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Aliza
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Username: Aliza

Post Number: 80
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 6:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We all know that the gospel commission to SDAs is to make people Adventists. Looking back, I wonder if I hadn't had subconscious doubts for years because I couldn't personally get into sheep stealing. Oh, I viewed them as fair game if they walked in the door for a seminar, but personally I just didn't feel comfortable inviting people to church.

So my ministry, for the most part, was within the walls of the church: teaching, providing ancillary support, church board member. It was really easy as SDA to be massively busy doing the "work of the Lord" and never leave the four walls of the church.

Now as I go about my church shopping each week, I check a lot of websites and I've been listening to announcements, reading bulletins etc. A lot of "ministry" opportunities still surround things within the church: be a greeter, Sunday School teacher, member of the worship team etc. Now, these are all well and good. Obviously they have to get done to have a well run church.

But I've come to view ministry as looking more outward. I'm on an e-mail list of Al Maxey who consistently stomps the legalism within the Church of Christ. A recent comment he made got me curious as to what you think:


quote:

"If a group of disciples is just
'keeping house,' and they are not really involved in their community, the
likelihood is that they would never be missed in their community if they
closed their doors tomorrow. Why? Because they were never relevant in the
first place. They were not impacting their community."




I would ask...
Do you view outreach differently now on the other side of Adventism?

What is your church doing as outreach?

Aliza
Ric_b
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that our church could do more. And as quickly as I think that and write it I am forced to ask myself what am I going to do about that.

One thing that I like at our church is the emphasis on personal evangelism. Outreach isn't a program that you can give some money to, or volunteer once a month in order to check off that obligation. Instead the emphasis in on making evangelism a part of your life.

In SDAism evangelism was primarily "sheep stealing" (I can't spell that "p" word!), convincing Christians that they needed to join the "true church." Now I see evangelism in terms of Jesus and His grace. I am far more interested in promoting God's invisible church than worrying about the label above the door of the church a person ultimately chooses to attend.

As much as I agree with the focus on personal evangelism, I also think that a church can organize service opportunities well and through that organization, encourage people to serve others. This is one of the things that most impressed me about Vineyard churches. Of all the churches that we visited the Vineyard church near us stood head and shoulders above all others in having an organized and meaningful service program in the community.
U2bsda
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe outreach is the most important thing the church can do. Everything a church does should all come back to the purpose of sharing the good news. Excellent teaching is important, but if we do nothing with it then what is our purpose? The Christian should be purpose-driven. Now, I'm not talking about the book people know - I haven't even read it. I'm reminded of a different book I read where a story is told. The man in charge left a group of people on a plot of land. He told them to cut the grass and he would come back later. They spent much time and energy on building a house and upkeeping it and remodeling it and focused little on the grass. When the man in charge returned the people showed him the wonderful house with all the nice things inside. And the man in charge asked them "why didn't you cut the grass? All I asked you to do was cut the grass." I've found the church today caught up into so many things which may be good things, but they have neglected the number one purpose of a Christian - to share the Gospel.

I do believe the job of spreading the good news belongs to the church and that the church should take that responsibility seriously. I believe every Christian should take hold of the responsiblity to reach the unreached either by going themselves or sending someone to take their place.

Yes, I do see outreach differently. As an Adventist I though everyone had to be an Adventist - that was the view of outreach. I thought that telling someone about the Sabbath was witnessing.

Our church is new to us so I don't know everything they are doing yet. I do know that they help support over 20 missionaries. Recently they have a Harvest Jam with a carnival type atmosphere for the community. Throughout the activity there were dramas where the Gospel was shared. In that one day over 100 people professed faith in Jesus Christ. Praise God!
River
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aliza,
I may be all wet on my thinking but I have given a lot of thought to your subject, funny you should bring it up.
I have deeply pondered the position of the ěchurchî and its place in evangelism and I have come to conclude that the ěChurchî is ělimitedî in that respect and here is what I mean.
As far as community outreach, there are some things that possibly could be accomplished, such as soup and soap. But does that reach the community or a niche of the community, now when I say ěcommunityî I mean reaching the lost for Christ to all the community.
Now the saved donít need saved so there is a few we do not need to be concerned with. We just a lot of the time donít know who that is.
Now we could put giant loud speakers on the outside of our building but somehow I donít think that would fly.
So who gets the responsibility to go after the great unwashed? Jesus? Just leave it to doctrine of election and say ěhe will save them anyway, we donít need to botherî I really donít think that dog will hunt either.
The conclusion I have come to is that the ěChurchî is just sticks stuck together so we can have a place to meet without getting rained on, speaking of it in that context.
So who gets the responsibility to grow the stick church,, the pastor, no heís a sheep herder, the board of deacons? No they do other duties, I have never found out what but they must do something.
What it boils down to is personal evangelism, yep, you got the job. If we as individuals donít do it, I just do not see how it will get done. Oh, one or two will wander in every once in a while and then we can pat each other on the back and say what a great job we are doing.
Now there is a thing or two we could do as a corporate group, we could put on a T.V. show or bring in a Rock Group Iím not sure this would bring any to Christ, I doubt it.
So I ask myself one day, what to I expect out of my ěChurchî other than they follow doctrine and make reasonable effort at missions, you know, the thing ěChurchesî normally do. The word that spells W.I.F.E.
And I came to the conclusion that they need to be friendly, show friendship and I promptly left the church I was in and am in the church I am now.
I ask myself this simple question, would I feel good about inviting anyone to come here? The other church I was in got a ěnoî grade, I even ask the question of my wife and she said no she would not be comfortable in inviting someone there, so I left. The church I am in now gets a ěyesî grade; I have and will invite someone there.
My reasoning on this is that if the responsibility falls on me to go out and bring them in, the church sure has the responsibility to make them at least feel welcome. I demand that, itís not an option.
If we as individuals do not reach the community I just donít see much impact. Just my opinion.
Flyinglady
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The church I attend has many outreach programs. They feed the homeless, have a school program where at the beginning of the school year the children in the public schools near us have school supplies for the school year, they have teams that go to various countries to build houses/churches-this is done in conjunction with a sister church, and many others. Every one is encouraged to get involved in one of the programs. I volunteer to greet people as they come in the door of the church. There are volunteers for the children and youth programs also. Once a year the head pastor gives a sermon on the finances of the church and what has been accomplished and the plans. Just recently a sister church has been opened on the other side of the valley. Our church service is seen at this other church. The program for this next year is to make sure children in Clark County have food to eat on weekends. The larger program is going to be in conjunction with an organization that wants to do something about the trafficing of children from somewhere in Malaysia to all parts of the world, even the USA. This will take money and LOTS of people.
As for personal outreach, the way God has used me so far is to ask one of the woman with who I work how she is doing as she had some problems. I check with her every day. When her Mom was not sure if she had cancer or not, I prayed for her and her Mom. It turns out, Mom did not have cancer. I guess you could say, just being a friend and really meaning it. This woman is not liked by many with whom I work. It is just being a friend to those who need it and listening to them when they want to talk. Every one knows I am a former SDA and have asked questions, which I answered. One woman asked me about the gospel. She is the one whose Mom may have had cancer. She is also Jewish. I ask God to use me any way he wants at work and where ever I go and when He provides an opportunity, I do what ever He presents to me.
I have invited my colleagues to church. Four other people where I work attend my church-a RN, a pharmacist, the Rehab tech, and the COTA that lives near me. The pharmacist attends most regularly. It is so good to have other christians at work to whom I can talk. Oh, the secretary who works on Med surg ward is an SDA. With her, I am friendly. We do not talk religion. God has presented all kinds of opportunities to do outreach and all I can do is do it. Sometimes it is not until I have done something that I realize it was something God presented to me to do.
So, that is how I see outreach and do it.
Diana
Timmy
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aliza, If I said the difference on the outside was like night and day, it would be an understatement. My new church is very invloved in the community. If there is a community event, they are there, full steam. Like, The cancer run, building projects, parades, etc.

They even had a big bon fire right in the front yard, speaking of grass, it trashed the grass, but it was an awareness/fundraiser for all the people in the comunity that had lost their jobs for various reasons and couldn't pay their heat bills. That night we raised thousands of dollars and paid several heat bills for several homes.(the grass grew back)

Every year 20-30 people volunteer and go to mexico to build houses for the locals. My son and I went last year, it was a real experience both for both of us. I think he had culture shock. I was amazed at what they lived in. Some of 'houses' were worse than most chicken coops here. Anyway, last year we built 4 houses in 4 days. We met up with about 100 other people representing about 12 denominations total.

There is way way more but I don't want to write all night.

I agree with your statement about working but never leaving the walls. This new mentality took some time for us to get used to.

This is a side note, but along the same lines... Yesterday an old friend wanted to meet me for lunch. When we got together he seemed rather excited about something but waited until the small talk was over to let it out. Then he told me, about six months ago he became a Christian! He said he couldn't wait to tell me because he knew I was a Christian. We celebrated and I congradulated him, he told me how much better he felt and how he wanted to share his new experience with everyone. I am so happy.

Today I was thinking about that. 3 years ago while still an SDA I do not think I would have been happy. Joy only came when a Christian accepted the Sabbath. I remember people at the old SDA church telling of someone accepting Christ and it would be silent, then they would say on such and such of day they accepted the Sabbath, then all the amens would ring out. That seems so sad. Looking back it gives me perspective of how much more important the 'Tablets of Stone' were than Jesus himself.

Anyhow, God bless you on your church hunt. I am sure God has a place with your name on it, and he can't wait for you see it!
Agapetos
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was a missionary at Osaka Center SDA church (8/1999-8/2000) I had the exact same thought. A friend who was a missionary there the year before me actually confessed the thought to me first... "If the church disappeared, the community wouldn't know." This led to me eventually giving away extra food to homeless people I passed on the way to "my mission" at the church (teaching English, etc.). Some others began helping, but it eventually got us into trouble. But that's another story.

May His heart cause us to see outside our walls and embrace the hurting...
Stevendi
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As an sda, I did not share my "faith" because I always felt the conflict between what Christ taught about the values of His kingdom, and the doctrinal spiderweb of the sda church. I even used to tell my pastor that I could not invite friends to a church whose main purpose would be to first, snag them with a fear-based message (are you really saved?), secondly, cement them into the culture by constant reinforcement of the church-authority, "only we have the truth", saturday-worship (as in idol), and the whole thing of placing egw on an equal or superior status with the Word. Why would I want to place my friends into this situation when I can simply tell them how God has worked His grace into my life and then trust Him to walk them through their own journey? I always look at things in terms of how God's Spirit works in us, not how we seek to earn His acceptance. One thing I have learned from Jesus: A religion that condemns, judges, obstructs others from Him, seeks to eliminate outsiders is based on evil forces. By their fruits....
Aliza
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've done a total about face on how I view my personal outreach. Now, I view it as a "marketplace ministry" approach much like Diana was talking about. Here is a daily e-mail I got just today from a friend of mine that explains it a bit:


quote:

Reflection 159 - Tearing Down Strongholds

Stronghold # 6 - "My Job will Never Amount to Anything!"

"For we are God's fellow workers;" 1 Corinthians 3:9 NIV

How many times have I said that? How about you? That's one of the major reasons we change jobs. We change jobs like socks. Why is that? I believe it's because we don't understand our calling from God.

God has called you to follow Him wherever you are in life. The job is somewhat secondary in nature in that your primary role in the marketplace is to serve God as a marketplace minister. That means wherever you are He is ready to use you. That can be in the worst job ever or the best. It can be in a dead end job or one that only lasts for a year.

The key, as Ed Silvoso puts it, is that we are to learn how to embrace our job. That means to become part of the system and make the system better. You need to recognize how you and your job fits into the system and then do it with excellence as you fellowship with the people you work with.

Have you ever considered that approach? It's not too late.
Let's Pray in the Name of Jesus Christ: Heavenly Father, we ask that You would give us a clear understanding of our calling. Please show us how we can serve You and Your Kingdom as we are in the marketplace. Give us Your perspective on our jobs. Amen.



Jack's website: http://www.themmconnection.com/articles.asp?columnid=2524

Probably the premier website with lots of articles to learn about your calling to be a "minister" on the job is for Os Hillman: http://www.marketplaceleaders.org/

What I found so exciting is when God was able to shift me into the watching mode and recognize that "coincidences" are often "divine appointments". Then it became very easy to walk through the door that the Holy Spirit had opened.

For me, my choice of church is one that embraces training people to live 24/7 for Jesus and how to live for Him throughout the week. I've found some pastors who feel threatened by this mode of thinking. It's like they feel it's the Christian's role to drag someone by the arm and get them into the church where the pastor can preach a sermon that calls them to Christ.

Unfortunately, that's exactly how many looked at churches for too long. It led to the big evangelistic meetings going on inside churches. I see a shift with many becoming more cognizant of their role as a Christian ready for action 24/7. Pastors who are resisting I'm afraid may be left behind with trying to make their church the focus of ministry.

Anyone else moving outside of compartmentalizing Jesus as working primarily within the church building?

Aliza






Timmy
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 7:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stevendi, That is amazing, and well said. So is it safe to assume that you view ministry differently on the outside of SDAism?

I heard a non denom pastor say... "It is hard to get a person out of a cult, but if you do, watch out, they will take the gospel and spread it like a wild fire..."
River
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aliza wrote: I see a shift with many becoming more cognizant of their role as a Christian ready for action 24/7. Pastors who are resisting I'm afraid may be left behind with trying to make their church the focus of ministry.
I believe you are 110 percent correct in your outlook.
Shepardís donít have sheep, sheep have sheep. The church building is a place to bring them too so that they can be Pastored and grow in Christ.
Sure have the alter calls, but if we huddle behind our walls?
You go girl.
Stevendi
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Timmy, My ministry (personally and through our non-denom church) has become easier in many ways. Our projects include support for divorcees, loss of family members, small support groups for men and women, community projects, etc. I am also on the worship praise team (which rocks), and a personal prison ministry. I am a deacon with no responsibilities but to pray with anyone who asks. I would say that is the difference from my sda experience. No one has ever challenged my style of worship, nor any moderate deviation from our core of beliefs. If you are interested, our web site is Rock Creek Church.org. You are right that it is hard to "get out", but thanks to FAF and others, I am very comfortable looking for opportunities to share with anyone what God has done in our lives. Is not that our commission?
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tim, I love that quote, "It is hard to get a person out of a cult, but if you do, watch out, they will take the gospel and spread it like a wild fire..."

Isnt' that the truth?! Yes, evangelism looks completely different to me, too. I've had people comment to me that once they decide to leave and take their stand for Jesus and let Adventism go, they have so many unsolicited opportunities that present themselves for witnessing about Jesus. It's like you said, AlizaóGod brings these "chance" encounters (which are really divine appointments) and allows us to do two things at once: answer questions and witness about Jesus, and simultaneously grow in our own foundation in truth as we articulate our experiences and new Biblical beliefs.

It's amazing!

Colleen
Susans
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I haven't changed my ministry that much in that I still use work as a venue to share the gospel, except as an SDA I was always trying to share "the truth" (ie Sabbath) and now I share who Jesus is to me and how He is working in my life at the moment.

Susan
Flyinglady
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just have to tell you all how God is using me at my job. I really like the people with whom I work. If some one needs help there are others there who offer to help them and that is for personal, away from the job things. The manager of our department is very flexible. I came out of her office this morning, thanking God for her flexibility and saw Angie, one of the therapists. I walked up to her and hugged her, telling her I really enjoyed working with her. What she said showed me that God is using me, but I did not realize it until later. Angie told me that when I am at work, I bring a peace with me. I mentioned this compliment to Kathy and she agreed with Angie. That is when I realized that it is God's peace they feel and not mine. Thank you God for your peace. You are so awesome.
Diana
Randyg
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank-you for this thread,

Like many of you I have found it so much more exciting and easy to share what God has done for me.

That is my witness, the joy of a relationship with Jesus. I share that daily with my patients at work, as so many are searching for meaning in their lives.

I share with them about the wonderful Church that I attend, and how it has allowed me to become a more joyous Christian, and empathetic person. I invite people to my church because I know they will recieve a blessing, and I know the Holy Spirit is there EVERY week. It is a palpable feeling.

As much as I love and loved my fellow Adventists I could never invite someone seeking spiritual peace and joy to the Adventist church, because I could not find it there. I however never looked elsewhere, for the reasons that bound us all there.

It was not until a time of crisis that I dared to seek God somewhere other than in an Adventist church.

While still recovering from the effects of crisis, I thank God that he is faithful to His children when they cry out.

Never would I have thought he would have led me out of Adventism, into His loving arms, and ongoing, unconditional grace.

I guess now my witness is to share Jesus alone, and not to convert someone into a church.

Peace all,

Randy
Flyinglady
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Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God wants us to be witnesses. He does the convicting and converting. It makes sharing what God has done for me so much better. Just tell what God has done for me. How he has changed me.
Hallelujah!! He is awesome.
Diana
Stevendi
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 6:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Randy, you coined it for me! "I could never invite someone seeking spiritual peace and joy to the Adventist church, because I could not find it there." That sums up my experience precisely. Those who deny it just don't get it. Thank you.
Aliza
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 7:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's so exciting to see how similar our experiences are. While we all might have felt comfortable within the SDA "family" that became our life, we didn't have the joy that we have now.

I guess that's why we all love to quote Diana with "God is awesome!"

Yes, like Randy, I'm looking for a church where the Holy Spirit is so obviously present. And where you can sense the radiance of those around you who are in love with Jesus. It's just so different. If you try to explain it to your SDA friends or family they just sort of stare at you. Just more indications of the spiritual nature of the battle for finding the real Truth--Jesus.

Aliza
Agapetos
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of all this...

I went to a church we sometimes have visited on Saturday nights... it's non-denominational & charismatic (but not in a forcible way). I usually stay for the renewal meeting following the main worship, but last night I went to a project that one of the worship leaders & a friend started in Namba...

The Namba area is the second-largest transportation & shopping hub in Osaka. In particular there's one place called "The American Villiage" (Ame-mura) where there are hordes of young people decked out in crazed fashion, listening to all whatever music there is, sitting around smoking, etc. There are some head shops there, as well as fortune-tellers, a few occult shops, etc.

My friend (the worship leader), Jumpei, started an outreach there. They've been worshiping there in Ame-mura for about five months. They'd had an apartment there where they could take people for prayer, but it was too expensive. Last night they "broke in" a new apartment with worship... the new place is cheaper, just under $1000 a month. It was my first visit. I'm praying about how to help more.

Since starting worshiping & talking to people there (they call it "treasure hunting"), five people have received Jesus and been baptized. Please pray for them & everyone in the area.

An illustration of my wake-up to what happens in the area at night... as my new friend Tom & I got into the elevator to go up to the 5th floor where the new apartment is, a foreigner got into the elevator with us (there are a good handful of foreigners you can see in this area). He said he'd heard there was dope he could get in the building somewhere. Well, I hadn't heard that before! He got off on 3rd, and we went to 5th. Later we learned that just this or last month one of the tenants of the building (which contains a few apartments, some clubs & shops) was on the news, having been arrested for drugs. Don't know if the foreigner was looking for that guy, but there are probably still drugs in the building, and of course in the area.

My friend found an apartment exactly where they (the Church) need to be! Praise God! And please pray for them. :-)

(Message edited by agapetos on November 18, 2006)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praying, Ramone...

Colleen
Flyinglady
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone, you are in my prayers.
Diana
Helovesme2
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praying here too.

Mary
U2bsda
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agapetos,

Praise God for leading them to start a church there! It sounds like a place Jesus would hang out. I'm praying for them.

I think that says alot about a church when people in the church get together and start a project to reach out to others with the good news. I've found rule-based churches tend to focus inward trying to better themselves while freedom-based churches tend to focus outward wanting to share the good news of Jesus.
Cathy2
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Prayers sent, Ramone~

This reminds me of an older couple we knew, once. They were part of a small Christian group, who began a 'church' between two bars in the
red-light district in town. I was not a part of their denomination nor doctrine, but I had to admire this Christ in action.

Cathy
Aliza
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 5:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know a pastor who had a church but felt the Lord moving him to something else. He started a Dream Center in a difficult area of his city. A combination area of the worst of the worst and area that was the "Bourbon Street" of the city with Mardi Gras atmosphere every Friday and Saturday night drawing people from around the world. The city would block the streets for the revelry each week.

His ministry worked diligently utilizing volunteers, especially college students every summer who came into the area and would primarily work nights when the prostitutes and druggies were out.

He had a team of intercessors who walked the land and prayed over the area faithfully. Now after several years the city has decided they made a huge mistake at promoting the area as the party place. They no longer will be blocking the streets. The city won't give new liquor licenses to any business that goes out of business in order to draw in more family types of businesses. Currently it's nightclub after nightclub after nightclub. The worst city slum project is going to be torn down and they are rehousing the people to really nice new public housing throughout the city.

So now was the time to start a new "church" which is held within a Starbucks kind of place. Praise God for people who listen to the Holy Spirit and minister in creative ways. It also shows the power of intercessory prayer that's been talked about on another thread.

Aliza

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