Post Number: 338
|Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:21 pm: || |
I found this discussion interesting: http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=1309.0 titled "Is it the word of the thoughts that are inspired?"
One Adventist on there said that the "lesser" light of EGW was not because she was less inspired, but because she was not the first to be inspired.
As former Adventists I'm sure we know many of the code words for EGW like "my favorite author". It struck me that one word people use quite often to refer to EGW is "inspiration".
Post Number: 129
|Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:13 pm: || |
Aargh u2, those people really eat this stuff up don't they? That was like sticking my head in a sewer but thanks for the link anyway.
It was coming upon people whiffing a stinking corpse and saying Ahhhh.!!
Post Number: 10
|Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:31 pm: || |
I know it sounds a might glib, but when anyone asks me about Ellen White, I simply state "all I know about Ellen White is that she's dead". Then I direct my attention to the Bible and real life experiences with God.
Post Number: 4964
|Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:49 pm: || |
I love it, Stevendi!
Post Number: 3051
|Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:26 pm: || |
I am going to use your words next time some one asks me about EGW, Stevendi. I like them, a lot.
River, I sat here laughing at your comments about the RS site. I go there every once in a while and know exactly what you are saying.
Thank God, we are not in that same spot any more. Jesus moved us into his sheep fold and I am so thankful. Jesus, you are so awesome.
Post Number: 33
|Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 7:14 pm: || |
I wonder if the words or thoughts were inspired when Paul said: "for you are not under law but under grace." Well...anyway, glad he said them.
Post Number: 130
|Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 7:38 pm: || |
Aye Sir Forrester, old Paul was probably jumping up and shouting Hallelujah between each word, it's a wonder he got it all down.I second that emotion.
Post Number: 39
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 1:03 am: || |
So well stated, River---my sentiments exactly!
Thanks a bunch for the accurate description of that web-site.
Post Number: 109
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 2:21 am: || |
speaking of "those folks" at revivalsermons,cant they move on to something joyful,I picture them all as sour faces,their thinking on such subjects like you cant go bowling,or you shouldnt laugh from the oulite or you souldnt be baptized until you know every doctrine,
I was at a SDA brithday party for my grandpa one Sabbath and I was asked why I didnt go to church anymore,I said I do but not the SDA church this couple I could see it in their eyes they felt sorry for me,I simply told them I dont beleive in EGW and could never beleive in her that she was a false prophet,the husband wanted to know what I've been reading or what internet sites I got my info on,because he said it was taken out of context,I think someone here said to ask them to put it in context then for me" wish I was thinking more quicker,then they though that maybe somoen from the conference could come answer my questions because the SDA have the truth and I said you know the mormons say the same thing,so I have been debating on weather to send them the book about that I got from LAM on the cultic teaching of SDA and EGW? what do you all think?
Post Number: 309
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 3:59 am: || |
If they are open you can invite them to a bible study group or to a church. A good thing would be to hook them up with more Christians.
The veil they carry are very though and can take years to break, so first of all its a spiritual battle and you should probably pray and pray and have more Christians to pray for them. I generally find that the attitude of SDA's toward books from LAM that they believe that the books simply aren't true, because they speak against the real SDA "truth".
When the veil is broken the books are really useful I think, also the books are great for Christians that does not know about the cultic teaching of SDA.
Father in heaven I pray for the SDA's that Dawn knows, please lift their veils and let them see you in all your glory, set them free and save them. Strengthen Dawn, give him wisdom and knowledge on how to proceed, give him the words to speak to them when he is by their side, your will be done in this matter. Amen.
Post Number: 142
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 5:40 am: || |
Dawn, Good point. I can't tell you how many times friends and family have told me, "My pastor can explain it to you." or "We have an evangelist in town that can explain it to you." It gets really frustrating because in essence they are admitting that they cannot explain their own belief system, they just know it's right.. for some reason that someone else can explain.
As far as the book goes, I think I would use 'White out' by Dirk Anderson. Cultic Doctrine is a very awesome book and every former should have it as well as "Sabbath in Christ" (they are worth having on the shelf just for the references in the back) I say that because if your friends are not already doubting or questioning their doctrine, the cover and suggestion 'cult' will scare them off and they probably wouldn't even open it.
White Washed is a jewel as well. Sydney Cleveland even put several pictures in there to demonstrate some of the deception used by the SDA conference.
I just wish they hadn't put Dale Ratzlaff's name on the covers. Saying Dale Ratzlaff to an SDA is like saying saying Martin Luther to a die hard Catholic...
Post Number: 12
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 6:42 am: || |
Wolfgang, how about another glib quote? When sda's ask me what I've been reading that caused me to "deny" egw, I say "the Bible". They ask what I mean, and I tell them that "what she said that led to the founding of the unique sda doctrines - it's just not in there (the Bible).
Rule of engagement: Whenever anyone puts your beliefs on the block, it is their responsibility to clearly state and defend their position first. Then you know what's behind their challenge and it's weaknesses. EGW is indefensible 'sola scriptura'.
Post Number: 694
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:16 am: || |
I love that one! It was the Bible for me too. When I studied Tithe from the Bible, for example, it just didn't come anywhere near what SDAism teaches.
Post Number: 34
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:43 am: || |
Stevendi: right on the money. Since Adventists are relatively new on the scene the burden of proof is on them to establish their doctrines clearly and concisely from the common, authoritative source. In our case this is the protestant Bible. However, if I say that Adventists are wrong about, say, their Sanctuary doctrine, then the burden of proof is on me (and we're delighted to prove it). Of course, that means actually teaching the Adventist first what they believe...but that's another story.
Dawn: Don't feel bad about being "quicker" - quick generally doesn't do it as Mwh points out. Ravi Zacharias, who is as competent a debater and evangelist as one can be, tells the story of his Hindu Uncle. I forget the actual number of years, but it was something like 14 years before he finally came to Christ.
We have a friend who is married to a Muslim; she wants him converted and now, and is upset with God for not working faster. These things take time, and often people never turn in their thinking. Love, patience, prayer and persistence.
There is something that an Adventist elder told a friend of mine when he left (he was also an elder and SS teacher): "You will be out of church and not believe in God within 3 years". My friend, who is quick, said, "That's fine. And if not you'll agree to come visit my church then, ok?" That was about 3 years ago - i must check in to see if the invitation has been renewed
Some people will need to watch you over a long period of time, and when you become more Christ-like, more evangelistic, and are still going to church and not philandering around -- that defies Adventist logic.
Post Number: 310
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 10:05 am: || |
"Love, patience, prayer and persistence." Cforrester
Those words touched me in a profound way, they really summaries the spirit of reaching out to those who are not in Christ.
Jesus you are awesome!
Post Number: 110
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 12:31 pm: || |
hey thanks all your encouragemnet and advice and prayers are always invauluable to me,and your right if i were to give them a book that had the words cult on it .it would be received in defense. thanks gang,dawn
Post Number: 4968
|Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 9:08 pm: || |
Dawn, if they're open to reading something, I recommend Greg Taylor's book, "Discovering the New Covenant". It is his story, and it's written with great compassion and honesty. He goes through his own struggle with the Sabbath and with Ellen White and shares the Bible study he pursued in order to find answers.
I think Greg's book is an awesome "first introduction" to the problems of Adventism. It's an easy read and relatively shortóbut profoundly moving.
Post Number: 612
|Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:55 am: || |
Colleen I agree with your recommendation of Greg Taylors book. It was the first one that I read. In fact I sent an email to Greg last week, telling him how important his book had been.
Post Number: 134
|Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 6:24 am: || |
What continues to amaze me about these people is that they seem so much like a robot, having messed around a little with robotics back in the 80ís, the one thing about a robot such as the ones use by GM to spot weld, they do it fairly well but all they are capable of doing is what they are programmed to do. There may be many of the modern day robots in a factory all working in tandem doing the job they were programmed to do. I remember in the early days we had high hopes of creating generalized robots but that idea was quickly abandoned in favor of the more simple robot which can easily be built and programmed to do a specific task.
These folk seemed to be programmed and cannot seem to operate outside of that programming, that programming seems to exist of specific scriptures and ideas, if ask specific questions they quickly look up previous instruction.
This is referred to in the computer world as a lookup table; your modern day computerized vehicle operates on that same principle. Information is constantly sent from sensors located throughout the vehicle and we have a pass/fail condition. Then we have programmed into the computer what is called the limp mode, that is to prevent the vehicle from stopping suddenly and other conditions which might leave us stranded or create a dangerous condition on the highways.
It does seem that the average Adventist, if pinned down, goes into limp mode if he sees a condition not present in his lookup table.
Now I realize that all this is an over simplification of this condition and cannot be applied, humanity is not an experiment in robotics, however, I am learning to expect a standard reaction in my association with these people.
It seems to me a preprogrammed mental condition does exist.
Now if this thesis were submitted in ìApplied Psychology 101î I would receive a failing grade which would not surprise me in the least, since I dropped out of Applied Psychology in favor of pastures that looked greener and more lucrative.
Back in my day we were assigned courses on a first come first served basis so in order to assure ourselves that we would not come up short on credits at the end of semester we would use the old trick of taking on extra classes and drop the ones we didnít want, my goal was to carry 14 credits per semester.
I remember those days when my total days were taken up in cramming, I would go to sleep at 11:00 pm with a thick book on my chest, now it seems it has come full circle and my days are again taken up in cramming.
Post Number: 87
|Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 6:37 am: || |
Yep, River, you've got it. Programming = a type of brainwashing, if I may be so bold. There must be a miniscule percentage of SDAs who can truly explain a convoluted doctrine such as the IJ, even among those who have sat through many, many "evangelistic" series.
Post Number: 4973
|Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:51 am: || |
River, your analogy is actually really good. As Aliza says, "programming=a type of brainwashing." I know the word "brainwashing" triggers a lot of negative reactions, but in reality Adventism does use this technique very effectively.
For example, from the time a baby is born, he is taught Adventist versions of good behavior and Bible stories in Sabbath School. Children are also expected to sit quietly through "big church". Ideally he is educated in Adventist schools where Bible class is filled with stories of Adventist pioneers and missionaries, Adventist charities, Ellen, etc. (Today the curriculum is including much more of these stories at lower gradce levels than it did when our sons were in elementary school. The past few years has seen an increasing focus on Adventist culture and history in lower elementary Bible curriculae.)
An Adventist child learns from birth that he is a member of a special groupówhether or not his parents actually use the word "remnant". They are the only people who obey the WHOLE Bible. They hopefully attend SDA academies and colleges, marry in the church, and even work for the church.
Brainwashing and enculturating really describe what happens to an Adventist. And you're right, Riverómost of them really do have certain default modes to which they resort when they encounter something they're not taught to answer. That's why the church keeps devising new methods to "answer the critics" of Adventism.
Post Number: 343
|Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:17 pm: || |
Colleen said :"Brainwashing and enculturating really describe what happens to an Adventist."
I so agree Colleen. A person can grow up Adventist and live to a ripe old age and barely encounter any non-Adventists.
When I first started voicing my concerns about Adventism to an Adventist pastor he expressed concern that it was due to me attending a non-sda school.
Adventism is designed to keep a person close - to keep them in a place where the status quo is Adventism.
Post Number: 111
|Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 9:20 pm: || |
Not only are they robotic,but they can't seem to function out of the leaglistic comfort zone,I cant beleive I wasted my time within the walls of SDA for such a long time,
Post Number: 139
|Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 7:25 am: || |
Well now, do forgive me for taking a hilarious tact at this thing.
Sensors = young children + old teachers ñ common sense.
Look-up table= General Adventist theology.
Limp mode = EGW.
Now if we extracted the limp mode commands from the look-up table we would hear tires screeching, rubber burning, kerchunks and sizzles and the whole freeway would be clogged with disabled robots.
It would be funny if it werenít so sad. Now I have just got to put my long face back on and get serious again. Qwit horsing around River.