| Author | Message | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2006 |
Could someone help with a definition of "cessationists"? I always thought it meant those who believed the miraculous gifts stopped after Bible times. However, now that it comes up, I'm not sure I've ever really read the definition anywhere official. Frankly I don't even know I had heard the term while SDA. SDAs can't technically be cessationists in order to believe EGW, yet for all other purposes it seems they put any active involvement of the Holy Spirit in a box for "latter day events" due to their fear. I was very much in error as to understanding the role of Holy Spirit as Adventist. After all, if I could sense the Holy Spirit's leading/speaking for myself, I might be tempted to question SDA teachings. And that's exactly what happened. Aliza | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 607 Registered: 7-2004  |
Here's the definition according to Wikipedia, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism
It then goes into a bit more detail to explain the various type of cessationists. | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks, Raven. I didn't even know there were types of cessationists. I thought the point about concentric cessationists--those who believe miraculous gifts still occur in unreached areas is interesting. From spending some time in Haiti I would have to say it would be very hard not to believe God (and the forces of evil) were not working in ways far different from what we see openly occurring in this country. But, to put the tread back on track, it appears that hearing God speak to us individually is not outside of the realm of possibility even for cessationists. Aliza | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 168 Registered: 1-2004  |
What Stan said about the Holy Spirit only speaking to us through the Bible makes quite a bit of sense coming from a Protestant. Because the beginning of Protestantism was when some people decided that the "Church" didn't have authority on a par with the Scriptures. Eventually, however, it was realized that when you don't trust the Church and you don't trust Tradition, the only thing left to trust is the Bible. Of course when you only have the Bible and you yourself become it's interpreter, there become as many interpretations as there are interpreters... truth becomes something decided by the individual based on what they see in the Bible. SDAism somehow figured out how to put back the "Church" and even "Tradition". We have the General Conference as the Church, and Ellen White and the pioneers as Tradition, so the individual person no longer has to interpret the Bible for themselves anymore. So what Stan said makes sense to me. Jeremiah | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 66 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen wrote: I have never heard it implied that cessationists believe the Holy Spirit does not communicate directly with Christ-followers. My understanding was that cessationists believe the sign gifts ceased with the apostolic age. Colleen, for a cessationist to believe that these things ceased with the apostolic age and still believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us directly today would be to introduce a flaw in pure logic, would it not? If I programmed that into software it would crash. In fact for him to have ceased anything would not meet the demand of pure logic, he would have to cease himself. The Bible is perfect in logic, if I transformed the complete Bible into artificial language I do believe the program would run. I do not wish to attempt to transform God into a mathematical concept, donít get me wrong, but I do use logic in Bible Study, if I come on something that seems to defy logic I try to find out why? Where is the ìBugî? I already know that God doesnít have any ìBugsî so it has to be me. One day I met with my pastor and a miracle had occurred at church the previous day and he said to me ìboy, I was sure shocked at the miracle the Lord did yesterday, werenít you? And I said ìNoî and he looked at me sort of bewildered and said ìWhy?î and I said ìI would have been surprised if he didnít.î If we donít expect God to answer prayer, then to pray is not logical. The Adventist ìProgramî has ìBugsî all in it, so do the writings of EGW, so does the cessationist theory. Half logic is not logic at all, half truths is not truth at all, it is a lie, false, it is the cannon fodder the devil uses to enslave. Just as half logic cannot coexist with pure logic, half truths cannot coexist with pure truth for that would not be logical. the Poor Adventist carries his half logic to Sabbath and feebly attempts to put another rung in the ladder to his half heaven but I am afraid when the gets to the last rung he will find no heaven at all. | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2004 |
<<-- Fires up debugger...break point on 1844...hopes to save people a lot of problems by stopping the program there... (Non-techies are saying, 'What?...') | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2006 |
I do understand where the sessation-ist is coming from historically, the early church moved to protect from traditionalist and again tried to put God in a box, they said ìNo, he isnít in your Roman Catholic tradition box, here he is in our box, the written word.î And thatís exactly were the traditional sessationist keeps him today, they carry him to church, hold him up and say ìHere he is ì The Catholics go to their ìChurchî and say ìhere he isî ìExplain him to us Pope, we just po ignorant folk.î Now the Adventist go to their church and hang him up on the nail of the Law just inside the door and look to EGW to explain him to them. Now when us ìGibberizers pop up they all say ìGit back down in yo box boy, you de debilî but no sooner than one is stuffed and cuffed, two more pop up, I tell you we are a plague on the land!! An evangelist prayed and said to the Lord ìLord, I want to preach in there but they wonít let me in because of their traditionî the Lord said ìNo use worrying yourself to death over it, I been trying to get in there for yearsî. Oh well, I donít mind if I get stuffed and cuffed, PTLA. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2006 |
Finds codeline 1844,inserts codeline no return= "Temple clean". system crashes,checks with EGW about problem, EGW says insert me in codeline 1844 and title the program "Ghost in the computer. Ha. | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2004 |
hehe. good. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4914 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, just for the record, I am not a cessationist. I just never understood that cessationists believed the Holy Spirit doesn't communicate with believers, because even cessationists believe that people are sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit. I agree that there is a flaw in logic to say the sign gifts have endedósuch a claim would limit the power of the Holy Spiritóbut on the other hand, I can also see that since not everyone and not every place seems to experience the "sign gifts" as frequently as gifts like teaching, helps, mercy, encouragement, preaching, evangelism, etc., that a cessationist could believe the Holy Spirit still speaks and gifts people even though the "sign gifts" might not always be evident. At the same time, such a belief, as I said above, limits the Holy Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2997 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I sit here laughing as I read your post of 4:21 pm. I know just enough about computers to understand you. Diana | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 319 Registered: 6-2005 |
River, I know nothing about computers, but your post of 3:59 makes me laugh. Your description reminds me of the prairie dogs I saw in the meadows when I recently visited colorado. They were popping up everywhere! PTLA. Lori | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Colleen, we have a couple different horses here to consider, we have the hard cessation-ist, he says ìSince the cannon has been completed, therefore God no longer speaks todayî and yet he has not a lick of Bible evidence to back that up, if you can get a rope on him and tie him to a corner of the stall he will admit it or use this passage in the Bible in order to get the rope off 1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. That is so feeble he breaks the rope and runs away. He is unbreakable. Then you have soft cessation-ist who admits that scriptures do not back him up, now he is a Missouri mule, he says ìShow meî Raise the dead or something and then Iíll believe youî he donít try to break the rope, he just sits on the rope and you couldnít move him if you beat him with a two by four, I had more in mind when I made that statement, the former and not the latter. Now probably, you gentle ex-Adventist folk who havenít been down to the E-Vangilical theological cemetery are blessed, you just say ìI got Jesus and thatís enoughî now my own base camp is the cross, the one who shed his blood for you and me, it is ample, free at last, free at last, thank God Iím free at last. To laugh, to weep, and sometimes when I meditate on what Jesus has done, I do both at the same time. PTLA Lori. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4915 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, you have a great sense of humor! (And I loved your 4:21 post as well!) Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thanks for the vote in the humor section, however, if I have offended anyone, please forgive; we all probably disagree on certain points in theology. I want to take the opportunity to get a plug in for a couple of great theologians, I highly recommend them. You can find them over at Bible.org or click on the link here. The program is free, however, if you take advantage of the program please give what you can. These guys will give you a fair and balanced look at theology; they give the viewpoint from all sides, for you who have not had the opportunity to attend a seminary formally, it is a great course, if you take it you will find we have more in common than you thought. The class is taught by Michael Patton and Rome Dyke, it is on video or sound format, I do believe at least Michael is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. So if you really want to understand, these guys are good Evangelicals so you donít have to worry about them, as I said they give a fair and balanced look from all sides anyway. http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3119 So whether we agree or disagree, we all agree that Jesus is Lord of all. Blessings River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 496 Registered: 10-2002  |
Stan, I'm curious... what did you think of this comment? Your brother in Christ, Ramone | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2006 |
in no way am i on par with most of you regarding theology, but i always believed that the Holy Spirit speaks to us constantly. yes, we need to have a true relationship with Him to know His voice, but it can come from another person, emotions, our conscience, a circumstance, etc. i have never limited Him to the bible alone. perhaps i am wrong, but i found this thread interesting and the take some of you have regarding how God works in our lives. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 72 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, I sense that your approach to theology is irenic in nature and semper reformanda. Correct me if I am wrong. With the buzz word of today being ìtoleranceî that is so prolific and the bent of the world is to tolerate anything and everything, at least here in the U.S. we are told we must be tolerant of illegal aliens, deviant sexual practice, religious practice no matter what they believe as long as itís not Christian, better not teach or say Jesus name in school. My question to you is, over the last few years especially up to now. Do you sense in your spirit the alignment of forces for good and evil? In other words, do you sense, in your spirit, a time coming, when the true Christian will have to stand and be counted, regardless of our theological concepts and possibly a time and that soon, when we as Christians will be forced to take an apologetic or possibly even polemic stance for Christ, not with each other but the world at large. A time, and that right soon, when the true Christian will be clearly seen. In other words, a time when the true church body will stand out. Sorry for the 50 cent words but I did so want to make my question as clear as I possibly could. The reason I ask is that I seem to sense somewhere deep within my spirit that the time is fast approaching when we will be required to say ìYes Lord, even to the death or I donít know even know himî now this is not with mark of the beast in mind although I donít discount it, but a sure alignment of these forces of truth and error against each other. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2006 |
As I sat this morning and thought about my question to Ramone, my mind went to this scripture and I looked it up. 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Paulís fondness for Timothy is evident and Paul tells him to be watchfull and it seems Paul is giving his beloved timothy some final instructions, now it seems to me that Paul senses his upcoming and final hardship, he says itís coming upon the time when he will be ìoffered upî or to put it bluntly, killed, how did Paul know this? Did a voice from heaven thunder at him ìPaul, they are going to kill you!!!!!î did he quickly turn in his Bible to where it said that he would be killed? Absurd, Paul had the same Holy Spirit living within him that we have. I believe Paul was so finely attuned to the Holy Spirit that he just knew and he also knew that he must be prepared for the things to come, some of us have testified to different ways of communing with God yet we each are settled in that he does speak to us. The point I want to make is that we also need to be finely attuned to the Holy Spirit, whatever the means he may use. I am convinced that Paulís letter to Timothy is Gods letter to us, but it does not cover every personal situation in our life, we live in today, no doubt after Paul was gone Timothy faced many situations, I believe it was Jeremiah who sought God and found him in that still small voice. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 499 Registered: 10-2002 |
River, I had a friend who was praying once and remembered the scripture from 2nd Timothy, "For the time will come..." but the Lord stopped him and said, "The time is now..." That said, what I've written about Ted Haggard (etc.) on the thread "A Sad Story" in the Theology area basically covers a lot of ground about where I believe we "stand" today. In Matthew 24, Jesus says that "most" peoples love will grow cold, and many will leave the faith. The word "love" is agape, and this is a love that Christ has showed us in His death for us. In other words, Christ is talking about people who know of His agape love and have participated in it -- He isn't talking about the world primarily. He's talking about the church's love growing cold. The reason this happens, He said, is "because of the increase in wickedness" in the world. Note the progression: The world gets more wicked, and the church's love grows colder in response. And in so doing (leaving agape love), believers leave the faith and the gospel. Our loving reaction in this hour is incredibly crucial. Many, many Christians are getting harder and harder in response to what they see as the grievious sins of society. And in so doing, they are leaving the heart of the Gospel, even while professing it from the pulpit. Yes, in my spirit I sense an alignment of the forces of good and evil, but I see both manifested in the world and both manifested in the church. I have great grief for the church in America, even more than for those who don't know Him. Those who don't know Him can respond easier to the Gospel than people who think they know the Gospel but are hardened by self-righteousness, hatred, politicalizing & institutionalizing Christ, and forgetting His love. In his book, "What's So Amazing About Grace?", Philip Yancey quoted someone as saying, "Until we have proper legislation, we won't have true revival in this country." Yancey rightly noted, "Could he have that backwards?" The truth is that the American church---and most especially the political arm of it---is hyper-concentrated on Law-based living instead of Grace-based living, and the erosion of love & reconciliation is a direct result. Sometimes I fear more for my friends in the "right" (pun intended) than for my "godless" friends on the "left". |
