| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2006 |
To all: If the Lords lot falleth for you to travel yon rough road, so strewn with the wounded souls of mení Wilt thou cower at the task? If the Lord saith unto thee, Awake, arise, let us goí Wilt thou sleep on and take thy rest? What rough beast doeth slouch toward Jerusalem this dayí up, up I say. Which line is plagiarized? Who wrote each peace? river | ||
| Lars Registered user Username: Lars Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2005 |
River, (I apologize. This should have been posted earlier in the exchanges.) There is usually an ulterior motive behind most associations of SDAís with followers of Jesus. Their desire is to convert you to the SDA belief system. They consider those who accede to SDAism as real trophies!!! Many of us who were converted to SDAism were convinced by a seeming logical intertwining of Scripture taken out of context in conjunction with their charts, timelines, and emphasis on Sabbath. I never did totally understand how it was OK for them to be wrong about Jesusí second coming on 10/22/1844 (The Great Disappointment!!!), but then you were supposed to accept that they were RIGHT about the initiation of the Investigative Judgement on that date. In hindsight, it is all a real stretch of the imagination considering the reality of Scripture properly divided, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and the completeness of the atonement accomplished in Jesus Christ. Larry | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 500 Registered: 7-2000 |
Gee, an English quiz. Hmmm, it's been a while but this line I'm pretty sure is plagerized: What rough beast doeth slouch toward Jerusalem this dayí up, up I say. As for the authors, sorry, my major was medical and law. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2006 |
Lars, lars wrote: There is usually an ulterior motive behind most associations of SDAís with followers of Jesus. Their desire is to convert you to the SDA belief system. They consider those who accede to SDAism as real trophies!!! No doubt Lars. Thanks River | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2270 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, To clarify. I agree with the doctrine of the human spirit as you published it in Proclamation. I just don't believe that the spirit is immortal unless God gives it immortality, and I could be wrong, but I just don't see clear Biblical evidence that conscious eternal torment of human beings that were created in the image of God is certain. This is an area of in-depth study for me right now as I am comparing the writings of Fudge vs. Robert Morey to see which one is most Biblical, but so far the evidence of the entire Bible is for eventual annhilation. I am also studying other traitionalsists writings. I am interested that those who believe in eternal conscious torment leave out the most clear texts that annihialtionists point to. So, your prayers while I do this exhaustive study are appreciated. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1614 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, as others have said, the answer to your first question ("1. Is it some kind of demonic spirit deceiving the people, keeping them blinded so that they are unable to see?") is "yes"! It truly is a spiritual battle against demonic forces--the stranglehold on Adventists is very strong! But Jesus Christ is infinitely more powerful and sets people free!! And you are right to be concerned about their salvation. In fact, it would be very dangerous to assume that someone who believes in a false gospel is saved! It is important to try to share with them who Jesus is and what He has done for us, whenever possible. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2006 |
Answer to quizz. This line was plagiarized. What rough beast doeth slouch toward Jerusalem this dayí up, up I say. From William Butler Yeats, "The Second Coming" I changed the line slightly, the beast slouched toward Bethlehem, not Jerusalem, there was no up, up I say in the line. The other parts of the piece were written fresh off the old noodle at the time and instant of the quiz and it was therefore not borrowed in any shape or form, however since I did plagiarize from Yeats that made the whole peace a false hood. The plagiarized piece was caught the same way Ellen White was caught. Somebody read her and said to himself/herself ìNow that sounds familiarî Even though Bill did not know the writer he had heard the line and knew it for the plagiarized one. What say you? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4942 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great quizóand great example, River! And thank you for Isaiah 41:8-13. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4943 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Stanóspeaking of Robert Moreyówe attended a memorial service for the mother of a former student of mine on Friday, and Morey was the pastor. A large part of the audience was Adventist because she worked at Loma Linda (although she was a member of Morey's church). He gave an amazing gospel message, clearly calling people to accept Jesus, and he stressed over and over that we know where Janice is and that we can live in hope instead of unquenchable grief. I realized only after the service who Morey really wasóand suddently his message made complete sense. He preached directly to the Adventists in that crowd. At one point he said, "Jesus was Janice's only Prophet, only Lord, only King, only Savior." When my mind finally made "closure" and I figured out that this is THE Robert Morey, I realized that comment had been specifically for the Adventists. Richard talked to some other Trinity members who were present, and they had been totally confused as to why he had said Jesus was her only prophet! It was a truly memorable funeral service, and it was 100% a gospel message. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 533 Registered: 10-2002  |
Stan, I don't know how to explain or "defend" it---but I agree with something deep in my spirit. I'm not half as interested in responsibly studying it out as you & others are or have been, but bless you in Christ as you search it out!  | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 107 Registered: 9-2006 |
quote: I just don't believe that the spirit is immortal unless God gives it immortality _____________________________________________________________ Stan, that supposition (unless God gives it immortality)is probably true, however he gave you immortality when you were created. In Luke 16:19-31 commonly titled ìLazarus and the rich manî Jesus gives no indication that this is a parable, some say it is, some say it isnít, in the story he says (Luke 16:26 KJV) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Just as there is a ìGreat gulfî fixed between the unconverted person and God and it brings misery and torment to himself and those around him, would it be any different in the hereafter? It is said that the doors of hell are locked from the inside. Jesus goes on and admonishes them against causing offence and also forgiveness and in Luke 17:5 the apostles said ìLord increase our faithî they werenít changing the subject; Jesus had struck fear into their hearts it seems to me. I want to tell you about my wifeís grand father who refused to come to God. His son had died in a car accident, and one of his daughters had died with cancer and he held it against God apparently, years later, he saw me during the throws of my alcoholism, years of it, watched as it tore at my wife and family, overnight God reached down and the next morning I was freed from it, he was amazed, he said it many times, as he grew older, having diabetes he finally lost one of his legs and I worried about him, I knew he was getting on toward death, a man came to our church who claimed his ministry was in going door to door and telling people about Jesus, so when I heard this from him, immediately I told him ìI have a man I would like you to go see and I wrote down the name and address of my wifeís grandfather, that was on Sunday night, the following Wednesday I met the man at church and he told me that he had cursed him and ran him off, the man was sore at me because I had sent him there, but I thought ìAt least he wentî as time went on the man lost his other leg and was in ICU, my wife and I sat with him as he thrashed around in his hospital bed. He thrashed and pleaded with my wife to ìdonít let them get me, they are coming to get me, please, pleaseî as he drew nearer to deaths door, now you can put it down to heavy medication or whatever you like, Iím most sincerely telling you, I have seen many people die under heavy medication, I have laid so many on a cold slab I have just lost count but I have never ever seen anything even remotely like that mans death and just before his death. Did he see something terrible coming? I just do not know but I have a gut feeling he did. Like Ramone, I havenít given it a great deal of bible study, I donít need to, experience with dying people and my own conscience tells me that this world is very temporary place, just a wisp, it seems just yesterday I was a young soldier with a young wife and my first born baby, it is as clear as a bell, yet the days of the Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, gone just like a wisp of smoke, God does not create wisps, yes our body is made if chemicals, dirt, but it is only our temporary house. Like Ramone, I just know. I suspect that the haters of God and the self deceived will hate his truth from the inside of hell just as they did in life. | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2004 |
Iíve not been following this thread and havenít read it all, so forgive me if this has been said or not in context. River, I also do not believe in the immortality of the soul for both scientific (gasp) and biblical reasons, but like the question of where we go when we die Iím sort of ambivalent about it. So where do we go when we die? Um, away? Dunno All I know is I donít have to pay taxes any more. This passage in the story of the fall always comes to mind. Genesis 3:22-24 the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2272 Registered: 3-2005 |
River, Respectfully, I have spent a lifetime around the sick and dying and see unbelievable human suffering everyday, and deal with people dying, since I am a hospital based physician. I am not denying the intermediate state--just to be clear. The only doctrine I am seriously questioning right now is the doctrine that God will keep sinners alive for all eternity and torment them in body and soul. I want to be ABSOLUTELY sure of this doctrine based on the Bible alone and in its entirety, before I attribute to God a characteristic that is widely taught in pagan religions and a doctrine that was really pushed by the Roman Catholic church. William Tyndale and Weymouth--both people who actually translated the Bible did not believe that the other Reformers went far enough in reforming the RCC. Tyndale died by burning at the stake at the hands of the RCC. Tyndale did not believe in eternal torment. Isn't that interesting, coming from someone who actually translated the Bible from Latin into English. Charles Spurgeon had second thoughts about how he described hell in the vivid pictures of torture he once preached. Before he died, he said that he had no problem with the teaching of conditional immortality--even though he did not embrace it himself, he considered those who disagreed as his brothers in Christ. The great theologian and hymn writer Isaac Watts wrote a book early in his career strongly advocating eternal torment, but later in life wrote a book where he changed his position. For a man like Isaac Watts to admit that he was wrong speaks volumes to me. I am very happy to read Robert Morey (mentioned by Colleen above) also is clear that those who believe in annihilation are still brothers. It is amazing to me how charitable Morey is to SDAs in his book "Death and the Afterlife"--which is regarded as a classic in supporting the traditional view. He even said that he has had Christian fellowship with some SDAs, and he never calls SDA a cult, like he did the JW's. The reason this is so amazing to me is the later statements I heard Morey make in public. Robert A. Morey is a fine apologist and an excellent scholar. He just has the fault like many of being percieved as being so arrogant. He is crude on the radio and while preaching sermons in his church. He relies on jokes about the lower G.I. tract to get laughs both in his sermons and on the radio. And he is so demeaning of those who disagree with him. Having said the above, thanks Colleen for sharing about the funeral that Morey preached. He is one of the best Calvinistic preachers when he wants to be serious. I am sure he preached a great funeral. Do you think there is a chance of getting Morey to come to the FAF Alumni weekend? He would be great as SDA has been one of his topics of special interest. He also would be a great representative for the Calvinist viewpoint. (smiley). I would just like to emphasize again to those interested in studying both the traditional and conditionalist view of hell, that you read two books: 1.) "Death and the Afterlife" by Robert A. Morey and 2.) "The Fire that Consumes" by another Reformed theologian Edward William Fudge. Both men make fine Biblical arguments but I would invite you to judge for yourself whose views truly represent what the Bible teaches. Stan | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2006 |
Cforrester Well, we as human beings observe time passing, I have a 24 hour digital clock were I can see seconds ticked off one by one, we observe death in an individual on the heart monitor or when he takes that last breath and is still, but what is time to God, he says a 1000 years is as a day, one of my Adventist friends got all riled up with a fellow he was talking to about death, but lets take my own Dad for instance, he is dead, now I can visit that graveyard and he will still be to me as dead, now if he lies in his grave one minute or one thousand years or even one million years before the resurrection what is that to him? So the time of his death was marked off by the heart monitor, the doctor pronounced him dead at 2:03 am but the seconds kept ticking off for me in that room, but for my Dad, earthly awareness of time ceased so the transition from our time to resurrection would have been smooth as silk, he stepped out of this life into the eternal resurrection, there again it makes no difference the passing of years, now Paul termed death sleep, why? Because of the relationship between our own sleeping and wakening. Now Houston we have a problem, is it possible to transit from eternity time back to our time, well Jesus apparently did it but only after resurrection, now my Adventist friend got all jacked up with this guy because the guy believed in ghost or something another and I agreed with him I donít believe in ghost, catch me one so I can measure him and then I might be persuaded, my friend said ìWhen you die your dead and I agree with himî but I do not agree with his time factor, so after I studied on the thing, and I sent him a note and ask him what he thought about Moses and Elias talking with Jesus even before his death and resurrection and of course I didnít get an answer. Well Peter saw them, Jesus talked with them, but wait, both these guys are dead, they have been dead so long you couldnít find a bone with a magnifying glass. So where do we go? To the resurrection of course. How much of our time in getting there depends on which time frame you are looking from, their time or our time so I believe it is not a possibility for us to live here and be there at the same time yet I believe that it is entirely possible for the resurrected to travel from there to here as the Bible illustrates that Moses and Alias both did, however it would be for Gods own purposes and I doubt whether he would let Granny do it to let us know she was alright. So to us we wait, for them the wait is over even for us. Now God said ìLet us make man in our own imageî Moses ask God ìWho do I tell them sent me?î and Gods answer? Tell them ìI Amî sent you. We are aware creatures, God is aware of himself, you yourself are not aware of tomorrow or yesterday, you have knowledge of yesterday but its awareness has slipped away and really you are ìI am, that I amî, you are aware of yourself and God is aware of his self. Now I may not be correct but all that soul sleep is just too un-neat for me, so the way I see it, it is all tied up neat, where will we go, well I donít know about you but Iím going straight to the resurrection, if I have to wait a while to see Dad, what is that to me, carry on. You might try the catholic job they do on limbo. To me a Christian will awaken to eternal resurrection with Jesus, the unconverted person will awake to eternal separation from God for in his condition his hell is ongoing. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 125 Registered: 9-2006 |
Do the damned really experience eternal, conscious torment? Here is a very good presentaion in Wikipedia about that subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefse Scroll down the page to the "ADVENTIST" section. I'd love to hear your opinions, after you read it. WalkOnWater | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 110 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen: I listened to the Radio interview some more, by the way, good job. So what we have established here I think is that what we are up against is spiritual deception, not just bad doctrine which changes the way I have to think about this thing. In hearing they hear not and in seeing they see not. That makes it more difficult to deal with. Thanks to all for the help. Yours in Christ. River | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 126 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sorry but the above link does not take you to the right place. So here is the article. Wikipedia, The People's Encyclopedia Hell & Adventism "Distinct from other Christian denominations, Seventh-day Adventists do not believe the wicked suffer conscious torture and torment for all eternity in a fiery hell, but rather that God allows each person to choose his or her own fate, life or death. Adventists teach that by nature all are disconnected from God as the Source of Life. But Jesus Christ came to this world and by dying on the cross, a way was opened up by which all could be reconnected with God. By accepting through faith Jesus Christ's death on one's behalf, individuals are reconnected to God and pass from death to life. Those who, by faith, continue in that life giving connection with God, through Jesus Christ, will have life eternal in heaven rejoicing in His love and grace. Those who choose not to be reconnected to God, the Source of Life, have by default chosen death. Because God, in Adventist theology, allows every person free will God accepts that decision and they suffer the consequences of their sin and then they die. The Adventist view of hell is often referred to as annihilationism. However, SDAs see sin as intrinsically self defeating. Those who reject connection to the Source of Life, could not live forever, in heaven or hell, since there is no eternal life apart from God. * 1. SDA's support their viewpoint by pointing out that the Bible, in Romans 6:23, states that "...the wages of sin is death". If the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, SDAís ask, why do many Christians preach that the wages of sin is eternal life, in torment? * 2. SDA's further point out that the Bible, in I Timothy 6:15,16, states that, "God ... alone is immortal". If God alone is immortal, how do Satan, his evil angels, and those who rejected Jesus Christ become immortal too and live forever in hell? * 3. SDA's further argue that the entire Bible portrays God as the Source of Life. (Genesis 1, In the beginning God created the earth, mankind and everything else) SDA's argue that God is not simply alive, He is the Source of Life itself. If God is in fact the Source of Life, how could sinners survive for an eternity of burning while being totally cut off from that Source of Life, God? * 4. Furthermore, SDA's say the concept of an everlasting torture chamber, presided over by God, terribly misrepresents God's true character of love, justice and free will. How could a God of love, torture people forever? How could a God of justice, punish a few years of sin with an infinity of torture? How could a God who is committed to free will force a person to stay alive throughout eternity and torture them for ever and ever? * 5. SDA's say that an ever burning hell would make Christ's victory on the cross only a partial victory. Hebrews 2:14 says that Jesus' death made it possible for Him (Jesus Christ) to "destroy him who holds the power of deathóthat is, the devil." Note it uses the word "destroy" in reference to the Devil, not the word torture. The Bible makes it clear Christ's victory over Satan is a total victory. If that is true, then why would God have to settle for a stalemate with sin, with the screams and cries of sinners and Satan echoing through the universe for all eternity? SDA's say that since Christ's victory over Satan was total and complete, one day the universe will be cleansed of all sin and sinners. It will then be restored to its former sinless state. * 6. In both the Old and New Testament, SDAís point out that God gives mankind a free will choice between life and death. (Deuteronomy 30:19, for example, says, ìI have set before you life and death Ö Now choose lifeî.) Why would God mislead us by saying the choice is between ìlifeî and ìdeathî if, the real choice is between life or life? Eternal life in heaven or eternal life in hell. * 7. SDAís say the Bible contains hundreds of references to the fate of the wicked which show that the wicked will ultimately be, ìburned upî, ìdestroyedî, ìconsumedî, ìdevouredî, ìashes on the groundî, ìslainî, brought to ìnothingî, ìannihilatedî, ìperishî, ìblotted out foreverî, etc. Why then, SDAís ask, do many denominations argue that the wicked are immortal and cannot die? * 8. Finally, SDAís believe that God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1, Isaiah 65:17) and ìGod shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.î Revelation 21:4. The text says "all" crying and sorrow and pain and death and tears will be "wiped away". SDAís say there will not be an ever burning hell where those things go on forever. The entire universe will have been restored to its original sinless state. Sin and sinners will be no more and every heart will throb with joy as the redeemed gaze on the face of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who saved them by His grace. Adventists conclude that it will then be clear that in the entire war between God and Satan, God will have never violated His character of love and justice and He will never have violated mankind's free will." I thought this was a pretty good presentation. What do you think. WalkOnWater TenBLo0@hotmail.com | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 538 Registered: 10-2002 |
**rushing out before the tide comes in** (Blessings & love to all!) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 310 Registered: 6-2006  |
Walk, your post reads "SDA's say" and "SDA's conclude". Does that include you? What is your opinion on the subject? Leigh Anne | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 331 Registered: 11-2004 |
I find the referenced Hell and Adventism interesting. The more time that goes by since I left Adventism the more and more I realize how much the belief of spirit=breath influences many of their beliefs. Does anyone know where the spirit=breath belief came from? Those questions may make sense to an Adventist, but to many others who believe we have a spirit and live in a body some of those questions are a bit silly. Spiritual death and physical death are two different things. I haven't been able to find any evidence that the Adventist concept that God is on trial (i.e. The Great Controversy) is in the Bible. Do they base this on anything in the Bible or is this EGW only? |
