| Author | Message | ||
| Willy Registered user Username: Willy Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2005 |
As a FA for the last 3 yers I still hold the sda understanding of Eccl 9:5 and 12:7. Not because I like to, but because I have no other answer. I have learned that when I die God take back the breath of life he gave me when I was born(?), my soul is sleeping(?) and I am not conscious(?). I like to believe like most other Christians, that my soul or spirit goes to God, but I am confused over this question. What is "the soul" and what is "my spirit"? What happends with me when I die? Can somebody here give me a good answer og tell me where I can find the correct answer to this question? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 313 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Willy! Mark Martin gave some great sermons on the subject and you can listen to them from this site - http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Audio/tabid/57/Default.aspx#Former His explainations are detailed and easy to understand. I know others here will post scriptural support to help you understand. There are many wonderful texts that explain where you go when you die.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 294 Registered: 4-2006  |
Welcome Willy, so nice to hear from you. I can recommend you this audio file: http://www.mmoutreach.org/audio/jw/lorri_macgregor_clone.mp3 It talks on the topic of body, soul and spirit. God I pray for Willy that you will teach him more about yourself and your word, that he may know you better each day. Fill him up with your wisdom and knowledge, guide and lead him with your Holy Spirit, set him free by your truth. Amen In Christ | ||
| Willy Registered user Username: Willy Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thanks to both of you - Grace_alone and Mwh - for helpful and interesting adresses. I found interesting materials to order and I look forward to get knowledge of this topic. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1615 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Willy! You have to be very careful establishing doctrine from the book of Ecclesiastes. Much of it was written from a human perspective, from the perspective of this world and how things look to us. A major theme in the book (including in chapter 9) is "under the sun"--in other words, this world. You'll notice that the phrase "under the sun" is used repeatedly. In other words, what it is saying is that the dead know nothing "under the sun." This verse (9:5) is a prime example of the SDA proof text method of taking texts out of context to prove a particular teaching. In fact, they don't even like to quote the whole verse! Here is the verse in context:
So, it says that the dead have no hope, no further reward, and will never again have a part in anything under the sun. That would mean no resurrection! But again, this is written from our perspective and how things look to us. In addition to the sermons at the link that Leigh Anne posted, (former SDA) Pastor Mark Martin just preached on this subject this last weekend (and addressed Ecclesiastes 9:5) and the weekend before. You can listen to those sermons at: http://tm.calvaryphx.com/ Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4951 Registered: 12-2003  |
Also, Willy, you can read the articles in Proclamation about this subject here: www.formeradventist.com/proclamation.html and here: http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2004_SepOct.pdf Glad to have you here, Willy! Colleen (Message edited by colleentinker on November 14, 2006) | ||
| Willy Registered user Username: Willy Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2005 |
In the ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) I found this about Spirit: 2. Shades of Meaning: (1) As Life-Principle: The spirit as life-principle in man has various applications: sometimes to denote an apparition (Mt 14:26, the King James Version "saying, It is a spirit"; Lk 24:37, the King James Version "had seen a spirit"); sometimes to denote angels, both fallen and unfallen (Heb 1:14, "ministering spirits"; Mt 10:1, "unclean spirits"; compare also 12:43; Mk 1:23,26,27; and in Rev 1:4, "the seven Spirits .... before his throne"). (2) As Surviving Death: The spirit is thus in man the principle of life--but of man as distinguished from the brute--so that in death this spirit is yielded to the Lord (Lk 23:46; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor 5:5, "that the spirit may be saved"). Hence, God is called the "Father of spirits" (Heb 12:9). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4961 Registered: 12-2003 |
Willy, what reactions/responses do you have to these definitions? Do they clarify or confuse things further? Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2298 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is a portion of a belief statement from a certain organization's website: "We believe that man was created for immortality, but that through sin he forfeited his divine birthright; that because of sin, death entered into the world, and passed upon all men; and that only through faith in Jesus Christ, the divinely ordained Life-giver, can men become "partakers of the divine nature," and live forever." We believe that death is a condition of unconsciousness to all persons, righteous and wicked; a condition which will remain unchanged until the resurrection at Christ's Second Coming, at which time the righteous will receive everlasting life while the wicked will be "punished with everlasting destruction;" suffering complete extinction of being." ------------------------------------------------- Wouldn't you think that only SDAs would post a belief statement like this? Can you guess where this statement comes from? This is from the Advent Christian Church which worships on Sunday. So SDAs don't have a corner on this doctrine. Here is a link to their site: http://www.adventchristian.org/ Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 696 Registered: 8-2004  |
Thanks for that link Stan. Looks like an interesting church. Did you notice that the Advent Christian Church traces their history from William Miller the same as Seventh Day Adventism does? Mary | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2299 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes Mary, but they repudiated Miller completely and they disassociated themselves from SDAs completely. This would be a church that Ellen White would condemn as rejecting that Millerite message and would be consigned to Babylon, notwithstanding their conditionalism. I think it is interesting that in posting their belief statement they actually quote directly from 2 Peter 2:6 and use the Biblical term extinction for the wicked, the same term the English Standard Version uses. I also post this to underscore that there are so many doctrines where there can be no compromise--Salvation by grace alone, thru faith alone, the Deity of Christ, etc. which are so clear. But the issue of the state of the dead is highly debatable. I believe it is clear that we have a spirit, but whether that spirit is in a state of a blissful sleep with subconscious awareness awaiting the blessed resurrection is an area of debate among believers. I believe the doctrine of sovereign grace is so much clearer than the details of our state after we die. Stan | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 315 Registered: 4-2006 |
I believe that their arose 6 cults from the millerites, JV, SDA, First Day Adventists, but I can't remember the last three ones and or if they exist today as well. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2300 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mwh, I wouldn't classify the first day Adventists as a cult, because that is what the Advent Christian Church became--first day Adventists. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1622 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, The Advent Christian Church is a Millerite sect/cult which teaches salvation by works, and celebrates a man who falsely predicted the return of Christ via the sin of date-setting. No, they have not "repudiated Miller completely"--take a look at their History page on their website. They are proud of their history and celebrate and defend William Miller and his movement (of which they were and are a part). They have not repented of, or repudiated, any of it. You mentioned salvation by grace alone, through faith alone--but if you look at that statement of faith that you quoted from, they teach salvation by works and there is no teaching of being saved by grace alone through faith alone. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2301 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree Jeremy, it is not a church where I would want to worship, and it is clearly Arminian. But I don't think you could get any cult watch ministry to call the Advent Christian Church a cult. Stan |
