| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 96 Registered: 9-2006 |
Nicole, This thing is subtle, that is why it's hard to tell where they are coming from, it took me a along time, along with much prayer and meditation. looks to me like it has fell to your lot to deal with it too. you really won't find "common ground" did you ever see one of those lizards who pulls a white film over his eyes? Thanks Jacob for links, I will use them, right now my grand daughter just came in and I am giving her a new guitar, she doesn't know it. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 280 Registered: 4-2006  |
River, SDA is rooted in the occult by having Ellen White talking with demonic spirits / "angels", having her pen moved not by herself but from beyond and communicating with her dead husband. Not long ago we had a thread about those issues here on the forum. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 303 Registered: 6-2006  |
Nicole, I hear you! One thing I absolutely hate is that I'm not equally yoked with my husband. Years ago he stopped living the SDA lifestyle, seeing movies, eating meat, occasionally drinking wine, and for the past 3 years comes to church with me and the kids on Sundays. Recently he asked when I would be interested in sending our kids to the Academy. I said I wasn't considering it because I didn't believe in EGW and especially the IJ and didn't want the kids to be exposed to them. He was shocked! He couldn't believe that I said she was a false prophet. And regarding the IJ he said "well of course it's in the Bible!" You could feel the tension rising and we decided that it would be better to talk about it another time. So even though he has let go of the culture, he's still under the veil. Which amazes me because according to the prophet and doctrine he believes in, he's going straight to Hell, do not collect go, do not collect $200. River, EGW and her writings are rooted so deep in the Adventist's minds and hearts. Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 97 Registered: 9-2006 |
Mwh, Now that sounds like a possibility, have you ever seen some one use a wegi board? you are talking about automatic writing? I just gave my grand daughter the new guitar, I wanted her to have a quality guitar. She said "your giving that to me?!!" I think when I finally understood salvation I said "your giving that to me?!!" | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 98 Registered: 9-2006 |
Leigh Anne, It does sound to me that prayer is the only thing that will break that choke hold. In one place Jesus said that (Mat 17:21 KJV) Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. However if you fast, do be sure you are physically fit to do that. If you have any kind of medical problem do not do it. Also, anyone who is not used to fasting should probably only one day. It is not the length of the fast anyway, it is constant prayer that goes with it. I fast a meal before church each Sunday night, I will try to remember your husband tomorrow and fast for him alone. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3011 Registered: 3-2004  |
This is a good place to put a prayer request because I see the deceit being lessened with my good SDA friends in VA. I was talking with her just a few minutes ago. She told me she and her husband have been studying and reading and have discovered that EGW took from others writings. She did not use the word plagiarize. All I said was that is what got me started. In my head I am hollering and rejoicing and saying praise God. She did say they have not attended the SDA church for a long time and only one person from the church has contacted them in the past year. So, the spirit of deceit is being broken one person, one family at a time. THANK YOU GOD. YOU ARE AWESOME. I just had to share this with all of you. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 304 Registered: 6-2006 |
River, thank you! I do have hope, and the fact that he comes to church with me at all is a HUGE step. It just shocks me sometimes that he still holds to beliefs that he doesn't live by. I really appreciate your prayers! I used to be afraid to pray that my husband would be set free from SDAism until I found Mark Martin's web site, and then this forum. Now I pray about it almost daily.  Diana, God is so good! He truly loves us and hears our prayers. Huggingly, Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jackob, I listened to the Interview and I am in awe at how big this thing really is. I will read issue of proclamation, I want to listen to the interview a couple more times. Now I am wondering if God had some special purpose for all this. It,s just to much for my brain to take in at once, Bless you Jackob. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4935 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, Adventism was not founded on the gospel. Thhis fact is how the spirit of deception "got in", as you put it above. The church was founded by a group of people who did not repent after the Millerite "Great Disappointment" in 1844 when Jesus failed to return. Most of the people who followed William Miller repented of their date-setting and returned to their churches. Those who became Adventists did not. they persisted in claiming the date must mean something, and the investigative judgment was the face-saving delusion they devised to explain that 1844 was significant. Ellen White visions and dreams with an angelic guideóalways the same oneóand these visions and dreams contained information that not only contradicted the Bible, but they often contradicted themselvs as well. To be sure, she probably had brain damage, but brain damage does not explain the comprehensive doctrines that all intertwine in a systematic way, yielding a great illusion of Christianity while in reality the theology is carefully designed to keep people from knowing the real Jesus and experiencing the joy of salvation. Because Ellen is a fasle prophet whose dreams and visions did not come from God but came instead from an angel guide who had to be from the "other side", because Adventism teaches another gospel that keeps people from knowing Jesus, because the church never tried to be built on Biblical ChristianityóSatan has a claim on the church. I knowópeople get angry when I say thisóbut all false religions are claimed by Satan. They exist preciesly to deceive people and to keep them from Jesus. Adventism just happens to be a better deception than many because it more closely mimics Christianity. My experience with Adventism convinces me of the Biblical concept of election. While the church teaches about Jesus, they do not present Him as the sovereign, all-powerful King of kings but rather as a meek, mild, pitying "lesser" god who had to plead with the Father to die for mankind. In spite of this false picture of Jesus, however, many Adventists actually do want to serve and know Him. As Raven said above, these people do not experience their freedom in Jesus, and they live in great frustration, anxiety, and cognitive dissonance. But when they truly desire to follow Jesus, He systematically draws them toward Himself and into truth. HE does thisóthe people don't generate this response. I have no way to explain the fact that many of us desired to know and serve Jesus when we weren't taught the gospel except that God is sovereign, and were experiencing His call on our lives. But without doubtóthere is a spiritual claim on Adventism, and it is a miracle of God when an Adventist comes to "see" the reality of the gospel and the astonishing freedom of being alive in Christ. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 529 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi River, I was just having lunch yesterday with a co-worker friend who came from Calvary Chapels. I shared with him that I'd been writing a lot on the FAF Forum here, and he asked about what we'd done in Adventism. I explained that we'd basically removed the 10C from the Old Covenant in order to highlight the Sabbath, not realizing that the 10C were the Old Covenant. The result was that we began to experience all the curses of the Law all over again. We didn't realize we were trying to hold onto both covenants, Old & New. I was surprised how quick my friend "got it"... he began talking about how that would make us feel condemned or never able to measure up, etc. I think that is the single greatest problem with Adventist theology, and the greatest "way" we can help them "see" after 'love'. My friend asked about how we read Scripture, if we read verse by verse. I explained that we had both -- we had people who studied deeply, and we had people who did random proof-texting. (As I write this I notice that it was the latter group who founded Adventism, and that people who today do the former [verse by verse] consciously or unconsciously must bend what they find in order to match the founders' random proof-texting). I explained to my friend that I was simply unable to see what Scripture clearly said. As soon as God broke through to me with one comment, Scriptures began opening up one after another like dominos, and it all started falling together wonderfully and beautifully. Coming back to your question... I said that the NC/Gospel thing is utterly the most important thing, and I stand firmly by that. 2 Cor 3:14 describes this "veil"... HOWEVER... pointing out the "veil" to Adventists doesn't seem to help! In fact, I actually do not think this is the root problem. This is the effect, the result, but not the root. Basically, in order to see where the bondage in Adventism started, we need to find the "bitter root". From there all of the powers behind the "veil" spring. Having been in Pentecostal churches, I think you're probably have some knowledge about deliverance ministry (that is, praying for individual peoples' freedom from demonic oppression). There tend to be groups of demons/spirits which are allowed in by certain practices. For example, using a ouija board opens a big door through which several demons may come. Other things such as abuses from parents tend to open doors for multiple demons or problems, ranging from lust, homosexuality, perversion, and all the way to other things like unnaturally poor self-esteem or self-hate. In a similar way, "Adventism" has a lot of "fruits" on its tree that spring from a common root of offense. The "fruits" are almost beyond counting (but I'm not calling each fruit necessarily "demonic", but the "bad fruits" spring from a common "root" in the same way that lesser demons usually come in from a principle "root"). The "bitter root" in Adventism, I believe, comes from the Great Disappointment of 1844. It is there that "Adventism" really began. They believed Miller's ideas and endured "mocking" from other churches. It was there that their departure from the Scriptures began. Basically, the "bitter root" is pride, I think. The early Adventists were too proud to admit Miller had been wrong, and too proud to listen to their critics. After the "disappointment" was when this "root" really took root... when a new theology was formulated in order to maintain the "truth" of the Millerite movement. I believe this is the root stronghold in Adventism. In order to preserve the denomination down through the years, countless leaders have basically renewed the root -- that is, when they were confronted with Scripture or another Christian who pointed out the problems in SDA beliefs, they chose the side of the denomination (their heritage) instead of the side of truth. This willingness to put heritage over Scriptural truth has been "protecting" Adventist beliefs ever since the denomination's beginnings. It has skewed the ability of Adventists to read Scriptures objectively. Basically, this root existed before the introduction of Sabbath, Soul Sleep, Annihilationsim, and even before the elevation of Ellen White. The root was definitely strengthened by Ellen, but I believe that Ellen was more of a compliment to the root. In other words, primarily she supported the root, not the other way around primarily. Adventism had already began in opposition to the rest of Christianity (which used Scripture alone). This root of pride ("us" versus "them") created a propensity to accept other ideas that had the same dynamic -- a "different" and "more correct" position than the mainstream: "Saturday" when everyone else did Sunday; "Soul sleep" when everyone else believed differently; "Annihilationism" when everyone else believed in eternal suffering; "Vegetarianism" when everyone else ate meat... Et cetera. The first offense, the first "root" enabled all of these other "fruits" to be produced. It gave other Biblical abberrations "a place to stand". It was the "foothold" that gave the enemy a place in Adventist hearts to introduce other unbiblicial ideas. This root gave the Adventist heart a "fertile ground" for the other seeds to grow. Over time, the leadership continued to pass down this root from generation to generation. I think that the root is passed down and strengthened whenever someone begins to see Scripture saying something different, and a "spiritual parent" (a leader or elder or parent) then corrects the spiritual child with the Adventist truth. Imagine a little child asking his Sabbath School teacher if he is saved or not. The teacher (a spiritual parent) then can teach the child the Gospel -- that we are saved by what Jesus did for us, not by what we do. But instead, the teacher passes on the abuse to the child: "If you're good, you will be saved." It's worked in Adventism like a generational sin, like a parent abusing a child. At some point, leaders have consciously chosen heritage over Scripture for the sake of maintaining (not losing) the institution & history of Adventism. It is at this point that the abuse becomes self-centered (centered on Adventism) and becomes a point of using spiritual children for the sake of fulfilling the needs of Adventism. Okay, sorry this has been so long a post. But I believe this is the spiritual "root" that is hurting all generations of Adventism so badly. It began with the founders choosing the heritage of Millerism even after it was proven wrong by the Great Disappointment. All the other aberrant teachings of Adventism sprang from (or were given branches to grow on) this root. Blessings in Christ as you seek Him about how to pray for Adventists! In Jesus, Ramone | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2266 Registered: 3-2005 |
The only doctrine that is unique to Adventism is the Investigative Judgment--and that associated with the sanctuary doctrine, 1844, scapegoat etc. It is this doctrine more than any other which destroys assurance of salvation. It is with this doctrine that the elitism began, as SDAs believed they were a special people with a last day message of judgment. So this is the root problem with Adventism. It is the denial of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. SDAs do share other erroneous beliefs with other Christians and that is semi-pelagianism. There is nothing similar to the Reformation gospel of Luther and Calvin in Adventism. Adventism borrowed all other aberrant doctrines from other churches. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2267 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jacob, I just saw your post back in the archived section. I just have to respectfully disagree about soul sleep and annihilationism. They are not unique to Adventism. Many good non-SDA scholars who are also Reformed like I am believe in the eventual annihilation of the wicked and are not considered to be outside the body of Christ. There is legitimate room for debate on that topic. I think it is important to really zero in on the doctrine of the IJ as it opposes Reformation doctrine of justification by faith alone--this is an essential. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4936 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, soul-sleep as the SDAs understand it is different from soul-sleep as understood by other Christians. Christians understand humans to have a spiritóAdventists consider humans to have "breath" but not separate, sentient spirits. Consequently the understanding of death is distinclty different among Adventists. The Adventist understanding of death is like the Jehovah's Witnesses, not other Christians. The Adventist understanding of "spirit" is a foundational heresyóand it twists everything else, from the nature of man to the nature of sin to the nature of Christ to the nature of salvation. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 498 Registered: 7-2000 |
River, I'm still trying to get my mind around the idea of a Pentecostal pastor in an SDA pulpit. SDA's put their preachers in other's pulpits, and not the other way around. At least, that's the way it is in America. I would guess from your writing that English is a second language for you and that this church is somewhere in Europe. If so, we here in America may be of little help as things can be quite different in other countries. But, the folks in the congregation will probably welcome you and be (for the most part) very friendly. Remember that Adventist potlucks are vegetarian; that the Sabbath is a day for rest and not for buying or selling anything; and that much of what you preach will probably go right over their heads. The best you can do is too try to get them to see the Bible as actually Gods' word, as something that can be trusted, and believed as its' written. Taking them back to the basic simplicity of the gospel is great---but they will still cling to that Old Covenant and this idea is the one above all else that has to be broken. Show them why a New Covenant was needed, what it accomplished and how it still works today. BTW, you won't find the folks at the local level to be intentionally deceitful. SDA's aren't like the J.W.s who even have their own private codewords and shun outsiders. SDA's, mostly, are good people with a cobbled together theology of 'thus saith EGW' and 'the Bible has to say this'. Good luck! Bill | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 610 Registered: 1-2003  |
Bill I've known of Pentecostal Pastors in SDA pulpits, but not often. <grin> In fact I've heard them personally preach. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen and Ramone, I decided to answer your post together as your posts pretty much go together. I did want to try and respond to each individual ones on this post to simply express my appreciation and let you know that I find them of great value and I know it takes time and effort to crunch the old keyboard. Colleen you wrote: My experience with Adventism convinces me of the Biblical concept of election. That is my own experience, it is an entirely different subject yet it still fits, it fits the subject because I do believe god has called all Christians to be evangelist for his sake ìfreely you have received, freely giveî we can see this in the parable in Matt 22. and other verses of scripture and the example given by the apostles. We as the church of Christ (not denomination) cannot justify the attitude ìLord bless me and my wife, my son and his wife, us four and no moreî if you read my story you will see Biblical election at work, I should have given the piece an express title for reference. The story was not embellished to favor anything. You wrote: HE does thisóthe people don't generate this response. I have no way to explain the fact that many of us desired to know and serve Jesus when we weren't taught the gospel except that God is sovereign, and were experiencing His call on our lives. I too have no plausible way to explain my salvation other than election, yes we have free will, we can decide whether to work for God, or we can refuse to work in his field of labor, but make no mistake, it is his field. So somehow we have a part and calling to labor while we have breath to do so and thus share in the harvest, you can call us ìshare croppersî and it might not be far off. This subject came up in theology, the question of election and personal evangelization. The subject was not delved into because each person in that class already knew there was a call to go. One evening I ask ìLord, why do you place these ìBurdensî for people on our soulsî The next morning as I got out of bed and proceeded down the hall as usual to my study and the Holy Spirit spoke to me plain as day and said ìwould it have been different if I had not?î, and my answer was ìNo, I donít suppose it wouldî. I yam what you made me. Back to the ìhow it got thereî I think both you and Ramone explained it thoroughly and well, the reason I kept wondering about that was that over time I have begun to discover that if I keep seeking I will come to the place where I can truly say ìI see you!!î things are not always as they seem. I told my son-in-law, ìI will give her to you but if you mistreat her I will come and seek you out wherever you hide and pummel youî we as born again Christians need to seek out this liar wherever he hides and just pummel the living daylights out of him. I think you are doing that here with this forum. I see that ìroot of bitternessî through you explanations to a degree. I donít put a claim to ìSpecial knowledgeî but I do see what I see. I think we as a church can either get ìShare croppingî or stay on welfare. I donít know about you but I intend to get a little ìcropping inî before the snow flies. I want to tell you of an experience I had one time as a way to tell you what I think the answer is on how I am coming to believe my situation needs to be handle at least in part. One time I preached Christ and salvation to a guy for about an hour and a half in the cab of my pick-up and finally he said ìI know what you are saying but I canít do it, I just canítî and I began to pray silently ìFather I bind this thing that is holding him back from coming to youî and he sat there about 5 minutes, neither of us spoke a word, I just sat there and continued to pray. Finally he said ìI am readyî and I prayed with him and Jesus was there. I said all that to say this, I am beginning to suspect that this calls mostly for prayer, for ìbinding and loosingî. Methinks we need to do this so that the word can be received. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 101 Registered: 9-2006 |
Riverfonz, Thank you, now I am glad you brought that to my attention, ìThe Ivestagive Judgmentsî half the time I canít remember that word, I have looked into that particular deceit. Ramone said: The first offense, the first "root" enabled all of these other "fruits" to be produced. It gave other Biblical abberrations "a place to stand". It was the "foothold" that gave the enemy a place in Adventist hearts to introduce other unbiblicial ideas. This root gave the Adventist heart a "fertile ground" for the other seeds to grow. And I absolutely and without doubt believe this is true. As we say ìthe old apple doesnít fall far from the tree. Nicole wrote: if jesus isn't the center of adventism, then what is the most important thing, keeping the sabbath? food laws? the two things combined? to me, that is why it is so difficult to talk to my in-laws (or even my own husband) about their faith in or relationship with Christ. i really can't get a grip on where they are coming from and find some common ground. If you are still following this thread Nicole, you will find the answers to that. You are tracing the spiderís web from the outside in, go to the center of the web and trace out. Save a lot of wear and tear on yourself. I did the same thing as you and it took me near three years, if I had taken the routeî this thread has taken, it would have taken less than month. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2006 |
Loneviking, Thanks for the vote Bill but I am not a Pastor, thank God, herding sheep is not my ìdruthersî, maybe you guessed English as a second language is because I am just an old redneck and canít write. Ha. No, wrong again, I am not in Europe I wonít tell you where but I will give you a hint ìThis bird flies from PDXî. Now I will give you a hint as to my background, I like old dogs, horses, old tractors, country gravy, fried okra, guitar pickin, banjo pickin, bluegrass and country back roads, my favorite childhood memories are of 300 mountain top acres with kids, dogís, horses and cows, coon huntin after dark with a kerosene lantern and the story of Noahís Ark. My present toys are a customized rifle, a pump shotgun, my guitar and my pick-up truck. The rest belongs to my wife. Ha. Seriously bill, if God has given me favor with these people it is his doing and for his purposes, I just pray that I will be able handle anything that comes my way and I am trying. He promised me that he would never leave me nor forsake me, my weaknesses I wonít tell you about but I will tell you my strength, he is my strength. Now back to the lighter side, in the above words I have given you name, my approximate location and the state of my origin. May the Lord bless you and I know he will. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen: I forgot to mention this. You wrote: I knowópeople get angry when I say thisóbut all false religions are claimed by Satan. They exist preciesly to deceive people and to keep them from Jesus. Adventism just happens to be a better deception than many because it more closely mimics Christianity. Yes some will get angry, I just want to respectfully submit to you Isaiah 41: 8-13 as a word of encouragement to you today. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 499 Registered: 7-2000 |
O.K. River, I think I'm reading the clues right. You're a long way from where you grew up! We even have similar likes and memories. Anyway, the folks up your way are mostly the more liberal, progressive type. My wifes aunt lives up there (along with a few other relatives) so I've been to a couple of churches in the area. I'm glad you're here on the forum River as many of the things you say remind me of my dad. Good luck in your new adventure and keep us posted. Bill |
