| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3039 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, as I read you post to me, my eyes welled up with tears as I thought of my blood family and one sister in particular who can be very hateful. I love her so much and God has had me pray for her, placing her in my mind when I am praying. My 12 step program taught me I have no control over anyone, and that includes this sister. I have prayed that God give her everything I want for myself which is peace with and a knowledge of God that is a practical everyday knowledge, Like I learned in my 12 step program, and love for my family. My 12 step program has taught me how to let go of people and let God take care of them. Now I am learning to pray for them. Thank you God for River. As I thank God, I think of how I was raised. That was not to trust anyone who was not SDA, because they did not know the truth. I am finding I belong to a large Christian family who loves God with heart, soul, and mind. Diana | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 134 Registered: 9-2006 |
Diana, thank you for a moving testimony. God bless, WalkOnWater tenblo0@hotmail.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3041 Registered: 3-2004 |
Walk, do not be surprised by the comments you will get to your post above. AS for me, I will trust the Bible, no matter what you say or point out as errors of the Bible. The Bible is my rule for life, one day at a time. All I need is Jesus Christ. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3042 Registered: 3-2004 |
Walk, I was thinking as I re read you post above. You said you came here to write a book and if I remember correctly, wanted to know why we are no longer adventist. Yet you make such provocative statements and then do not like the answers you get from us. Remember, we are FORMER adventists, for a reason. We do not believe SDA doctrine. It is based on EGW. We have been there, done that and are no longer there. Are you trying to get us to go back to the SDA church??? That is what it appears to me. But you know what, it will not work. Be very careful what you write. You will not like the answers. So, do not complain when we write something you do not like. I will continue to pray that God lift the veil off of you. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2285 Registered: 3-2005 |
Walk, I would just suggest that you study the evangelical Chicago statement on what inerrancy is and then see if you can make any similar claims for Ellen White: http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/icbi.html Since I have read extensively from the writings of Ellen White including the entire "Conflict of the Ages" series, and I will admit that there are some good things that she copied from others, at the same time, as a Bible student also, I just can't see how you can compare the two sets of writings in anyway. Gleason Archer's book "Bible Difficulties" deals with those problems you mentioned above, as you seemed to mention mostly numbers trivia which can come out looking like an error because of a copyist mistake. Inerrancy is only claimed for the original manuscripts. But there is also an excellent book by F.F. Bruce which is must reading "The New Testament Documents--are they reliable?" Anyway Walk, I have appreciated reading these threads that you have participated in and I think you have conducted yourself quite well. Stan | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 136 Registered: 8-2006  |
Hi Walkonwater, Earlier you quoted Mrs. White saying... "MAN IS FALLIBLE, BUT GOD'S WORD IS INFALLIBLE." The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1885 Then U2 asked you... "Does this mean EGW believes the Bible is free from errors?" Did you answer U2? If you did I apologize, What was the answer? Thanks! Tim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2006 |
Tisha, Yes God is sovereign, no he donít need us to accomplish his will. Jesus told them (Luke 19:40 KJV) And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. We can pray or watch the Boob tube, we can witness or play baseball and many are doing just that. But God for his own reasons has included us in the harvest of souls so that we might rejoice with him at end of harvest, no, we donít pray to MAKE GOD DO SOMETHING. Jesus said (Mat 16:24 KJV) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Mat 16:25 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (Mat 16:27 KJV) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Every man, that means you and me, what are these ìworksî? it is not working to save ourselves, he came to do that job, it is working and laboring with him in his Kingdom, Paul said (2 Cor 10:3 KJV) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (2 Cor 10:4 KJV) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Intercessory Prayer is doing battle in the realm of the unseen, it is pulling down of strongholds, strongholds that effect the ones we love. The one that stands in our way is generally us. We have to ìDie dailyî as Paul put it. Tisha, we donít pray to ìMake God do somethingî we pray to make the deceiver do something, to turn loose of our loved ones. We donít fight God we fight the deceiver and his crowd. That is what intercessory prayer is all about. When we begin to realize that we fight alongside God against a mutual enemy, over time there will probably be changes in the way we view things. I think many of us go around begging God for things and call it prayer but God didnít call us to be beggars. He calls us to be prayer warriors. I know I am guilty. The question is will he be able to say ìWell done my good and faithful servant?î heís not going to lie to us to make us feel better about ourselves Ya know. River | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 335 Registered: 11-2004 |
There were several discrepancies in the Bible just posted to point out that the Bible is not free from error. I do believe the Bible is infallible in the original languages. There may have been errors in translation and sometimes the same thing is told from a different viewpoint. For instance: Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." I don't see the discrepancy here. The same incident is told from two different viewpoints. Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..." Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli" " It is my understanding that one of the geneologies is Mary's and one is Joseph's. I actually first heard that from Adventists. Gen 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die Gen 5:5 says "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." You are right WOW, it does not say spiritual death even though I think that is the obvious meaning. However, as an Adventist I was even taught that they are in harmony because on the day he ate the fruit his body slowly started to decline. Every discrepancy can be explained. We in our finite minds may not grasp how they can be correct, yet they are. If Scripture was fallible then Jesus was a bit silly to quote it all the time and fulfill the prophecies about Him. I do find it interesting that as Jesus was about to die He said "I thirst" to fulfill Scripture (John 19:28) I've noticed some of those prophecies about Jesus were likely so ambiguous to the Jews of His day. If I were a Jew back then I would have never guessed that some of the prophecies about Jesus were talking about Him. The Jews were very knowledgeable about Scripture, yet they completely missed out on what He came to do. In other words, I am saying that we humans may not be able to grasp how all the Bible agrees with itself and does not contradict. Yet, by faith one must accept that the Words of God are what He said they were and trust that we are the ones missing something and not that His Words are in error. It does concern me when Adventists bring down the status of the inspiration of the Bible to lift up EGW. 2 Timothy 3 says " 15And how from your childhood you have had a knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred Writings, which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus [through the [b]leaning of the entire human personality on God in Christ Jesus in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness]. 16Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action), 17So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work." | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 117 Registered: 9-2006 |
Tisha, Yes God is sovereign, no he donít need us to accomplish his will. Jesus told them (Luke 19:40 KJV) And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. We can pray or watch the Boob tube, we can witness or play baseball and many are doing just that. But God for his own reasons has included us in the harvest of souls so that we might rejoice with him at end of harvest, no, we donít pray to MAKE GOD DO SOMETHING. Jesus said (Mat 16:24 KJV) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Mat 16:25 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (Mat 16:27 KJV) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Every man, that means you and me, what are these ìworksî? it is not working to save ourselves, he came to do that job, it is working and laboring with him in his Kingdom, Paul said (2 Cor 10:3 KJV) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (2 Cor 10:4 KJV) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Intercessory Prayer is doing battle in the realm of the unseen, it is pulling down of strongholds, strongholds that effect the ones we love. The one that stands in our way is generally us. We have to ìDie dailyî as Paul put it. Tisha, we donít pray to ìMake God do somethingî we pray to make the deceiver do something, to turn loose of our loved ones. We donít fight God we fight the deceiver and his crowd. That is what intercessory prayer is all about. When we begin to realize that we fight alongside God against a mutual enemy, over time there will probably be changes in the way we view things. I think many of us go around begging God for things and call it prayer but God didnít call us to be beggars. He calls us to be prayer warriors. I know I am guilty. The question is will he be able to say ìWell done my good and faithful servant?î heís not going to lie to us to make us feel better about ourselves Ya know. River | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 147 Registered: 8-2006 |
Walk said "We cannot apply one standard to the writings of Ellen White and another to the Bible". You are correct, we can't because they aren't in the same league or genre. We are not talking "apples and apples" here but "apples and oranges". Two different things, and no need to apply the same standard. The Bible is GOD'S HOLY WORD, and Ellen White's writings are just that...her writings (or her plagiarizings). You believe she is inspired in the same way as the Bible is, we don't. Ellen White will never be held to the standard the Bible is because they have nothing in common with each other. Susan (Message edited by SusanS on November 15, 2006) | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 215 Registered: 3-2005 |
WOW, maybe I am confusing what you mean when you say you are seeking truth. You say you are writing a book about why Former SDAs have left the denomination. If you want the truth of why we left, we have given that to you. You cannot argue about what is MY truth about why I left! You can report that I left because I believe that EGW is a false prophet and thus I believe that the doctrines of the SDAs are false. THAT is MY truth about why I left. I know it is the truth for many if not all the others here. There is no point argueing about this. Now, if you are seeking truth about the Bible and the Gospel, that is another matter all together. You have asked us about what we believe and why we believe it. There is no point to argue with that either except for one reason - that is to voice your questions and hear our answers so you can make an informed decision about what to believe. I see this as a valid reason to "argue" because I think we do this to hear various options and opinions. If that is what you are doing, then fine. We all had questions and argued, either out loud with others or with ourselves, when we began to question our beliefs. I can accept that if this is what you are doing here. Most of us are Former SDA, or involved with SDAs in some way. We do not believe the SDAs have the truth, or we are seriously questioning the SDA doctrines. There is no point to argue with us if your intention is to bring us back to SDAism. So, I am asking you - Why are you argueing with us here? What are your real motives? Can you be honest and let us know why you are really here? I know if you are sincerely seeking the Gospel Truth you will find it. I pray that is what you are doing. I think I will bow out of these discussions for awhile and just "listen". I am learning more and more as I come here. There are so many scholars, so many that can put into words what I only can rattle around in my head. The resources and links that are given here are great! This is such a blessing for me. Thank-you - all of you - for keeping me learning and growing! This doesn't mean I won't throw in my "two-cents worth" occasionally! -tisha | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2006 |
now unless you folks get to thinking that I think intercessory prayer is the only thing we should be doing, I don,t. Colleen is right, we should speak the truth even though it causes anger at times. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2006 |
Walk said "We cannot apply one standard to the writings of Ellen White and another to the Bible". Question: Can we hold one standard to Joseph Smith and another to the Bible? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2006 |
A matter of time Joey, as usual was a good Sunday school kid, on Sunday morning the Sunday school teacher ask the class ìWho wants to go to heaven, hold up their handsî all hand shot up except Joeys, the teacher ask Joey ìJoey, donít you want to go to heaven when you die? ìSure I doî said Joey ìI thought you were getting up a load to go now!î We will find out whether or not we can trust the Bible, it is only a matter of time. I sincerely hope I have more time to trust in his precious word more and more and to study and understand it better, most of us open our Bibles with complete trust that we have not been mislead, we donít go search for transcription errors but look to the word for comfort, guidance, pure doctrine. I donít imagine I will be comparing it to any other writing any way soon. Neither will I go running to see what so and so said about it, I got Jesus and thatís enough. River | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 303 Registered: 4-2006  |
"Every man, that means you and me, what are these ìworksî? it is not working to save ourselves, he came to do that job, it is working and laboring with him in his Kingdom" River I don't believe that it is speaking of works, rather the substitution of our lives with the life of Christ. Learn more about that here: http://supergoodnews.blogspot.com/2006/08/matthew-1627-rewarded-according-to.html But I agree on you that we are on Gods side now, fighting the good fight with him against the evil spiritual powers headed by the Devil. In Christ | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 148 Registered: 8-2006 |
Well, that serves me right for trying to get a post right before running out the door to a surprise party! Here is what I meant to say - Walk said "We cannot apply one standard to the writings of Ellen White and another to the Bible". I absolutely CAN and I absolutely WILL apply a different standard to the writings of Ellen White than I do to the Bible. We are not talking "apples and apples" here but "apples and oranges". Two different things, and no need to apply the same standard. The Bible is GOD'S HOLY WORD, and Ellen White's writings are just that...her writings (or her plagiarizings). You believe she is inspired in the same way as the Bible is, we don't. Ellen White will never be held to the standard the Bible is because they have nothing in common with each other. (now I think that made much more sense) Susan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3044 Registered: 3-2004 |
Susan, You said it perfectly. "I absolutely CAN and I absolutely WILL apply a different standard to the writings of Ellen White than I do to the Bible. We are not talking "apples and apples" here but "apples and oranges". Two different things, and no need to apply the same standard. The Bible is GOD'S HOLY WORD, and Ellen White's writings are just that...her writings (or her plagiarizings). You believe she is inspired in the same way as the Bible is, we don't. Ellen White will never be held to the standard the Bible is because they have nothing in common with each other." I agree whole heartedly. The Bible is way above EGW that there is no touching in any way. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4959 Registered: 12-2003  |
Well said, Susan! Rick, I agree with you that conditionalism is not a mountain to die on with Adventists. I do believe that the doctrine of the human spirit is a core fallacy of Adventism, but Adventists need to know Jesus and experience the true gospel before they can sort through the whole "state of the dead" thing. Walk, again I'll say that trivial erros traceable to copyists and reporting differences do not affect inerrancy. The books Stan mentioned are good. I believe you know that we're not criticizing Ellen for mistakes of number or trivial observations. Our problem with Ellen White is that she did not teach the Jesus of the Bible. She did not teach the finished atonement of Jesus óin spite of some passages copied from Christian authors that state our salvation is secure. Ellen contradicted herself in core matters of truth and reality, or the identity of God and Jesus and the nature of salvation and the nature of sin and man. The Bible makes no such mistakes or contradictions. It's disingenuous to compare trivial discrepancies that have no effect on truth or eternal reality with Ellen's contradictions and claims that impugned the integrity of God and His sovereign provision and control and salvation. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2006 |
Mwh, I was referring to working in Gods Kingdom in a labor of love alongside the Lord, not for special rewards, but because we love Christ, I might have picked a better scripture but I still go with what the principal is. in Christ. River | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2289 Registered: 3-2005 |
Speaking of the Investigative Judgment, I ran across an interesting quote from Phil Johnson, associate pastor to John MacArthur at this link: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/11/why-lordship-debate-died.html#links The Lordship vs No-Lordship debate will not die as this debate has been raging for awhile. Today, on his blog, Phil Johnson actually compared the No-Lordship heresy to the SDAs doctrine of the IJ: "For more than a decade following the book's initial release, I replied to every letter sent to our ministry regarding The Gospel According to Jesus and the lordship debate. There were literally hundreds of letters on the issue, and with no more than three or four notable exceptions, every bit of interaction I ever had with hardcore no-lordship advocates was equally fruitless." "That's why I have been less than responsive to the spam and goading that appears from time to time in the comments here on the blog. Frankly, I think the GES version of no-lordship doctrine is as outlandish as some of the distinctive doctrines of the major cults. And given the obvious lack of seriousness in the commenters here who have advocated those doctrines, I'm no more inclined to devote multiple posts to the subject at PyroManiacs than I would be to discuss the Seventh-Day Adventists' doctrine of "investigative judgment." ------------------------------------------------- So, the cultic doctrine of SDA is being compared to the Grace Evangelical Society's position of No-Lordship (or no commitment)--interesting... Stan |
