| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4948 Registered: 12-2003  |
No, U2óthat "God on trial" idea is completely fabricated. It's not in the Bible. God is Godóand no one questions that. "Even the demons believe and tremble" (James 2:19). You're right about the spirit=breath being a a heresy that underlies just about every belief of Adventism. It came from Ellenóbut who actually invented the idea in the first place, I don't know. Perhaps James?... Perhaps Ellen's handsome angel guide? I know that JW's also believe this, but I believe they gleaned the idea from the Adventists. As far as "eternal life" and "death" are concerned, it is merely a human, non-eternal, three-dimensional understanding to say that hell would be eternal life. By definition, death is being separated from the source of life. If a person existed apart from God, he would be deadóeven if conscious. To be sure, all of us are born deadódoomed to hell and incapable of being godly or doing good. It takes a miracle of the Holy Spirit to become alive and able to choose godly living. Eternal death does not necessarily mean non-existence. Our time-bound definitions just don't all work in eternity and 10 or so dimensions. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4949 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Riveróyou're absolutely right. Adventism is not merely bad doctrines. It is spiritual deception of a very sophisticated order. You're right about "hearing they do not hear". I know this from long and confusing personal experience. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 631 Registered: 7-2004  |
The way I heard it explained in Academy Bible class is that the Hebrew word ruah means breath, as well as the verse in Genesis that says God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul. I doubt the Hebrew word was the original explanation, as I'm pretty sure the early SDA's didn't get into any languages outside of English. While I don't really understand what the Hebrew word ruah is all about, I do know that it just doesn't make any sense to substitute the word spirit for breath in many verses. Obviously it's impossible to conclude anything but annihilation if one believes our spirit is only breath. Once someone recognizes what the spirit actually is, then there can be debate about whether or not there is eventual annihilation. It boils down to the definition of what "death" means - extinction or permanent separation from God. And what it means to be "punished day and night forever and ever." | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 545 Registered: 10-2002  |
Interestingly, Genesis 2:7 makes an interesting argument for mankind being a "three-part being" -- The expression "the breath of life" ought to be somewhat set apart from mere "breath", since the "of life" part qualifies it, especially in the sense as something preceding directly from God. (On the 3-part note, Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God can divide or distinguish the soul from the spirit, and 1st Thess. 5:23 mentions all three parts). | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, If what you say is true and I know it is, there is a vast difference between going up against bad doctrine and going up against an entity. In order for there to be the deceived there must be a deceiver. Now of course we are dealing with people in the Adventist ìchurchî and of course I am referring to the wide spectrum, in that spectrum we could try to ìboilî it down to a few basic types. Looking past the people involved we would be looking at a hierarchy, at the root, the deceiver, now in this case, controller over a domain if we dare look at the thing in the Macro. Now if we look at it in the micro we find different individuals, the human entity. I will see if I can bring it down to a few basic types of individuals. 1. We find the individual who has given over completely to this deceiving entity, more likely to hold onto positions of power, whether financial or otherwise, a spirit of pride, should we contend with him, he is busy digging his grave and marking his grave stone and will not hear you. If you dare interrupt him in his digging and carving he will turn on you with bared bloody fangs. 2. We find the person who perhaps through circumstance of life or other reasons, lets let Isaiah describe him (Isa 44:18 NIV) They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. (Isa 44:19 NIV) No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?" (Isa 44:20 NIV) He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, "Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?" Shall we contend for his soul? 3. We have the person who, as in all ìChurchesî attends idly who has no real commitment; it is just ìsomething to do, ìafter all the kids like it!î Shall we contend for his soul? 4. We have the person who says ìWhat new babble shall I hear today? Do we dare Babel with the babbler and chance rendering our own ministry too non effect? If the Lords lot falleth for you to travel yon rough road, so strewn with the wounded souls of mení Wilt thou cower at the task? If the Lord saith unto thee, Awake, arise, let us goí Wilt thou sleep on and take thy rest? If ask to bear the lords Cross a little wayí Wilt thou balk at the load? If the Lord calleth thee to work in his vineyardí Wilt thou continue to sit idly by the way and say Nay, nay Lord, call upon this man for he is more fit than I. River | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 293 Registered: 4-2006  |
Agapetos, yes I agree with you that we do consist of 3 parts, body, soul and spirit. Soul and spirit does have some properties in common though. An interesting talk on this topic is available here: http://www.mmoutreach.org/audio/jw/lorri_macgregor_clone.mp3 In Christ | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2274 Registered: 3-2005 |
In the course of my research of church history on this topic of hell as well as conditionalism, it is quite apparent where Ellen White got soul sleep from. There were other true Christian conservative writers who also believed that Ruach meant breath. This was not unique to SDA or JW. Authors that Ellen may have copied from are Fred Farrar (a conditionalist), and Guillebaud, and Pravel. This is why Walter Martin would not call SDA a cult based on this doctrine, since he was familiar that other Christian groups also taught this. I am really fascinated right now by the history of the development of the eternal torment doctrine. I learned yesterday, that Tertullian, an early church father was one of the real big influences on Augustine and others for making sure that eternal torment became one of those doctrines that would stay a cardinal doctrine throughout the Reformation and up to now. But, Tertullian became convinced of this doctrine even more when a WOMAN he knew had a vision with regard to this topic that convinced him that this was Biblical truth! Also, it is very interesting why traditionalists writers don't have good explanations for Malachi 4:1-3, and for 2 Peter 2:6--texts that both state directly that the wicked will become totally obliterated or extinct. Robert Morey leaves out both texts in his book on hell, and many traditionalist writers such as Buis etc. also don't comment on some of these problematic texts. At least William Fudge deals with ALL the problem texts. This is not an easy topic, and I don't think any of us can claim to have all the answers. Stan | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 129 Registered: 9-2006 |
I am dumbfounded when I find people who: 1. hold on with all their might to a place where God tortures His enemies forever and 2. let go of a God who instructs us to do good to our enemies. WOW!! tenblo0@hotmail.com | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 130 Registered: 9-2006 |
Based on my last post, apparently Ellen is not the only one who "speaks out of both sides of her mouth." | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2275 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mwh, Here is an excellent article relating to the dangers of the trichotomous view of man. This article also relates the Trichotomous view of man to the way charismatics treat speaking in tongues. This is excellent reading: http://www.the-highway.com/tricho-charis_Brown.html Stan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 634 Registered: 7-2004 |
Malachi 4:1 says the wicked will be set ablaze "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." Couldn't that mean neither root nor branch physically speaking, on the earth, among the righteous? 2 Peter 2:6 we've been over before, where it says the ungodly, like Sodom and Gomorrah are condemned to destruction by reducing them to ashes. Again, the word "extinction" isn't there even though it does read that way in the ESV translation. Again, it could mean physically-speaking, in relation to the saved. Likewise, there are verses the conditionalists have a hard time explaining, such as Revelation 20:10, tormented day and night forever, and Matthew 25:46, eternal life versus eternal punishment. Either view requires a certain amount of interpretation to get around the problematic verses. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3021 Registered: 3-2004  |
Walk, The people writing all this are not saying that they know it all. These are people who are searching and studying to know the truth. Remember, this is a forum for former adventists who want to know the truth. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I am not so sure now. I do pray for all who write on her and that includes you. Diana | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 635 Registered: 7-2004 |
By the way, WOW, I can't speak for others but I am not one who holds on with all my might to my pet view. I try to read what the Bible says and accept what it says whether I like it or not. While I can't say with absolute certainty that eventual annihilation is false, I do lean towards (even though I don't like it) believing it when the Bible says "tormented day and night forever and ever." Whichever way it is, I'm fine with it because it is what God chooses to do and He doesn't make mistakes. If I find out at the end of all things that I'm wrong, that's fine too. And no, I don't think that contradicts God's instructions to do good to our enemies. Humans have been instructed to do good to all, including enemies. God, as judge, can do whatever He deems best. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 213 Registered: 3-2005 |
As Christians there are a few undeniable truths that we hold as essential, and only one affects my Salvation - that I accept I am a sinner, Jesus died for me, and through His gift of Grace alone I am saved. The rest are non-essentials. We can discuss various ideas, differences of opinion, whatever, but none of this matters to my Salvation. And if I know I am saved, it really doesn't matter if I go straight to heaven or not, or if there is an eternally burning hell, because that doesn't affect me! I am saved! It would be nice to know, it might in some way affect my human view of God, but the bottom line is they are not essential to Salvation. That doesn't mean I don't have a viewpoint on non-essentials. I may or may not, and my opinions may change over time. I will not argue that my point is absolutely correct, or put others down for a difference of opinion on non-essentials. But on the ESSENTIALS I will stand firm. -tisha | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2278 Registered: 3-2005 |
Great points Tisha! R. F. Weymouth, who translated the New Testament into English (first published in 1903) directly from the Greek, after many years of intensive study of textual criticism, wrote: "My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language than when the five or six strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying °Ædestroy°Ø, or °Ødestruction°Ø, are explained to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this. " This was the opinion of one translator, and it is said that William Tyndale was of the same mind. So this isn't just an SDA controversy, but a legitimate cotroversy between Bible believeing evangelicals as well. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3023 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I found out about the body, spirit, and soul I immediately became concerned for my Mom, who died 2 years previously. I always assumed she would be in heaven. That was before I found out how she treated my half brother and sister, which was really hateful. But I prayed and decided that God is just and Mom's fate is in God's hands and I can do nothing about it now. What ever He does is just and fair and I believe in God. So, I quit worrying about my dead mother. God is Just and so awesome. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 333 Registered: 11-2004 |
WOW said "1. hold on with all their might to a place where God tortures His enemies forever" I don't hold that with all my might. It is not something I am 100% sure of, but I do know that God is good and He has provided a way. It is my belief that He desires that all come to repentance and Jesus is the way. However, not all come to Him and sin and God cannot co-exist. Is it the forever part you have a problem with or the torture part? I understand where you are coming from as I was once there myself. I do think the Adventist belief about the nature of man plays alot into the belief about annihilation. As an Adventist it was natural to believe in annihilation because when the body is burned up what is left to burn? Eternal torment didn't make any sense as an SDA. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 131 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Stan, That is a great post. I had never heard that about Weymouth. Very interesting. I find that Matthew 25:46 is often times cited to prove eternal punishment. The text has a logical balance to it. In fact it is almost like an algebraic formula. The wicked get "X" punishment/the saved get "X" reward. And "X" equals "Everlasting" Sounds good. Sounds simple. Sounds right. And it is right, except for one thing. "X" does NOT equal "Everlasting". Read the text in Young's Literal Translation. It says, "46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. In other words, the literal translation says that "X" is equal to "age-during" NOT "everlasting" "Age-during" does not tell us a specific amount of time. It could range from a very short time period on up to eternity. So what the text is actually saying is, "There is an age, during which the wicked are punished and there is an age, during which the righteous have life." In other words, this text does not tell us: 1. How long the saved will dwell in heaven or 2. How long the wicked stay in hell. It simply says there is a period of time for both. So how do we determine how long heaven and hell last? We do exactly what any good Bible student would do. That is to allow the Bible to give the interpretation. I will not go into all the texts I could use, but here are a couple. The Bible tells us that God alone is "immortal" and that there are "no end to His days". So Fact One is: God lives forever. The Bible tells us that the saved, "put on immortality" So Fact Two is: The "age during" which the saved are in heaven, never ends. Finally, no where in the Bible do we find that the wicked "put on immortality" and nowhere does it say "there is no end to their days". In fact, quite to the contrary, we find that the wicked become "ashes on the ground", "burned up", "devoured", "consumed", "cannot be found", "dead bodies", "destroyed", etc. etc. Fact Three: The "age during" which the wicked live is finite, not infinite. Thus Matthew 25:46 is literally saying, "The wicked will go into punishment for an age and the righteous will live in heaven forever. How long the age in hell will be is not told us but we do know it is finite, not infinite. WalkOnWater Tenblo0@hotmail.com | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 385 Registered: 7-2005  |
For those who believe in the intermediate state: 2 Peter 2:6 does not touch the subject of the soul, talking about only about the physical part of man. The bodies of the people of Sodom were reduced to ashes, but their souls descended in sheol, awaiting the resurrection. Burning bodies to ashes says nothing about what's happening with the souls, because the souls survive the destructions of these bodies. For me this is a clear proof that texts like 2 Peter 2 and Malachi 4 are not sharing information about the soul's fate, only the body is in view. Actually, I find no other explanation about 2 Peter 2:6 which can be harmonized with the belief in the intermediate state. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 634 Registered: 7-2004  |
WOW, please don't mistake a person's translation with the meaning of the verses. Please look at how the word is used in the NT. Can you find any cases, outside of the descriptions of the punishment of the wicked, where the word would not mean eternal or forever? |
