| Author | Message | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 136 Registered: 8-2006 |
I received this from Robert K Sanders regarding Dale Ratzlaf's response to Jud Lake's presentation at the Ellen White summit. He discusses Ellen White's writings, and since we have been discussing whether or not she or the church places her writings on a par with Scripture, I thought it would be interesting reading. http://www.ratzlaf.com/JudLake2Long.pdf | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 306 Registered: 6-2006  |
That was an excellent letter. I loved this question; 10. Do you believe, as Ellen White taught, that ìno sanctified tongueî will say, ìI am savedî?17 I noted in your presentation that you stated you were saved. Does this mean you are now fully sanctified? Has your name already come up in the Investigative Judgment? Have you proven you can endure test and trial and shown that you can overcome temptation?" I wonder if Jud Lake will take Dale's invitation to have lunch?  Leigh Anne | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 139 Registered: 8-2006 |
I thought it was an excellent letter as well, Leigh Anne. Ramone has just put up a thread regarding the context of Ellen's writings since the 5 question thread has deviated somewhat. It's not surprising that it has, though, since not much about Adventism can be separated from Ellen. I think Dale speaks for many people who have studied Ellen in context and found she set herself up as a mouthpiece of God. She taught that you should never say "I am saved". How contrary to the Scriptures that give assurance of eternal life NOW for those who are in Christ? Susan | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 308 Registered: 6-2006 |
Susan, I just found a scanned copy of SDA Fundamental Beliefs up to 1980 and posted the link in Ramone's thread. I'm very glad the subject came up. Your question in the other thread was an important one! What I've learned from being married into a very traditional SDA family is that you absolutely can not separate EGW from her church. The church was built on her "visions" and writings. Her Sanctuary message either keeps members out of fear or discourages them completely (in my opinion) in their walks with Christ. The whole idea of the "remnant" and the "seal of the Sabbath" come from her. To claim to be an Adventist and then say that Ellen doesn't influence, or dictate or whatever, is simply untrue. Frustrating! Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3018 Registered: 3-2004  |
Leigh Anne, You and I were on the same mission. I found a copy, short version, of the 27 fundamentals prior to 1980. I did a copy and paste job, then noticed what you had put on there. You are so right about adventists who claim adventism and say they are not influenced by EGW. They are and the sad this is, they do not know it. Diana | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2004 |
Leigh Ann, I agree with your assessment. I find it interesting, though profitable, when people debate whether or not EGW is held equal to scripture. Imperical evidence helps when writing; those of us who were "born and raised" and worked in the church know for a fact the role she played. When modern Adventist leaders/apologists deny that she is held equal to Scripture I just laugh. Ya, not equal - too many only read her. As a grace oriented teacher I had to make sure that I had my supporting quotes at the ready. Steps to Christ had many quotes that I could use to support the Biblical view of the gospel. It was just sad that I had to teach in that way. Also, your assessment of the product of the sanctuary doctrine is accurate. It produces fear, discourages, but also prevents the understanding of true grace, peace and divine acceptance -- that last part was my main reason for opposing the doctrine. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 311 Registered: 6-2006 |
Diana, we must be in the same zone! Cforrester, I know many people, family and friends, who have commented that they sometimes confuse Ellen with scripture. A couple of times in my own little family have I had to undo "Bible stories" that weren't completely scriptural. I've been to too many SDA churches where her name comes up regularly during worship, in addition to her writings being in every church bulletin and monthly newsletters. She really heads the church. Maybe it should've been named for her? The Ellenists? The White-ies? <G> Never mind! Leigh Anne | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 632 Registered: 7-2004  |
Exactly, Leigh Anne. And how many times do SDA's say among themselves "We're told" this and "We're told" that - and I can guarantee at least 99% of the time, what follows comes from EGW, not the Bible! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 112 Registered: 9-2006 |
I just read Dales Letter, I love that Guy. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1510 Registered: 7-2003 |
The ONLY time I ever heard B's pastor preach he said "We are told in Steps to Christ...". i thought it was an interesting code-way to use EGW while never mentioning her name for sensitive ears. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2006 |
Yes, Ellen permeates every atom of the SDA church. From the Sabbath School daily lessons, the "extra reading at the end of each week's Sabbath School lesson; the EGW lesson helps you can buy in addition to the quarterly to read MORE quotes from Ellen; the references to her in the pulpit; the Study Bible where the "inspired commentary" is right there in the text of the Holy Scriptures, to the Clear Word (!) paraphrase that is quickly becoming the bible of choice throughout the denomination, not to MENTION that EVERY doctrine either originated with Ellen through a "vision" or confirmed from essentially the same source, you can't move one iota from Ellen if you are a Seventh Day Adventist. I commend Dale for his honest, pointed response to Jud Lake. When denominational leaders follow in the footsteps (or tonguesteps) of Ellen by talking out of both sides of their mouth, it makes me very doubtful there will ever be any change in the church as it is now. God will have to work a miracle on a denominational scale. While I have not seen that happen, I have seen miracles one person at a time who has been liberated to walk in the freedom of true salvation in Jesus Christ alone. Here is a desire for all of us to join the prayer circle here on FAF for those caught in Adventism and for those who are proclaiming the truth as Dale Ratzlaf. Susan (Message edited by SusanS on November 14, 2006) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2002  |
I can't remember what the name of the book was, but my roommate (a theology student) at LSU once had this Adventist book about the end times or the latter rain or something like that... And it used Scripture & Ellen White, of course. It had black-letter print for Scriptures & for the text of the book. But for Ellen's quotes, it used red-letter text!! Yes, just like Christ's words in our Bibles, they had actually put Ellen's words in red! That was more than a bit shocking. You'd think that someone in the publishing house would've seen that irony and halted it at least for fear of what other churches might think. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3030 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I was in college at La Sierra, in the Bible class about Jesus we used the book Desire of Ages as our textbook. The Bible was secondary. And I did not question it at the time. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 334 Registered: 11-2004 |
Homework assignments for a Bible class at AUC were searching an EGW book to find the answers to the questions and the class was called The Gospels. In Bible class for academy we wrote reports from EGW's writings on things like jewelry, entertainment, etc. EGW may not be mentioned very much in liberal churches even though her influence is defintely there, but in my experience the schools are full of teaching about EGW. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3032 Registered: 3-2004 |
EGW was thoroughly embedded in us and we did not realize we were not studying the Bible. When I decided not to be re baptized as an SDA, I was furious at the leaders at the GC for letting this deception go on for so long. My 12 step program taught me to let go and let God take care of things over which I had/have no control. So, I had to let go of that anger. And I could get angry over my schooling and what I learned there compared to what I could have learned. Again, I have to let go and let God take care of it, as there is nothing I can do about the past. Thank you God for redeeming the past and not letting any of it go to waste. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4953 Registered: 12-2003  |
You're right. Even if Adventists claims they don't think of Ellen as a prophet, they still honor her as a vital historical figure who gave the church a prophetc voice. They may call her "not a prophet", or "misguided" or "misused", etc., but they'll never dare to call her a false prophet. When I resigned from my position at Adventist Today as we were leaving the church, I told my boss that I had come to believe Ellen was a false prophet. Now, you have to understand that this man is very liberal. He believes in God but there's real doubt he believes in Jesus. In fact, this person even said this to us, "I don't believe God literally whispered all those things into Ellen's ear." Yet he wrote an apologetic piece admitting she plagiarized and should have admitted her sourcesónevertheless, she served an important purpose. So when I said I'd come to believe she was a false prophet, he looked up, startled, and visibly flinched. "Don't you think that's a little strong?" he asked. No, Adventists must hold onto her. It's completely true that when one actually admits she was not jsut "misguided" but a "false prophet", Adventism comes toppling down, one piece at a time. She is the foundation upon which the church is built. Colleen | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2004 |
I very much liked and agreed with Dale's letter. I very much disliked Lake's video presentation. He seemed sarcastic and manipulative. But the more leaks that spring from the hull the more desperate the crew becomes in trying to prevent the whole ship from sinking. |
