| Author | Message | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 124 Registered: 9-2006 |
Timmy, I must say I take issue with this. You said, "as Bill so clearly pointed out, you can find words that speak from either side of the fence. I think he said, "...she talked out of both sides of her mouth about that and a whole lot of other things..." WOW Response: I differ with you on that. I do not see where Lone has "clearly pointed out" that she spoke from both side of her mouth. He used a couple quotes, taken out of context entirely. Until we look at those quotes, and others, in context, we lack any basis for any sort of conclusion on this. WalkOnWater TenBLo˙@hotmail.com | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 210 Registered: 3-2005 |
Walk, Have you read the 27/28 Fundamental beliefs of the SDA's? I don't have them memorized, but one of them says something about EGW being the ongoing authoritive source of truth for the SDA church. I'm sure someone here can point you to which one. That is the OFFICIAL SDA position on EGW. It is a required belief - even though many members say they don't hold to that! From my own experience, even though I did NOT believe EGW was a prophet, I didn't realize how much she influenced everything the SDA's teach. And my own belief system was tied up in all of that as well. Without going into every detail, I must say that the bottom line of their doctrine is that SDA's have NO ASSURANCE of Salvation (as a expressly pointed out by EGW herself!). No matter what any individual SDA may say, they do believe in EGW if they believe the SDA's doctrine. And the denomination itself DOES hold EGW equal to the Bible and are proud to say it. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 539 Registered: 10-2002  |
Wow, this really is a whole 'nuther topic, and an interesting one, too. On a side note, I wonder if WalkOnWater is aware of the changing of the wording in the Fundamental Beliefs in 1980? Anyhow, if someone can open up a new thread about this, it might be very good. I don't know what to call it, though...? ***** Coming back to the questions... I would like to submit "Question 4-B" -- 4-B) Did Christ keep the Old Covenant? Does that mean we should, too? (Galatians 4, Luke 2, Luke 22, see also texts for Question #3) Blessings in Christ, Ramone | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 541 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ah! No sooner had I posted that I didn't know what to call the new thread, than I thought of a title! Anyway, here's the link! http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/4914.html?1163475297#POST64357 I added a primer that should help get things rolling. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 127 Registered: 9-2006 |
Tisha: What is most important to me is not what the SDA Church says about Ellen White. Instead I am most interested in what EGW White said. Here is another statement: "When God's Word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. THE BIBLE, AND THE BIBLE ALONE, IS TO BE OUR CREED, THE SOLE BOND OF UNION; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. MAN IS FALLIBLE, BUT GOD'S WORD IS INFALLIBLE. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, THE BIBLE IS OUR RULE OF FAITH AND DISCIPLINE."-- Ellen G. White, The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1885 (Emphasis supplied) WalkOnWater TenBLo0@hotmail.com | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 332 Registered: 11-2004 |
WOW quoted "BUT GOD'S WORD IS INFALLIBLE" Does this mean EGW believes the Bible is free from errors? | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2005 |
WOW, EGW contradicted herself many times. There are many instances where she put her writings on par, or even above, the Bible as noted in other posts. Whether or not YOU believe EGW did this, you do admit that the SDA denomination does this. So, why be an SDA then? They are perpetuating gross error, being deceitful, and putting EGW above the Bible. Doesn't this make even less sense if they hold EGW as a prophet and then disregard her warnings (albeit contradicting herself) about not placing her writings above the Bible? Of course, if they don't hold EGW's writing at least as authoritive as the Bible they would be ingnoring EGW also! It's a no-win situation for them! No matter how you look at it, it just doesn't make any sense. I will continue any discussion about this on the new thread devoted to this subject, and let this thread go on with the 5 questions. -tisha | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 633 Registered: 7-2004  |
No, this is where you will hear SDAs turn to the distinction between infallible and inerrant. Infallible is used, not just by SDAs, to indicate that the Bible is true in regards to matters of faith and practice, but may have errors in science, history, or anything else. Inerrancy is the higher standard that Scripture is without error. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2006 |
Tisha: I hear charge after charge unsupported by evidence. I fear we are vering off into a Jerry Springer mud ball contest. I'm not here to prove Ellen White right or wrong or the Adventist Church right or wrong. I am here to understand the truth of these matters but with all due respect, you are not helping me very much. Anyone can make strong charges. But charges are not truth. WalkOnWater Tenblo0@hotmail.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3022 Registered: 3-2004  |
Remember Walk, the majority of us who write here have left the SDA church for our various reasons. My leaving started with hearing only EGW quoted in a sermon. I got up and walked out of the church. It was a number of years later I found out about EGW and her plagiarism and having others write for her. That is not being inspired by God. You say we are "veering off into a Jerry Springer mud ball contest." You can think that way if you want, but remember, we are former seventh day adventist who left the church over doctrine and EGW influenced all the doctrine of that church. Do you think we should say nothing about our former beliefs??? Here you come to find out what, I am not sure, and say you are writing a book. You could have found out why we left by reading our testimonies in the links. You do not like it when we criticize EGW. What do you expect from us, seeing as we left the SDA church over doctrine?? You do not have to be here to find out about the truth of EGW or as you said "to understand the truth of these matters". You can study it for your self. How do you expect us to help you if you do not like what we say?? We do not believe EGW and we say so and give examples why. I truly feel sorry for you that you cannot accept that. Remember, most of us were raised in SDA schools and in the SDA church, with a very good background in what EGW wrote. Some of us are former SDA ministers, so those that are really know what they are talking about. Each of us have given up EGW for a very good reason. She is a false prophet. So, why are you here if you cannot listen to/hear what we say?? Diana | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 834 Registered: 1-2003 |
There is a new SDA who defends Ellen over on CARM...he posted that Ellen White died poor- 90K in debt, and her only motivation was to preach Christ. How on earth did a simple woman die 90K in debt in the early 1900's? That is like dying a couple of million in debt today! And he says she wasn't living a rich lifestyle? She must have went through all her profits and then borrowed! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 312 Registered: 6-2006  |
Oh brother. Walk, you said you wanted to know what Former Adventists believe. When we asked you what you believe you said "This is your forum, not mine". Lately all I read from you are doctrines that everyone here have given up, accusations and snide references (Who the heck is "Mr. Hyde"?) With all due respect, it really seems is if you're in here just to argue. Diana is absolutely right, this is a *former* Adventist forum. You should know when you bring up EGW that this group regards her as a false prophet, period. That doesn't mean that they accept some of her writings, it means that they've thrown out ALL of her writings. When you ask questions here, please remember that. I feel silly even having to mention this. Please do not reply to this post. I'm sure Ramone would like to continue on with the 5 questions. As the others have stated, I'll pray for your veil to be lifted. Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3025 Registered: 3-2004 |
And Walk, do not answer my post. Those questions were meant to be rhetorical and something for you to think about. Just answer the questions Ramone asked. I, too, will pray that your veil be lifted. Diana | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 132 Registered: 9-2006 |
Leigh Anne says I am only here to argue. No, I am here to understand if what you are saying is true or not. If I conclude that what Former Adventists beleive is wrong, than that is what I will say in the book and tell the reasons why I beleive them to be wrong. If I decide you are right, I will say that in the book. If the truth lies somewhere in the middle, I will say that and tell why. The problem comes when people throw acusations and charges around but do not support them. Anyone can do that. I can call the FBI and say President Bush stole 16 billion dollars and hid it in a Swiss bank account. But unless I have some proof, they will figure I am nuts. Ramone has taken an approach which is constructive. At least we are discussing truth instead of throwing charges. WalkOnWater tenblo0@hotmail.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3026 Registered: 3-2004 |
Walk, You did not have to come here to find out if we are telling the truth. You can find out for yourself by studying the Bible. A suggestion and this is only if you want to try it. First ask God to show you what He knows to be the truth. Ask God to send the Holy Spirit to teach you. Start reading the NT, with no EGW, nothing from us formers and nothing Adventist to go along with it. Just the Bible. Start with the Gospel of John, then read the other gospels. Go to Hebrews, then Galatians then the Acts, Romans and the rest of the NT. Each of us came to our conclusions individually. We studied the Bible and only the Bible. For myself I started reading the NT. I also bought a Strongs Bible Concordance and looked up key words of SDA doctrine and read every text and its surrounding verses for context. We can tell you how we did it, but until you read and study for yourself without the aide of EGW, you will not understand what we went through to get where we are. Walk, you want to know why we are formers, so instead of leveling charges at us, just listen as we tell you why. You may not like what you hear, but we will tell you the truth. Ask what ever questions you want, but be prepared for the answers. I do continue to pray that God will lift the veil from you. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 550 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dear WalkOnWater, I know it's difficult to hear other people apparently blasting something/someone that you don't believe is blast-worthy. I know the same feeling. However, the ladies have made important points, particularly that we (here at FAFF) are Formers, and we have been through a lot of these things before. There are other ways to conduct research other than argument. "Interview", for example. Reading testimonies is also especially helpful. Please try to understand that the substance of the EGW quotes we've seen so far are sufficient enough to convince us of what we believe. You've charged that another set of quotes (pro-Scripture) should be the meter by which the others are judged. I've opened a new thread for such a discussion, which so far you haven't joined. Instead, you've talked about false charges and charges unsupported by evidence. Brother, I have opened a thread for you to examine the evidence with us! (I sincerely apologize if the title of the thread is offensive). What good is it to merely say that the charges are "false" when people are actively examining the charges? By all means, please join us in that thread and show us how the context of Ellen's writings proves the charges false! ***** I fear that by starting that thread (and by saying what I have above) that I have defeated my own effort to have a simple question-and-answer study. However, if you're interested in continuing, please let me know. I added a tag-on to the fourth question above, which I hope was okay to do. Blessings in Christ's love, Ramone | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 136 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone: Sorry for the long delay in answering your questions. The first three questions were easy. The next ones are more difficult and have been batted around for centuries and people have disagreed on the answers for a very long time. I understand Benjiman Franklin even got involved in arguing the Sabbath/Sunday question. I have told you I do not want to use Ellen White or Adventist literature in my responses and I am holding to that. It would be convenient to simply parrot the SDA Bible commentary but I refuse to do that. I am seekng the Lord and reading the Bible to find the answers. In fact, last night I feel God gave me some new insights into this subject. It will take a while to get it written up and posted. Thanks again for your patience. WalkOnWater Tenblo0@hotmail.com | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2006 |
Walk, I know your post was specifically directed at Ramone but I did want to say thanks for letting everyone know, and you are right in that it takes time to seek the Lord and search the Scriptures for answers to difficult questions. You have my prayers as you study and listen to the Lord. Susan | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2006  |
Walkonwater, Welcome back, it got kind of quite with no one arround here to stir the pot.  | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 561 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks, Walk. Welcome back. I hope your land deal went okay. |
