| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 273 Registered: 4-2006  |
"So you agree with Moore's statement after all." WOW No, I do not agree with him. "All Moore is saying is that we must learn to trust the Holy Spirit instead of looking to ourself as the font of all wisdom. The only One who is totally dependable is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." WOW I think the question here is about the term "ourself". I believe that we have to trust in ourself in the sense that the Spirit is a part of ourselves, which is in communication with the Holy Spirit and talks with the rest of ourselves our soul. "Perhaps you have not lived long enough to find out that "me, myself and I" are extremely untrustworthy. I have let myself down more than anyone else on earth. God has had to hit me over the head many times with a 2 by 4 to help me learn that lesson. But as I recognize my undependability, I am moved to depend on God more and more." WOW Again, it boils down to what we consist of, since I became a Christian I learned more and more to depend on myself (my spirit) than ever. "As for your question about spirit,soul,body. Do you think I am insane? LOL" WOW Umm, I would very much like an answer in the form of a Yes or No. I'm not sure if you by your statement above mean Yes or No. "We are in the middle of another discussion. Unlike the Chineese Plate Spinners, my brain is too feable to spin too many plates at the same time. (grin)" WOW I didn't want to discus with you, I wanted to get an answer about where you stand on that issue. May the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ reveal more of himself to you every moment of your life. Amen. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2006 |
Walk, I see very well the point you were trying to make in your November 08, 2006 - 10:14 pm: post. So lets talk a little about Law and the enforcement of it. We have all, everyone of us, broken the Law and made Gods original covenant of non-effect, so to speak. The whole world threw his contract in his face by breaking his Law. Just as your contract was enforced, god will enforce his, make no mistake about that. Walk, I think Lone would agree, you cannot un-break a law, try it, and then go to court and say ìJudge, I am sorry, I will do better next timeî he will say ìIím sorry son, you have broken the law and me being a righteous judge, I must pass sentence. Godís righteousness far exceeds the judge on the bench. You cannot un-break Gods law either, you may very well go back an attempt to keep it to the letter, but the fact is, you have already broken it. You have lied, stolen, committed adultery in your heart, any one of these laws broken at any one time brings certain punishment, I say again, you cannot undo what you have done by later law keeping, that is where Adventist go terribly wrong, Christ took our stripes, our punishment, our death, look at him as he is slapped, spit upon, bruised, and ultimately crucified, look at the darkness as the father turned his back on the Son, hear the pleading cry, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me? That was the punishment for our lawbreaking. Jesus paid, so we could go free (or) be freed from judgement, paid our fine, so to speak. Now you Adventist say ìOh yes, he paid, now I must keep the law to the letter, but that is illegal, you are throwing his payment back in his face saying ìIts not enoughî, (Rom 2:12 KJV) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Now we in Christ are under a new law, the law of love, it is still not a free ride as you supposed, we have two requirements, we must love each other and we must forgive one another. The law of love goes vertical and horizontal. That is what Agapetos wife was talking about when she said ìIt is ìcrucialî as to how the church treats the Haggerty situationî. We are not free to practice deviant sexual behavior, lie, cheat and steal, commit adultery, practice evil thoughts, view internet porn, buy or sell Meth. Love does not, cannot practice these things, I said before, the law of love is vertical and horizontal. I am free from the old law, but not from the new law of love in Christ Jesus, we here are not free to hate you Walk as another human being, you think that we here resent the Adventist people, I have many Adventist friends, what we donít love is false doctrine, the enslavement that false doctrine brings, you see, we are free to hate lies, falsehood, even fight against it. Thatís why so many have asked you to be a little more straight forward. 2+2 does not communicate ìCan we agree?î we are not mind readers. Now some may disagree with some points I have tried my most honest best with, thatís o.k. I wonít get in a huff. My feeble attempt at using marriage analogy to you Walk was to sincerely try to make you see the futility of reconciliation with Adventism with any here, there can be no reconciliation with what we view as false doctrine. The word ìHusbandî was not my point and as Raven said it was probably a poor analogy. Our Sabbath of rest is in Christ, we rest in him and I rest my case. You are free to begin cross examination. By the way, good luck on your land deal, are you moving to Oregon from? River | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear MWH, When I was in the Assembly of God Church I saw exactly what you are speaking of when you say, "since I became a Christian I learned more and more to depend on myself (my spirit) than ever." This dependiing on "my spirit" often caused much damage to the body of Christ. People would say, "I sense a word from the Lord in my spirit." Sometimes what they would say made perfect sense. But other times it was obvious the "word from the Lord " was coming straight from their personal likes and dislikes or from someplace worse. While I was attending the AOG Church I was dating a very attractive woman who had been the runner up in the Miss Virginia Beauty Pageant. One of the church members had eyes for her and came to her one day and said he had a "Word from the Lord". The ìwordî was that she should break up with me and hinted that she should go with him. Now if that had been my only negative experience with people ìfollowing the spirit withinî, I would have written the guy off as being a jealous wanna be. But I saw this type of misjudgment of what the Spirit was saying over and over again. It created some of the biggest messes you can imagine. The New Age Movement preaches the same message of trusting the spirit within. The difference between the world's way and the Christian way is the focus of our attention. The world looks within, while a Christian looks away from self to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. The only way an airliner gets to its destination is by communicating with something outside of the plane. It uses the earth's magnetic field to determine north. It uses the GPS satellite system to determine its exact location and the exact location of the destination. What if an airline captain said, "I don't trust the earth's magnetic field or the GPS satellite system. I will ëcheck the spirit within meí to sense the direction to New York City." You would say,"Are you crazy?" and start looking for a parachute. Where we get and what we do, depends on where we look. This was true, even for Jesus. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he SEETH the Father do:" John 5:19 To determine what He does, He looks outward to something outside Himself. Like a good airline pilot, He connects to the Satellite (His Father) which is outside this world. Leroy Mooreís statement is given from this perspective and I agree with it wholeheartedly. It is true that the Holy Spirit can and does prompt us but that is done in the context of looking to Jesus, not in the context of looking within for guidance. God bless, WalkOnWater TenBLoÿ@hotmail.com | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2006 |
I would also like to make clear here, a large difference between the old law and the new law of love in Christ Jesus. When we break this law of love in Christ Jesus, the Bible clearly teaches that we ìHave an advocate with the Father 1 John 2:1. I was indeed reminded of this when I suffered a bad stroke last year, I was a mess, even though I set here every morning and read the Bible, seven days/365 unless I am on the road, when the stroke hit me I was alone, I could not see to dial 911, my arm was useless, I knew what was happening, I shoved down five aspirin, I knew I was in trouble, the first thing on my mind was meeting God, I desperately tried to remember verses from the Bible, I did not want to meet God with un-confessed sin on my life, the only thing I could remember was ìWe have an advocate with the Fatherî and I prayed this blanket prayer ìJesus forgive me of any sinsî and I continued to try to dial 911 on a spinning phone, do you know I accidentally hit 911. I wonít bore you with further details, but folks I am dead serious when it comes to Bible doctrine. That is why I encourage to study, try to walk in the spirit at all times, our life can end in a heartbeat, his commandment is that we love one another, it is not grievous but it is a down right serious issue. Thatís why we have tried to explain to you Walk about this Love in Christ Jesus, our Sabbath of rest 24/7. No turning back to the slave pits of Adventism, false doctrine, EGW, no more making bricks without straw. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 832 Registered: 1-2003 |
IOW: We cannot trust the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth...but we can trust the spirit of prophecy to. Sorry Walk, I'll trust the Holy Spirit. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 325 Registered: 11-2004 |
WOW "It is true that the Holy Spirit can and does prompt us but that is done in the context of looking to Jesus, not in the context of looking within for guidance." I think this is where you will find the foundations different  I am assuming you believe spirit = breath. If I am wrong please correct me. Based on the assumption that spirit = breath I can totally understand your statement. Others who believe that their spirit was born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit see it differently. The "looking within" is not actually looking within, but listening for that still small voice. We can know God's will on many things from the Bible like "is it God's will that I be saved?", but some things like "should I buy that property" the Bible does not mention. The Christian who does believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in their own spirit may commune with God and listen for His still small voice of guidance. Notice that the listening within is not listening to their own wants and desires, but listening to what He wants. And many times the answer will not be what we want, but He often changes our wanter so our desires line us with His. Anyway, that is a whole different issue. I look forward to hearing your responses to Ramone's questions. As an Adventist I have a very vague understanding of the covenants - it was all very confusing. I had assumed that the new covenant was because Jesus died for us and the old covenant was about the sacrificial system. I would really like to hear how an Adventist would explain it. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Pheeki: Please forgive me if I sound a little exasperated. You say, "IOW: We cannot trust the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth...but we can trust the spirit of prophecy to. " Pheeki, I am sure you are an intelligent person. Where did I say anything remotely like what you say I said. I would respectfully ask you not say things that you know to be the opposite of what I am saying. Such posts are not helpful. And I would ask the same of everyone. I have tried very hard not to respond in kind when foolish things are said. Suggestions that I go out and eat a bunch of eggs to get myself straigtened out, or continued assumptions I am only here as a lacky of Ellen White are not constructive or helpful. Remember there are others who read these posts and saying such things does not make one look very Christ-like. I thank you in advance for your courtesy. WalkOnWater TenBLoÿ@hotmail.com | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2006 |
U2, interesting distinction between the two kinds of listening. Thanks for your post. WalkOnWater | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 275 Registered: 4-2006 |
WalkOnWater I think U2bsda pretty much summed up what I would like to have said to you in response. Also the topic of what we consist of as human beings is for another discussion. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2006 |
Question # 2 - What was the "first" will? What we commonly call ìThe First Will & Covenantî was actually not the first. The first ìWillî was given after Adam and Eve had sinned. It involved the promise of a coming Savior and went into effect with the death of a lamb. The Sinai Covenant (often referred to as the First Covenant) established an entire system of worship which included the ìregulations for worshipî, all the washings and sprinkling of blood, the animal sacrifices, the feasts and holy days, the ìearthly sanctuaryî, the ìHoly Placeî, the ìlampstandî, the ìtable and the consecrated breadî, î, the ìgolden altar of incenseî, a ìsecond curtainî, ìa room called the Most Holy Place, the ìgold-covered ark of the covenantî which contained ìthe gold jar of mannaî, ìAaron's staff that had buddedî, and the ìstone tablets of the covenantî, and the ìcherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement coverî. Since a ìLast Will and Testamentî cannot go into effect until there is a death, The Sinai Covenant was put into effect by the sacrifice of animals and the blood of the sacrifices was sprinkled on, in, and around the sanctuary, as well as on the veils, and on the furniture of the Sanctuary. Interestingly I have not yet found anywhere it says the Ten Commandments themselves were ever dedicated with blood or sprinkled with blood. I need to study this more. BIBLE INERRENT? For those who insist the Bible is inerrant, you might want to check this out. Paul, or who ever wrote the Book of Hebrews, made a mistake in his placement of the furniture. In Hebrews 9 he says the golden alter of incense is in the Most Holy Place. If it was actually in the Most Holy Place, it could only be used once a year when the High Priest entered. However we find the Alter of Incense was used regularly. It seems strange Paul would make such a glaring mistake since he was such a well educated and dedicated Jew. Ex 40:26 has the Alter of Incense in the Holy Place. Hebrews 9:4 places the Alter of Incense in the Most Holy Place. WalkOnWater TenBLoÿ@hotmail.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4928 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, great point about not being able to "un-break the law" once we have broken it. That is exactly the problemóand exactly why we need a NEW contract based on better promises than ours! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 494 Registered: 7-2000 |
Nice try, Walk, but the phrasing in the original language of Heb. 9:4 strongly suggests that the writer was tying together the symbolic signifigance of the Alter of Incense and the Most Holy Place. The reading could well mean that the Alter sat immedietly in front of the curtain. The Jews (and middle easterners in general) don't approach measurements of length, time, space etc., as we here in the west. Besides, WOW, if the Bible does have errors then who decides what those errors are? Who decides just how great those errors are? And how could you be sure that you had found all of the errors? Of course, SDA's don't care as they have EGW who is just as authoritative as the Bible. Bill | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4929 Registered: 12-2003 |
Walk, the notes in the NIV Study Bible point out that the author of Heberews placed the altar of incense in the Most Holy Place (MHP) in order to show its close relationship to the ark and the inner sanctuary. When the high priest entered the MHP each year, he took two things: incense from that altar, and blood from the sacrifice. Exodus 40:5 and 1 Kings 6:22 also describe the altar as belonging to the inner sanctuaryóand the purpose is to show that the symbolism of the incense on that altar is inseparable from the presence of God and the ark of the covenant. "Inerrant" doesn't mean there are no dissimilarities. It means that nothing in the Bible teaches contradictory reality, and that the parts all fit together to create a complete whole. Even this apparent "contradiction" between Hebrews and Leviticus is not a contradiction. It shows us the integral function of the incenseóit shows us that the Jews saw the function and presence of that fragrant smoke as part of the atonement offering to God. I highly recommend that you read chapters 2 and 3 in Grudem's Systematic Theology in which he discusses the doctrine of the word of God. He examines in detail these questions of "errors" and "contradictions" and whether or not the Bible can be trusted to mean exactly what it saysóand whether or not it is enought for knowing what God wants. Reading Grudem would be a quicker way to communicate these ideas than would be my putting them forth here. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4930 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oops--sorry, LonevikingóI didn't see your post! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 495 Registered: 7-2000 |
No, don't be sorry. I find it interesting that both of us wound up with the same answer using several different sources. My sources were the commentary from the Jerusalem Bible (Catholic) and Reineckers Linguistic Guide, along with The Expositors Bible. You used Grudenms. There are a lot of sources out there that agree. I wonder if WOW will be surprised to see that? | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2006  |
I believe Ex 30:6 shows how close the alter is to the ark: Ex 30:6 6 Put the altar in front of the curtain that is before the ark of the Testimony ó before the atonement cover that is over the Testimony ó where I will meet with you. NIV Also this: TABERNACLE OF ISRAEL The Altar of Incense. The altar of incense (Heb. mizbeah miqtar qetoret) occupied the middle space near to and in front of the inner veil (Ex 30:1-6; 37:25-28; 40:5; Lev 16:18). It was, however, reckoned as belonging to the Most Holy Place (1 Kings 6:22; Heb 9:4), apparently on account of its great sanctity. (from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright © 1988.) and this: INCENSE The altar of incense was more closely connected with the holiest place than the other things in the holy place, the shewbread table and the candlestick. (from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998, 2003 by Biblesoft) and one more: INCENSE A portion beaten small was to be "put before the testimony in the tabernacle," i.e. outside the veil, before the golden altar of incense; from its relation to the ark thus it became" most holy," as was also the altar of incense (Ex 30:10). This incense was to be kept exclusively for Jehovah; the penalty of making like incense for ordinary perfume was "cutting off." (from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998, 2003 by Biblesoft) Seems at least these sources tied the alter with the Most Holy Place. Alan | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2006 |
I don't know if this is a correct assumption. I wanted to add to my post above that although Hebrews 9 appears innerant it is definitely infallible. Alan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1612 Registered: 10-2004  |
Another answer is the King James translation: "golden censer." The Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary says the following:
Jeremy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 615 Registered: 7-2004  |
Well I'm sure whatever the answer is, Paul did indeed know what he was talking about given his pedigree and his intelligence, not to mention we're talking about God's infallible Word. That's why inerrancy generally means inerrancy in the original language. Translators are a different story, and that's why it often takes a little digging to figure some things out. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 85 Registered: 9-2006 |
Walk, It is obvious to me that you have at least been exposed to essential doctrine, By essential doctrine I mean grace alone, the AOG, Baptist, Methodist, most all evangelicals hold the same essential doctrine, no need to name them all. Yes there are slight differences in doctrine but not enough to get in an uproar about. Also just because you had some bad experiences with ignorant folk should not be enough to make you turn your back on essential doctrine. I do agree with you that if you experienced the kind of ìMessesî as you put it that it is time to move on to something more suitable if you felt the people were in an extreme mess, although you could have stayed and tried to help them the best you could as you say you want to help Adventist but I wouldnít blame you for leaving either. I really donít know how long you were with AOG, that I am not clear about, but you seem as though you have been exposed from what I read of your writing, as I said, to essential doctrine. Even if AOG didnít suit you there is the whole Evangelical world of churches. My question is why go over to a cult organization? You think the AOG was a mess, my friend who is an Adventist told me the other day he and his wife and another couple stood up and walked out of the church because the church, in his opinion was a ìMessî. I really donít know the situation there and I donít want to know, my point is Walk, there just tend to be ìMesses where there are people, it just seems to get that way. Now all this is still not meant in an offensive manor but vagueness doesnít get a whole lot of anywhere. You wrote: Do I praise God when people in the church treat me badly or do I strike back or self righteously shake the dust from my feet and remove myself from that congregation? Well do you? AOG? You also wrote: That is why I can minister in a dead SDA Church. That is why I can shed tears for them instead of throwing arrows of accusation. I was once where they are now. Did you do the same for AOG? You also wrote: Actually I started on the road to becoming a pastor at PUC but the writings of Ellen White brought so much despair into my heart that I finally dropped my dreams. Then why be upset with Pheeki? You also wrote: You have moved out of the church and I have moved back into it. My big question is, why? Am I some sort of masochist? You also wrote: That is why I rejoined the Adventist Church. God made it VERY CLEAR to me that is where He wanted me. My human nature did not want to go. How did he do that Walk? You also wrote: I am writing a book on Adventism and I feel it is very important to understand as accurately as possible why people leave and why people join the SDA Church. Did you get it written walk? I am not trying to get your dander up walk, after you said you had left AOG for Adventist church I really began to ask myself this question, what would it take to make me, or for that matter, anyone else here to leave what we believe is sound Bible doctrine and go into/return to what we honestly feel in our heart is false doctrine and by our very own actions, support that false doctrine with our finances, time, effort. Now I wrote: No turning back to the slave pits of Adventism, false doctrine, EGW, no more making bricks without straw. Boy was I being smug, I repent openly of that, I take note of myself. I am having humble pie tonight. |
