injury view her as any type of authority?
Cw
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Post Number: 122
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW, it seems that by bringing Joseph Smith, or any other of thousands of frauds, into the argumant it is an attempt to justify EGW by saying "she's not so bad because look at all these others that are as bad or worse". What happened to the gold standard of comparing all to Christ?

When my daughter was defending her boyfriend and his SDA beliefs I mentioned The Clear Word Bible and how corrupt it is. Her defense was "well, there are other translations out there that the main-stream Christian community accepts that are questionable". Same concept-justify the corrupt by stacking it against more corrupt instead of Absolute Truth.

Joseph Smith does not justify EGW. EGW and all the other false prophets fail when held up to the flame of God's Holy Word.
CW
Susans
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In a somewhat similar vein, I have been following an interesting discussion over on blacksda.com where some Adventists are discussing the merits of what some consider to be deception in Adventist evangelism by hiding their identity.

One person stated that what SEEMED like deception was deceptive itself because the REAL truth is that sometimes God advocates a course of action that on face value might SEEM to be deceptive. Because we are in a great controversy and the devil doesn't play fair, sometimes God reaches people with direct honesty at other times He uses more "subtle means" (quotes are mine).

When another poster called him/her on this, asking if the poster felt the ends justified the means, the answer given was "Not at all. I am arguing that when God commands, we should follow, and it is not always wise to proclaim oneself and one's motives to every person who happens along. "

An interesting statement, and food for thought during these discussions.

Susan

(Message edited by SusanS on November 03, 2006)
Ric_b
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Post Number: 601
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I must say that I am very uncomfortable seeing judgments about another person's salvation. I don't say this to defend ellen in the slightest, but to defend God. The God I know is too amazingly powerful and graceful for me to presume to guess at what He can accomplish.

Ellen might have been a mentally disturbed women, a tool of satan, or both. Her words may have deceived and enslaved thousands. But God is still bigger and more powerful than all of that, and if He chooses it will be done.

I am not willing to judge or second guess God. Someday I will know with certainty if ellen was saved. Until then, nothing is served by my speculation.
Jeremy
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Post Number: 1593
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rick, are you willing to say the same thing about Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, and Charles Taze Russell? That they may have been saved?

I think that it is important for us to at least be consistent.

Jeremy
Ric_b
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Post Number: 603
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have long asked for consistency from others, so it is certainly reasonable to ask the same of me.

Whether any of these enemies of the Gospel were ultimately saved is not for me to judge nor pronounce.

So Jeremy, are you claiming to have knowledge of God's choices and judgments? Or can we simply judge the veracity of these individuals' prophecies and teachings?
Mwh
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Post Number: 250
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some passages in Gods Word about false prophets.

"This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says about Ahab son of Kolaiah and Zedekiah son of Maaseiah, who are prophesying lies to you in my name: "I will hand them over to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will put them to death before your very eyes." Jeremiah 29:21

"The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: 'Hear the word of the LORD! 3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish [a] prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!" Ezekiel 13:1-5

"My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD." Ezekiel 13:9

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." Deuteronomy 18:20

It does not look good for false prophets.

Christ you are just!

Jeremy
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Post Number: 1594
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy, the following are some quotes I found. Let me know if you have read something beyond these.


quote:

"Up to the time of my first vision I could not write; my trembling hand was unable to hold my pen steadily. While in vision, I was commanded by an angel to write the vision. I obeyed, and wrote readily. My nerves were strengthened, and my hand became steady." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume One, page 73, paragraph 2.)

"The Lord has said, "Write out the things which I shall give you." And I commenced when very young to do this work. My hand that was feeble and trembling because of infirmities became steady as soon as I took the pen in my hand, and since those first writings I have been able to write. God has given me the ability to write. . . . That right hand scarcely ever has a disagreeable sensation. It never wearies. It seldom ever trembles.--MS 88a, 1900." (Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, page 91, paragraph 6.)

"I wept, and said, 'Impossible, impossible.' The words came, 'Nothing is impossible with God.' The effort was made and my hand commenced to write the things that had been given me." (Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, page 92, paragraph 1.)

"Early in my public labors I was bidden by the Lord, 'Write, write the things that are revealed to you.' At the time this message came to me, I
could not hold my hand steady. My physical condition made it impossible for me to write. But again came the word, 'Write the things that are revealed to you.' I obeyed; and as the result it was not long before I could write page after page with comparative ease. Who told me what to write? Who steadied my right hand, and made it possible for me to use a pen? It was the Lord." (Selected Messages, Book 3, page 37, paragraph 4.)

"At the age of seventeen, when all
my friends thought I was an invalid
for life on account of a severe
accident I had sustained in my
girlhood, a heavenly visitant came
and spoke to me, saying, 'I have a
message for you to bear.' 'Why,' I
thought, 'there certainly must be a
great mistake somewhere.' Again
were spoken the words: 'I have a
message for you to bear. Write out
for the people what I give you.' Up
to that time my trembling hand had
not been able to write a line. I
replied, 'I cannot do it; I cannot do
it.' 'Write! write!' were the words
spoken once again. I took the pen
and paper, and I began to write;
and how much I have written since,
it is impossible to estimate. The
strength, the power, was of God." (Sermons and Talks, Volume Two, page 252, paragraph 3.)

"With the writings that shall go in this mail, I have since leaving America written twenty hundred pages of letter paper. I could not have done all this writing if the Lord had not strengthened and blessed me in large measure. Never once has that right hand failed me. My arm and shoulder have been full of suffering, hard to bear, but the hand has been able to hold the pen and trace words that have come to me from the Spirit of the Lord." (Life Sketches of Ellen G. White, page 340, paragraph 1.)

"As soon as I take my pen in hand I am not in darkness as to what to write. It is as plain and clear as a voice speaking to me, 'I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go.' 'In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct [make plain] thy paths.'--Manuscript 89, 1900." (Selected Messages, Book 3, page 49, paragraph 2.)

"Dear Brother Amadon:

I have received your letter. I will send you copies of things taken from my diaries. These articles contain presentations and instructions given me, point by point. For instance, the evening after the Sabbath I retired, and rested well without ache or pain until half past ten. I was unable to sleep. I had received instruction, and I seldom lie in bed after such instruction comes. There was a company assembled in Battle Creek, and instruction was given by One in our midst that I was to repeat and repeat with pen and voice. I left my bed, and wrote for five hours as fast as my pen could trace the lines. Then I rested on the bed for an hour, and slept part of the time." (The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters, page 93, paragraph 2.)

"In the night I am aroused from my sleep, and I write in my diary many things that appear as new to me when read, as to any who hear them. If I did not see the matter in my own handwriting I should not think my pen had traced it.--Letter 118, 1898." (Selected Messages, Book 3, page 57, paragraph 1.)




I sure would like to read the manuscripts that have only partially been released, with ellipses. Who knows what's in that vault!

Jeremy
Jeremy
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Post Number: 1595
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rick,

No, I am not claiming to have any knowledge other than the knowledge that God has chosen to reveal to us in His Word.

I believe that God's Word is clear that we will know false prophets by their fruits and that they are ravenous wolves and that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and that they are a bad tree (Matthew 7). 2 Peter 2 and Jude indicate that false prophets/teachers are ordained for condemnation. Galatians 1:6-9 says that those who preach a false gospel are eternally condemned. God says that He is against those prophets who steal words supposedly from Him, from their neighbor. God says that anyone who adds or takes away from the book of Revelation will not have salvation.

I would like someone to provide a Scripture that says that we cannot know that any person is lost.

Jeremy
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 604
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, how about providing any Scripture that indicates that we can know that a person is lost.

Furthermore, Gal 1:6-9 does not indicate that any person who has ever preached a false gospel is eternally condemned, but that they are accursed (anathema). There is no indication that such a curse puts one beyond God's ability to save. Besides if you want to apply your claim consistently, if you or I ever taught the SDA perversion of the gospel, even in part, then we are--according to your words--"eternally condemned." Is that your claim?
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1596
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Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, of course that is not my claim. And those are not my words, they are the words of Galatians 1 in the New International Version: "If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:9b NIV.)

Regarding the Greek word, anathema, blueletterbible.org says:


quote:

2) a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction

a) a curse

b) a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woes

--http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&verse=8&strongs=331&page=1&flag_full=1




Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on November 03, 2006)
Walkonwater
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Username: Walkonwater

Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Once again, people are questioning my motives, others question whether I am really writing a book. Some wonder if I am really misrepresenting myself and I am really much younger (thank you) and immature (oh well, I guess you cannot win them all).

Some think I must simply be here to sow discord, or to try to convert Formers back to Adventism. Some cannot imagine how I, as an Adventist, could possibly say positive things about Ellen White.

Now if it was hunting season and I was a big mature buck deer with a great set of antlers I would not be running around wildly, crashing through the underbrush and attracting a lot of attention to myself.

It kinda feels like hunting season around here right now.

ėLayLowîOnWater

Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 605
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, if it is not your claim then please apply consistent principles and reconcile your conclusions about what this verse teaches regarding ellen and what it teaches regarding you, me and anyone else who mistakenly taught a perversion of the gospel at some point in our lives. I'll wait for your explanation.

Concerning Anathema from Vines "Later it acquired the more general meaning of the disfavour of Jehovah, e.g. Zech 14:11. This is the meaning in the N.T. It is used of (a) the sentence pronounced, Acts 23:14; (b) of the object on which the curse is layed,"

The Expositor's Greek Testament describes anathema in this context as "any who tamper with the truth of the Gospel are pronounced outcasts from the faith, and dead to the Spirit of Christ."
Cathy2
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Username: Cathy2

Post Number: 209
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 4:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

Those are not the quote, but thank you; it was less subtle. I am thinking, perhaps, it was in one of her letters and/or quoted in another's book. Perhaps, Walter Rea's, who did access the vaults to some degree?

I started looking for it on this site, but my mind and eyes got woozy:

'The Complete Published EGW Writings'--
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.
dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default

My mind is saturated from Ellen, now. I need a break. Going to go do our own church things with the kids all weekend!

Thank you for all the help you do with quotes, Jeremy.
Cathy

Timmy
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Username: Timmy

Post Number: 114
Registered: 8-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 5:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, You said, "Some cannot imagine how I, as an Adventist, could possibly say positive things about Ellen White."

I guess I missed that. The tone I see is how can you possibly say all the negitive things you did and still claim her as Gods end time remnent prophet?

Just a thought.
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 764
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Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 5:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CW,
I don't make it to FAF as often as I would like. I haven't "seen" you here when I have checked in. Please tell me how everything is going with you daughter.

Sorry for the interruption to the thread,
Denise
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1597
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rick, I believe that there is a difference between those you describe and a false prophet who mocked and fought against the gospel unrepentantly their whole life.

Jeremy
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1598
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Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy, I found the following on ellenwhite.org. Apparently, Ellen even claimed the same thing for Uriah Smith!


quote:

According to A.C. Bordeau, a respected SDA minister and close associate of the White's:

Many years ago, when the late Uriah Smith was writing Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, while Elder James White and Ellen G. White were at my house in Enosburg, Vermont, they received by mail a roll of printed proofsheets on Thoughts on Revelation that Brother Smith had sent to them. Brother White read portions of the same to the company, and expressed much pleasure and satisfaction because they were so concisely and clearly written. Then Sister White stated what she had been shown as follows: "The Lord is inspiring Brother Smith--leading his mind by His Spirit, and an angel is guiding his hand in writing these "Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation." I was present when these words were spoken. (signed) "A.C. Bordeau"3

--http://www.ellenwhite.org/daily.htm




Jeremy

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