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Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 540
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the 5 questions thread, an interesting discussion started opening up about how authoritative Ellen White believed her own writings were in comparison to Scripture. Bill (I believe?) put up several quotes, all of which WalkOnWater said were taken out of context.

1) Could someone re-post those quotes here?

2) WalkOnWater has said that the quotes were all taken "out of context"... as they stand alone, the quotes are pretty damaging. If "reading them in context" would lessen the damage---to the extent that nothing would be wrong---then someone ought to give a bit of the highlights from the "context" in order to defend the assertation that the quotes were indeed "taken out of context".

In other words, we can easily say that something was "taken out of context", but if we don't show how it was taken out of context and show that it means something different than what was charged, then we have not proved anything at all.

Merely saying it was taken out of context and not showing how then may look as if we are afraid to actually investigate the matter deeper, for fear of the wider context actually turning out agree with what the one quote says.

I don't say that anyone is actually afraid of that, but if we don't show the error of taking out of context, then it does tend to look like we're afraid of looking. So anyway, this is an opportunity to show the wider context.

This doesn't need to be done by a defender of EGW, either. Someone who has used the quotes to show her error can just as easily examine the context in the same way. I hope someone does this eventually so that the charges of "taking her out of context" can be forever put to rest.

As for me, I won't be that "someone" because shoot, my cup is full in Christ without EGW, and in my lifetime she has brought nothing but confusion, accusation & legalism. And even more truthfully, I honestly could not make myself interested enough to do this research. But blessings to the man or woman who does!

*****

This thread by Susan is also pertinent to the discussion.

*****

Final note: Could someone put up something about how the Fundamental Beliefs were re-worded in 1980?
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 307
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone, I just found this -

STATEMENTS OF BELIEF
of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
1874 ń 1980

http://remnantprophecy.sdaglobal.org/Librarypdf/Advent-History-1900s/Neil-Livingston/Statement-Beliefs-Compared.pdf

I hope that's helpful...

:-) Leigh Anne
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 3017
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the churchís understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of Godís Holy Word.

1. The Holy Scriptures:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of Godís acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

2. The Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

3. The Father:
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. The Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested Godís power and was attested as Godís promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

5. The Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christís life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

6. Creation:
God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work. The first man and woman were made in the image of God as the crowning work of Creation, given dominion over the world, and charged with responsibility to care for it. When the world was finished it was ``very good,íí declaring the glory of God. (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)

7. The Nature of Man:
Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)

8. The Great Controversy:
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, Godís adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)

9. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ:
In Christís life of perfect obedience to Godís will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of Godís law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims Godís triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)

10. The Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of Godís grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as Godís sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes Godís law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

11. The Church:
The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lordís Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is Godís family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)

12. The Remnant and Its Mission:
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

13. Unity in the Body of Christ:
The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)

14. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

15. The Lordís Supper:
The Lordís Supper is a participation in the emblems of the body and blood of Jesus as an expression of faith in Him, our Lord and Saviour. In this experience of communion Christ is present to meet and strengthen His people. As we partake, we joyfully proclaim the Lordís death until He comes again. Preparation for the Supper includes self-examination, repentance, and confession. The Master ordained the service of foot washing to signify renewed cleansing, to express a willingness to serve one another in Christlike humility, and to unite our hearts in love. The communion service is open to all believing Christians. (1 Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:23-30; Matt. 26:17-30; Rev. 3:20; John 6:48-63; 13:1-17.)

16. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries:
God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity. Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people. Some members are called of God and endowed by the Spirit for functions recognized by the church in pastoral, evangelistic, apostolic, and teaching ministries particularly needed to equip the members for service, to build up the church to spiritual maturity, and to foster unity of the faith and knowledge of God. When members employ these spiritual gifts as faithful stewards of Godís varied grace, the church is protected from the destructive influence of false doctrine, grows with a growth that is from God, and is built up in faith and love. (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, 27, 28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Peter 4:10, 11.)

17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lordís messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

18. The Law of God:
The great principles of Godís law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express Godís love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of Godís covenant with His people and the standard in Godís judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

19. The Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of Godís unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in Godís kingdom. The Sabbath is Godís perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of Godís creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

20. Stewardship:
We are Godís stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge Godís ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; Matt. 23:23; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; Rom. 15:26, 27.)

21. Christian Behavior:
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)

22. Marriage and the Family:
Marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship. For the Christian a marriage commitment is to God as well as to the spouse, and should be entered into only between partners who share a common faith. Mutual love, honor, respect, and responsibility are the fabric of this relationship, which is to reflect the love, sanctity, closeness, and permanence of the relationship between Christ and His church. Regarding divorce, Jesus taught that the person who divorces a spouse, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery. Although some family relationships may fall short of the ideal, marriage partners who fully commit themselves to each other in Christ may achieve loving unity through the guidance of the Spirit and the nurture of the church. God blesses the family and intends that its members shall assist each other toward complete maturity. Parents are to bring up their children to love and obey the Lord. By their example and their words they are to teach them that Christ is a loving disciplinarian, ever tender and caring, who wants them to become members of His body, the family of God. Increasing family closeness is one of the earmarks of the final gospel message. (Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 19:3-9; John 2:1-11; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 5:21-33; Matt. 5:31, 32; Mark 10:11, 12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11; Ex. 20:12; Eph. 6:1-4; Deut. 6:5-9; Prov. 22:6; Mal. 4:5, 6.)

23. Christís Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

24. The Second Coming of Christ:
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviourís coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christís coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)

25. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)

26. The Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

27. The New Earth:
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.) GCO

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Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 543
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 3:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, you two rock!

The two comparisons I wanted to check and see if WalkOnWater knew about were the two changes made in 1980...

The wording in the "Holy Scriptures" belief was changed... could someone put up a before & after of that belief?

I believe the section on Ellen White was also changed... could someone do a before & after there, too?

I really am lazy, :-) but in this case there's also an honest reason: my computer is getting old and doesn't work well when Acrobat Reader opens. :-( I'm pretty sure that both comparisons have been in Proclamation several times, as well as in Dale Ratzlaff's "Cultic Doctrine of SDAs" book. If I have time (and someone doesn't beat me to it), I might dig out a copy and post it up. But feel free to beat me to it, folks. :-)

Anyone want to take up the "context" challenge? :-)
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 544
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 4:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some Ellen White quotes that WalkOnWater said were "taken out of context". I hope someone has time to take up the challenge of examining to the "context" to see if it exonerates Ellen to some degree --


quote:

#1:

"We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God." 1SM 161.2


This quote seems to say that no matter what Scriptures someone points to, if the message deviates from early Adventist "truths", it is a mistake no matter what. The Adventist "foundation" from its "first fifty years" is held to be indisputable. If someone uses Scripture to challenge this foundation, Ellen said it was wrong. Scripture ought to be respected, but it is a mistake to dispute the "foundation" with Scripture.


quote:

#2:

"I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church, given for the people of God. Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. ... God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept." Testimonies, Vol 5, p. 605


Here it seems that Ellen is saying her writings are "from God... line upon line and precept upon precept". This is why so many conservative/historic Adventists are so passionate about the "verbal inspiration" of Ellen White's writings... this is why they get so upset when anyone modifies/modernizes Ellen's words or writings.

(Side note: I'm continually astounded by how many people quote that "line upon line / precept upon precept" phrase from Isaiah without realizing that it is a curse instead of a passage about how to read Scripture!)


quote:

#3:

"The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy." (Selected Messages, Book 3, page 30, paragraph 3.)


Here she seems to be saying that her writings are authored by the Holy Spirit, and further that her writings are the "Spirit of prophecy".

1) This would mean that if there are any errors in her writing, it is because "the Holy Ghost" made the error.

2) Her writings and Scripture, she says, have the very same author.

3) The expression, "The Spirit of Prophecy" seems to indicate that she feels her writings are the same as the prophetic writings of Scripture.

The usage of "Spirit of prophecy", however, is based upon one verse in Revelation used out of context completely. (For anyone curious about how it's used out of context, if you're interested, I'll make another thread for it. Just ask.)


quote:

#4:

"If you seek to turn aside the counsel of God to suit yourselves; if you lesson the confidence of God's people in the Testimonies He has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan, and Abiram." Testimony to the Church Vol. 5, page 66, 1882 edition.


This statement appears that it can be taken two ways: One, it could be a warning to those who seek to use Ellen's "Testimonies" selfishly, and Two, it also seems to be a warning to anyone who seeks to "lessen peoples' confidence" in her Testimonies. First, her "Testimonies" are said to be from God Himself, and to "lessen" anyone's confidence in them is equivalent to "rebelling against God just as certainly as Korah -- who was swallowed by the earth in a judgment from God for challenging Moses. The implication then is that people who challenge "God's Testimonies" through Ellen are just as much in rebellion as Korah was against Moses. They are in Korah's place, and she is in Moses' place. A stretch? Someone check the context. If no one checks the context, the quote stands alone for what it says!


quote:

#5:

"There is one straight chain of truth without one heretical sentence in that which I have written." ó Ellen G. White, Letter 329A, 1905.


This one is very direct. I think the context, in this case, might likely make the quote more damaging...


quote:

#6:

"In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. IV., p. 148; Vol. V., p. 661).


In this passage, she seems to be saying that her writings are just as inspired (and/or just as directly from God) as were the words of the prophets & apostles of old ("prophets" seems to mean the OT, and "apostles" seems to mean the NT).


quote:

#7:

"I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (Testimonies, Vol. V., pp. 63-67).


Here she seems to clearly say that not one thing she has written has been merely her own idea. Instead, everything she has written was "opened before her in vision" from God. Everything she has written, all her works are "precious", "rays of light", "shining from the throne" of God.

This would indicate that anyone who seeks to explain what she wrote as having been her own idea or interpretation would be completely mistaken. This quote basically says there is no room for seeing her writings as anything else but straight from God. Can the "context" lessen what this quote claims?

*****

These are the quotes I found on the "Five Questions" thread. I have seen more quotes on other threads, but I can't remember which ones. Anyone who wishes is welcome to add them here! I might suggest doing so in the same format I tried above... putting the quote, what it appears to say from its substance, and then issuing the challenge to anyone who wishes to change the meaning of the quote using the context.

*****

In response to some of these quotes, WalkOnWater posted some of Ellen's quotes about the supremacy of Scripture, as well as the oft-quoted "lesser light" argument. At the same time, the content of these quotes seems to give great creedence to the notion that she spoke "out of both sides of her mouth"... saying Scripture was the sole authority, but at the same time saying her writings were just as authoritative as Scripture.

We might summarize her position as "Two legs of truth" (sorry for the irony!), one leg = Scripture, and the other leg = her writings.

One thing seems certain: We can find EGW quotes that argue both sides of the issue. Sometimes she seems to say Sola Scriptura, and other times she seems to add her own writings to Scripture (and as in Quote #1, she seems to say that the SDA foundation cannot be changed by Scripture).

EGW defenders argue that the Damning Quotes (sorry for the hard word) must be interpreted through the lens of the Sola Scriptura quotes. EGW challengers argue that the DQ outweigh the SS quotes.

Which do we believe? I suggest that there are three possibilities:

1) SS quotes outweigh DQ
2) DQ quotes outweigh SS quotes
3) Doublethink - Both DQ & SSQ mean what they say; contradictory positions are held & taught

Here at the FAF Forum, we have taken a Protestant ethic of interpretation regarding the Scriptures, which places a lot of emphasis on the substance of what Scriptures say.

We tend to look at all things this way, and I think it is a good thing. In EGW's case, we might find a good Sola Scriptura quote somewhere, but the presence of that SS quote does not mean we can ignore a Damning Quote. Damning Quotes are also evaluated by their substance, not by the substance of other quotes. Frankly and directly, the DQ and SSQ seem to be in direct conflict. "Harmonizing" them (possibility #1) basically means ignoring one in favor of the other.

Those who would seek to defend EGW here on the FAF Forum must essentially then show why the substance of the Damning Quotes should be disregarded/ignored in favor of the SS quotes.

Hope that makes sense.

(Message edited by agapetos on November 14, 2006)
Timmy
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 7:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone, the 'Context' issue is an interesting one. You said, "In other words, we can easily say that something was "taken out of context", but if we don't show how it was taken out of context and show that it means something different than what was charged, then we have not proved anything at all."

When I was transitioning out of SDAism a pastors wife told me that my voting issue was taken 'out of context' my reply to her was, "well, can you put it in context for me?" (not to mention that I got my context from an SDA pastor) She said, "Ellen says, in another book somewhere, that people were to go vote for an issue on the Sabbath." Of course my knee jerk answer was, "So I can read the entire book of Fundamentals of Christian Education, but I can't properly apply anything in it until I read all of Mrs. Whites books?" She then changed the subject and accused me of being stubburn and just looking for an excuse to doubt her writings.. or something like that, (It was about two years ago)

The point is, I came to the conclusion that when they say "context context context" that this is their way getting out of the situation, there is no point in taking it any further (in my opinion). They can use one line from her writings, like "She is a lessor light pointing to a greater light." (Someone said, who needs a flashlight to find the sun?) and thats O.K. even if a page before she says, "The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy." - placing her writings equal with the Scriptures

Another point about context is this. Whether or not these lines are in context I have 37 years of experiance in the SDA church that demonstrated the practice and implications of their beliefs. This includes Academy, Andrews University and several churches. The mentality, application and practice of the church tells me that they believe Mrs. Whites writings are at LEAST equal with the Bible. In my minds eye, saying otherwise is misrepresenting the SDA denomination.

O.K. I'm done, :-)
Loneviking
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 7:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agapetos, in the original thread I also posted quotes by leading SDA ministers/publications including the secretary of the White estate and the S.S. quarterly that agree with those EGW quotes. Can you see now how ridiculous it is to say 'those quotes are out of context' while at the same time many SDA's including the leaders of the church and leading publications, accept and use those quotes exactly the way I presented them? They don't seem to think that putting EGW on a level with the Bible is a problem and she certainly gave them cause to do so.

WOW sounds a bit like Tom Norris whining about how EGW and her writings have been abused by the church while no one knows the real story. It's a bit hard to argue with a conspiracy theorist who has no hard evidence to back up their theory.

So, this whole exercise of examining the quotes in context is a waste of time. WOW will never agree that they are in context. He will cling to EGW no matter what---so why bother. We formers know darn good and well what the SDA church teaches, so why rehash old history?

Bill
Raven
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's an easy one that in my mind proves hands down EGW was at least a false teacher who contradicted the Bible. SDA's and formers can argue up one side and down the other about how Biblically correct certain teachings are. And they can argue forever about EGW quotes in context and EGW's own contradictory statements.

But what about the tithe? As far as I remember, EGW is quite clear about our obligation to mandatory tithing, and that it's a monetary tithe, 10% of one's income period. Yes, she did have some contradictory statements on where the tithe should go, but no question about it--EGW completely taught that God expects Christians to faithfully tithe. (At least that's what she started teaching after "Systematic Benevolence" failed--wasn't that supposed to be inspired also?)

When my daughter, a few years ago, questioned me about the SDA practice of tithing and I set out to see what the Bible teaches about tithing, my eyes were opened. EGW was dead wrong on the tithing issue, and that alone proves she did not get her "inspiration" from God.

For anyone who wants a very concise and well-written weblink on why tithing was never meant for Christians, here's a good one I came across recently:
http://www.nomoretithing.org/
Flyinglady
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven,
Thanks for the website. I went there and read some of it. It is exactly what I think after I studied tithing.
In the DiscoveryE course I took at my church the last section was about stewardship with Mal 3:10 quoted. I did a study of tithing and on the day we studied stewardship I told the teacher what I had found. I remember he listened graciously. Then last year I made an appointment to talk to our head pastor and give him books written by Ratzlaff and Martin. While talking to him I told him what I had found out about tithing. He, to, was gracious. I told both times about the knee jerk reaction I get when tithe is mentioned because of my background. That is the one thing I disagree with this church, so when tithe is mentioned, and it is only when the offering is taken up, I tell myself that God loves a cheerful giver.
I have book marked that site and am thinking of printing it and sending it to my pastor. I will pray about it.
Diana
Tisha
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW, I give up! If you want truth, you must decide who/what you are going to believe has/is truth. Unless you can totally throw out anyone/anything teaching untruth, and turn to reading the Bible only, with an open mind and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you, you will continue to see things filtered through your old "lenses" of SDA untruth.

I don't think you have really given up believing that EGW and the SDA church have the truth, at least as I read your posts supporting EGW. She is either completely right, or she is a false prophet. She may have said some nice things, even some correct things. But she said many false things and claimed they came through her directly from God. This makes her a false prophet. Until you can admit this, I don't see how you can detach from your old belief system, and embrace a correct view of Grace and Salvation.

I'm not saying one cannot be saved as an SDA, but it sure makes it hard to live a life of Joy and Thankfulness for the gift of Salvation right now.

Nothing we can do or say will make any difference until you allow the Holy Spirit in to guide your search for truth. All I can do is pray for you.

I pray that you are sincerely seeking for the real Truth that only the Bible teaches. I pray that the stranglehold the SDA church has on you will be loosed and you can feel free from EGW and her false teachings. I pray you can really know the true Joy in having an assurance of Salvation right now, not some time in the future.

-tisha
Mwh
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven and Diana, my favorite tithing website is: http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com

I have translated the essay there to Danish and afterwards sent it out to all the Danish Christians that I know. Got two comments on it, but I'm sure that the truth about tithing will set many Christians free.

In Christ
Flyinglady
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The church I attend does not say we have to tithe, but in the DiscoveryE course it is highly recommended. Because of my study on tithe, I do not pay a tithe, but I do give cheerfully and that is what God wants.
He is so awesome.
Diana
Susans
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone,

I would like to comment on the context of quote #1. I read the entire letter that EGW wrote as recorded in 1 Selected Messages pages 160-161. You are correct in your interpretation that EGW says that Scripture cannot be used to dispute the "foundation" of the message from the past 50 years.

Exactly what "foundational truth" was EGW saying is indisputable and not to be challenged with Scripture? The same "truth" that honest SDA scholars admit has no biblical support: that anything prophetic occurred in 1844, and the unbiblical doctrine of Christ's ministry in the sanctuary - in other words, the investigative judgement.

EGW said this just before the quote was given: "After the passing of the time in 1844 they received the light and walked in the light, and when the men claiming to have new light would come in with their wonderful messages regarding various points of Scripture, we had, through the moving of the Holy Spirit, testimonies right to the point, which cut off the influence of such messages as Elder G has been devoting his time to presenting.[REFERENCE IS HERE MADE TO TEACHINGS ON THE SANCTUARY QUESTION--AT VARIANCE WITH THOSE HELD BY SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS THROUGH THE YEARS--WHICH DENIED THE FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY IN 1844 AND REPUDIATED THE MINISTRY OF CHRIST IN THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT.--COMPILERS.]

When the power of God testifies as to what is truth, that truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after suppositions contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained.

Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise, and still another, with new light, which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit.

A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat, and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard bearers who have fallen in death are to speak through the reprinting of their writings.

I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time.

And, right AFTER the quote, she said this: Elder G's proofs are not reliable. If received, they would destroy the faith of God's people in the truth that has made us what we are.

We must be decided on this subject; for the points that he is trying to prove by Scripture, are not sound. They do not prove that the past experience of God's people was a fallacy.

We had the truth; we were directed by the angels of God. It was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that the presentation of the sanctuary question was given. It is eloquence for every one to keep silent in regard to the features of our faith in which they acted no part.

God never contradicts Himself. Scripture proofs are misapplied if forced to testify to that which is not true. Another and still another will arise and bring in supposedly great light, and make their assertions.

But we stand by the old landmarks.

She even called using Scripture to say this doctrine was not correct was a SIN! Listen to her next lines: I am instructed to say that these words we may use as appropriate for this time, for the time has come when sin must be called by its right name.

We are hindered in our work by men who are not converted, who seek their own glory.

They wish to be thought originators of new theories, which they present claiming that they are truth.

But if these theories are received, they will lead to a denial of the truth that for the past fifty years God has been giving to His people, substantiating it by the demonstration of the Holy Spirit.--Letter 329, 1905. {1SM 162.1}

That constitutes the ENTIRE letter and the ENTIRE context. EGW said that a doctrine that even the SDA scholars will admit privately (and some openly) CANNOT be supported from Scripture yet EGW says you CANNOT use Scripture to say this doctrine is NOT correct. SDA's have as a FUNDAMENTAL belief that in 1844 Christ "moved from the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary to the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary (of which the earthy was a type of the TRUE 2 apartment sanctuary that is literally in heaven) and began to then begin the work of investigative judgement of all professed believers in Him from Adam forward; first with the dead and then sometime (no one is sure) when the names of the living would be brought up one by one. When their name came up, Jesus would pronounce either "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still, or he that is just, let him be just still." For that person, at that moment, probation had closed forever. When the last case was decided, Jesus (or Michael) would STAND UP, and leave the heavenly sanctuary, and the people on earth would be left WITHOUT a mediator in the sanctuary.

I shiver to write such hellish stuff! The bible says He forever lives to make intercession for us!



(Message edited by SusanS on November 14, 2006)
Susans
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry I misquoted Revelation: it should read "he that is unjust let him be unjust still, and he that is holy let him be holy still".

This idea of a literal 2 apartment sanctuary in heaven was taught early on, but later was amended to say that Jesus was applying the merits of his atonement in the sanctuary, as His ministry in heaven. This waters down the original doctrine that EGW said was given to the early Adventists by GOD Himself and will NEVER be any different.

After the close of probation, Jesus would present Himself before the Father and He would be given the kingdom. The reason believers had to be perfect and sinless was because Jesus was no longer in the sanctuary being Priest, He had now be designated King. In the time (I can't remember exactly how long) between when He left heaven with His angels to return to earth, the people who were to be translated were then "own their own" so to speak, because there was no more mediator! This is why we have to be perfect in the end times! What heresy!
Jeremy
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a link to a related post of mine, and in the next post of mine on that thread I quoted from the above letter and also posted a similar quotation with plenty of context (the second quote in the post).

Jeremy
Susans
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Jeremy. Bill is right, this has been hashed out before here, and we formers know full well why she is to be rejected since she was a false prophet. We have seen as well that the denomination will place her writings over the bible, because without Ellen, the SDA church has no reason to exist. And, without Ellen, there would be no book sales, because who would pay all that money to read false visions of a false prophet? I could not begin to imagine the amount of money they would lose if not selling her books.

On an ironic note, as I was at the White Estate home page, I noticed that the 2006 book of the year was Early Writings! I know it's different than the FIRST edition of Early Writings! Why would that be since as your quote says: I am thankful that the instruction contained in my books establishes present truth for this time. These books were written under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I praise the Lord with heart and soul and voice, and I pray that He will lead into all truth those who will be led. I praise Him that He has so wonderfully spared my life up to this time, to bear the same message upon the important points of our faith that I have borne for half a century." (Manuscript Release No. 760: The Integrity of the Sanctuary Truth, page 22, paragraph 1-page 23, paragraph 4.) Does the Holy Spirit really need an editor???????????

Susan

(Message edited by SusanS on November 14, 2006)
Jeremy
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the entire letter (as much as has been published at least) that I mentioned above that I posted most of several months ago:


quote:

"I am much pleased that the blessing of the Lord has accompanied your labors in San Diego. I should be much pleased to get a letter from you giving some particulars of your work. Is the interest still good? It is in just such places as San Diego that work needs to be done. I have felt so sorry, as I have seen time passing, that so little is being accomplished. I am deeply interested in the work you have been doing in Los Angeles and in San Diego. I rejoice to learn that in San Diego souls have accepted the truth.

I should be very much pleased to visit San Diego and Loma Linda, but it would be very difficult for me to leave my workers just now and still accomplish the work that I desire to do. There is a large pile of unpublished matter relating to our early experience in the message that should be re-published. The instruction given me is that the words of the Lord should not be lost, but should be ever kept in mind, because we are constantly in danger of losing the truth out of the soul and gathering up things that are out of the line of truth, things that will lead to confusion.

The truths given us after the passing of the time in 1844 are just as certain and unchangeable as when the Lord gave them to us in answer to our urgent prayers. The visions that the Lord has given me are so remarkable that we know that what we have accepted is the truth. This was demonstrated by the Holy Spirit. Light, precious light from God, established the main points of our faith as we hold them today. And these truths are to be kept before the mind. We must arouse from the position of lukewarmness, from being neither cold nor hot. We need increased faith and more earnest trust in God. We must not be satisfied to remain where we are. We must advance step by step, from light to greater light.

The Lord will certainly do great things for us if we will hunger and thirst after righteousness. We are the purchased property of Jesus Christ. We must not lose our devotion, our consecration. We are in conflict with the errors and delusions that have to be swept away from the minds of those who have not acted upon the light they already have. Bible truth is our only safety. I know and understand that we are to be established in the faith, in the light of the truth given us in our early experience. At that time one error after another pressed in upon us, and ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines. We would search the Scriptures with much prayer and the Holy Spirit would bring the truth to our minds. Sometimes whole nights would be devoted to searching the Scriptures and earnestly asking God for guidance. Companies of earnest, devoted men and women assembled for this purpose. The power of God would come upon me and I was enabled clearly to define what is truth and what is error.

As the points of our faith were thus established, our feet were placed upon a solid foundation. We accepted the truth point by point under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I would be taken off in vision and explanations would be given me. I was given illustrations of heavenly things and of the sanctuary, so that we were placed where light was shining on us in clear, distinct rays.

All these truths are immortalized in my writings. The Lord never denies His Word. Men may get up scheme after scheme, and the enemy will seek to seduce souls from the truth, but all who believe that the Lord has spoken through Sister White, and has given her a message, will be safe from the many delusions that will come in in these last days.

I know that the sanctuary question stands in righteousness and truth just as we have held it for so many years. It is the enemy that leads minds off on sidetracks. He is pleased when those who know the truth become engrossed in collecting Scriptures to pile up around erroneous theories, which have no foundation in truth. The Scriptures thus used are misapplied; they were not given to substantiate error, but to strengthen truth.

So you see that it is impossible for us to have any agreement with the positions taken by Brother A. F. Ballenger, for no lie is of the truth. His proofs do not belong where he places them, and although he may lead minds to believe his theory in regard to the sanctuary, this is no evidence that his theory is true. We have had a plain and decided testimony to bear for half a century. The positions taken in my books are truth. The truth was revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, and we know that Brother Ballenger's position is not according to the Word of God. This theory is a deceiving theory and he misapplies Scriptures. Theories of the kind that he has been presenting, we have had to meet again and again.

I am thankful that the instruction contained in my books establishes present truth for this time. These books were written under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I praise the Lord with heart and soul and voice, and I pray that He will lead into all truth those who will be led. I praise Him that He has so wonderfully spared my life up to this time, to bear the same message upon the important points of our faith that I have borne for half a century.

My health is good and my mind clear. For this I praise the Lord. Generally I write from two or three o'clock in the morning until six or seven at night. On rising I take a sponge bath, dress, and then build my fire. Usually I write all day. The Lord is good and greatly to be praised. "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me bless His holy name" (Psalms 103:1).--Letter 50, 1906. (To W. W. Simpson, January 30, 1906.)" (Manuscript Release No. 760: The Integrity of the Sanctuary Truth, page 21, paragraph 5-page 23, paragraph 4.)




Is this "out of context"? Or did she really claim what we said she did?

Jeremy
Jeremy
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In these quotes posted by Susan and I, EGW is putting herself ABOVE the Bible. Not even equal to--but above!

Jeremy
Susans
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whew! Now I have a headache! This is the first time in years I've actually read this stuff. :-( I'm on Eastern Standard time so if no one tackles it, on Thursday I'll post about quote 4 and 7 since they are in the same letter written to the church at Battle Creek where Ellen compares herself to Paul.

Blessings to all,
Susan
Jeremy
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, you missed a part of the "timeline" according to SDA/EGW. Before coming to earth, when Jesus leaves the "Heavenly Sanctuary," He takes all of the sins of the righteous (which He polluted the Most Holy Place with by His blood!) and places them on Satan who, as scapegoat, bears the sins for a thousand years, after being set free (scapegoat, Lev. 16) to roam around in the wilderness/on the surface of the earth (which is supposed to be the abyss/bottomless pit, where Satan is chained up according to Revelation 20, not set free!). Then Satan bears the penalty/punishment of the sins of the righteous, and they are then and only then (according to EGW) forever removed from the righteous as far as the east is from the west and blotted out of existence. Only then are the sins actually gotten rid of. Only then is it safe to say you are saved. Only then are the sins remembered against them no more. Only then is the atonement completed and the Day of Atonement fulfilled.

By Satan.

*goes to throw up*

Jeremy

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