| Author | Message | ||
| Trying Registered user Username: Trying Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2006 |
I just came across this passage and it jumped out at me. Is this where sda's get annihilation? That the same condemnation to ashes will happen to them? | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 172 Registered: 8-2006 |
Welcome to the board, Trying and may God bless you as you post here! I am about to walk out the door for Thanksgiving trip, but I'm sure people will be along soon to answer your question. Have a wonderful holiday. Blessings, Susan | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2006 |
Welcome, Trying! Others can answer this better than I can. Happy Thanksgivng~ Cathy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2319 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Trying to FAF! You happened to touch on a topic that I am researching at length right now: 6"if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:6 ESV) Apparently that greek word translated extinction is not used often in the NT, and may be the only place it is used. The ESV translators, who are considered some of the best, as this Bible is exploding in popularity among conservative Reformed Christians. But, if extinction is the correct translation, then, I don't know how those who teach eternal conscious torment for all the endless ages of eternity can outright ignore this text. The truth of the matter is that those who espouse the traditional view don't seem to deal with this text or the following text in Malachi: 1[a] "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts. (Mal 4:1-3 ESV) The phrases reduced to ashes is used both in Malachi and 2 Peter 2. This is enough evidence for me to change my position back to one of annihilation, as I had not really studied the evidence clearly before. But "ashes", destroyed both "root and branch", "Sodom and Gomorrah", "extinction"--I can't fight these strong words. So, I am forced to interpret less clear passages in light of these clear passages in Malachi and 2 Peter, and I couple this with what I know from studying the mercy and justice of God in the whole 66 books. I have now read all the pertinent portions in Robert Morey's "Death and the Afterlife", and this book was recommended to me as being the final word to destroy all of Edward Fudge and Leroy Froom's arguments. Well, get this, Robert Morey deals with 2 Peter 2:4, and 2 Peter 2:9 in a section labeled as a heading "2 Peter", but he totally IGNORES 2 Peter 2:6!! Hmmm... This really puts to rest all of the arguments of the annihilationists. Also, he quotes from other parts of Malachi, but ignores the strongest text in the entire Bible for annihilation from Malachi 4--and these are the texts the SDAs use the most, and it is SDAs who he criticizes as much as any other. Was this just an oversight? It speaks volumes to me that others who have written books on eternal torture also ignore the above texts. Edward Fudge spends several hundred pages going over all the bible evidence, at least dealing with the difficult ones in Matthew and Revelation. I don't always agree that he has an adequate explanation, but his book "Fire that Consumes" is really a great book, and you can tell it is written by a man who clearly has a wonderful heart for God, and the spirit of humility that accompanies his writing vs. the arrogant "know-it-all" spirit and attitude that accompanies most of those who write books on the traditional view. However, both books are must reading, as I have gained valuable insight from both Morey and Fudge. Morey even admits that this topic shoudn't separate us from fellowship, and even admits to having fellowship with SDAs who are indeed Christians. There has hardly been a more rewarding experience so far in studying the evidence on this, and I have only just begun as I have a lot more to learn. I am of the mind, that this one doctrine of eternal torment may be a holdover from Roman Caholicism, Paganism, and the overpowering influence of a man I greatly admire--John Calvin--, but I believe him to be wrong on this doctrine. I am still open to evidence, however, and that is why I am going to keep up my research on this. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4989 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hi, TryingóWelcome to the forum! We're glad you're here. 2 Peter 2:6 is one of the passages that Adventists use to support annihilation, but their belief in annihilation is closely rooted to their belief that a human has no spirit except breath. Certainly, however, the references to Sodom and Gomorrah are part of their defense of annihilation. The Adventist argument in favor of annihilation, however, does not take other texts into account, for example, Jesus' words regarding eternal punishment. For one thing, the example of Sodom and Gomorrah occurred within time and in three dimensions to unresurrected people, and it was only the first death. Their example cannot be an exact picture of the final punishment. It is adequate, however, to demonstrate that the final destruction of the wicked will be total. "Destruction", however, especially when examining the underlying Greek verb, does not have to mean that nothing is left. It can mean that something is no longer able to serve its intended function. "Death" does not necessarily mean "non-existence"; it means the person's spirit is separated from Life. Interestingly, the ESV is the only translation that uses the term "extinction" in this passage. "Destruction" is used in others. Perhaps most importantly, the Adventist arguments do not account for the Biblical information about the human spirit and what happens to it. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2320 Registered: 3-2005 |
There is going to be disagreement among us on this one, but the argument I am making is not just an SDA argument. In fact, the Reformed annihilationists, John Stott and Philip Hughes do teach the doctrine of the human spirit, and the intermediate state, but just the eventual annihilation of the wicked. It is too simplistic to just blame this one on SDAs, as there are more and more highly respected conservative theologians who have held the annihilationist position. The great exegete F.F. Bruce wrote the forward to Fudge's book, and one of the finest Reformed Greek scholars John Wenham has also seen validity in annihilation. It is the fact that this is not just an SDA doctrine, and held by other respectable Reformed theologians, that led me to re-think this doctrine. I still affirm the doctrine of the human spirit as Colleen's article in Proclamation states, but we will just have to agree to disagree on eternal torment. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3061 Registered: 3-2004  |
Trying, Welcome to FAF. Let us know more about yourself when you are ready. Hope your Thanksgiving is a thankful, God filled day. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 144 Registered: 9-2006  |
Stan, You might consider me just a little old fashioned, but what do you do with text like this? (Mark 9:43 KJV) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mark 9:44 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:45 KJV) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mark 9:46 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:47 KJV) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (Mark 9:48 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Apparently Jesus believed in hell fire preaching, at least it sure would appear so to me. Now all the fellows you keep mentioning in these here books, Iím Sure they are educated and Iím not too good at getting around in greek and stuff but here it says ìinto the fire that never shall be quenched: just sounds to my simple mind that the fires of hell will not go out. Seems to me that there would not be much point in keeping a fire going like that after there is nothing left to burn. And what about this ìtheir worm dieth notî thing? Now it seems to me Jesus is giving fair warning to all here, if I was a sinner and I was warned that I was going to be annihilated Iíd say have at it then, what I have seen on this earth hasnít given me much to look forward too. As you said, there is going to be theological disagreement and whatís nice about this forum is because though we may disagree we donít go off and eat worms. Believe me I sympathize with you in your search for truth; I just do not see how the annihilationist gets around these text and more like them. One of my theology instructors said this ìthe thought of eternal torment really bothers me, I think of just the people I know and it overwhelms me yet I cannot get around what the Bible seems to teachî and I totally agree with him, I have a Son who is alcoholic, also my younger brother and to my knowledge has not repented, friends, relatives, neighbors and Iím not comforted by the thought. So its not a point of refusing to see it as you see it. River | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2322 Registered: 3-2005 |
River, I am not saying there are not difficult texts on both sides of this issue. I have posted extensively on this topic within the last two months. So far, no one who teaches the traditional view can give me an adequate answer on Malachi 4:1-3 or 2 Peter 2:6, and I am disappointed because I thought Morey's book would deal squarely with these texts, and instead skipped around them conveniently. It is not enough to say that only the ESV mistranslates this text. That is the key issue. Those who actually translate the Bible into English from other languages such as William Tyndale (burned at the stake by the Catholics) and R.F. Weymouth: R. F. Weymouth, who translated the New Testament into English (first published in 1903) directly from the Greek, after many years of intensive study of textual criticism, wrote: "My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language than when the five or six strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying ëdestroyí, or ídestructioní, are explained to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this." ------------------------------------------------- The traditionalists spend all this time saying that the plain meaning of death and destruction don't really mean death. As to Mark 9:48 where it talks about fire and worms. Jesus is referring to Isaiah 66:24: "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." This is talking about dead bodies. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by unquenchable fire of judgment. The fire ends with smoke ascending above the plain, when it completed it's work of judgment. It is a fact that those today who do believe in eternal torment do not believe the fire to be literal. Now, where do they get their scriptural authority to say that it is not literal smoke and fire tormenting sinners for eternity? Didn't Jesus say the fire was literal? Here is a part of a sermon from Jonathan Edwards: To help your conception, imagine yourself to be cast into a fiery oven, all of a glowing heat, or into the midst of a glowing brick-kiln, or of a great furnace, where your pain would be as much greater than that occasioned by accidentally touching a coal of fire, as the heat is greater. Imagine also that you body were to lie there for a quarter of an hour, full of fire, as full within and without as a bright coal of fire, all the while full of quick sense; what horror would you feel at the entrance of such a furnace! And how long would that quarter of an hour seem to you! . . . And how much greater would be the effect, if you knew you must endure it for a whole year, and how vastly greater still, if you knew you must endure it for a thousand years! O then, how would your heart sink, if you thought, if you knew, that you must bear it forever and ever! . . . That after millions of millions of ages, your torment would be no nearer to an end, than ever it was; and that you never, never should be delivered! But your torment in Hell will be immeasurably greater than this illustration represents. How then will the heart of a poor creature sink under it! How utterly inexpressible and inconceivable must the sinking of the soul be in such a case." ------------------------------------------------- I don't think anyone in their heart of hearts believes for a minute that scenario painted by Edwards, but he only got this picture from literally interpreting the statements of Jesus. The reason in this modern day, very few people take the fire to be literal is, that very few people can conceive of a God who would literally burn the flesh of those he created and rebelled against for all eternity. So now hell is reduced to language like "eternal separation from God". The truth is, there are a lot of honest conservative preachers who avoid hell because they know it doesn't square with Biblical evidence. One of the accusations leveled against annihilationists is that they don't believe in the wrath or judgment of God. I think the teaching of hell carries a lot more weight if it is taught that God will pour out His wrath with vengeance, and there will be aliteral lake of fire where there will be terrible pain and suffering and exact justice meeted out. If I wer unsaved, that would drive me to repentance because I know how much punishment my sins deserved before Christ took the punishment of the second death for me. Stan | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2006 |
Stan, Pardon me, I did remember you posting about those scripture and I should have looked them up and seen if I could answer them to my own satisfaction. 2 Peter 2:6 is the easy one for me though, in the context of that, what Peter is saying to me is to beware of false prophets and what their end will be. If these false prophets are followed, can lead to destruction for God did not spare others but destroyed their bodies to be reserved for the judgment. God brought Sodomís inhabitants to a sudden end, turning their flesh to ashes to await the Judgment, in verse nine he says again that the ungodly are reserved for judgment, strong warning for those of us who would continue to live ungodly lives, no free rides on sin and ungodly living folks, our only hope is in Christ, yes, for me, to loose Christ after having sought after him, put my hope in him, made him my final and only real prize, counted this world and its pleasures as nothing, to have him look at me and say ìI never knew you, depart from meî would truly be the beginning of my hell, to be forever cut off from the savior I so want and desire his presence even in this life. In view of the above text about false prophets is what brought me to this forum. Now to Malachi 4:1-3. in the beginning of Malachi we see the lords burden for Israel, previous to 4: 1-3 that he talks about folk like the folk of today who says ìit is useless to serve Godî the Lord is talking to the living here, contending with them, in Malachi 3: 13-18 he contrast the ones who say ìit is unprofitable to serve God between the ones who feared the Lord and spoke to one another about the profitability of serving him. In 3:18 (Mal 3:18 KJV) Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. In chapter 4 he is telling his people who fear him, ìlook, it seems like these blokes are better off than you are from the outside but in the end they will be cut off and that without remedy, its no different today, there was a time after the Lord saved me when we went through a period of deep financial poverty, I looked out of that poverty at rich people, the grand homes, automobiles, some of whom I knew were merciless in their quest for even the meager portion we did have. We were poor in the possessions but rich in the blessing of Christ. Now we as Christians know that when death comes to us, we have remedy in Christ our blessed hope, yet the wicked who say ìAh, get away from me you Christian, I am rich and have need of nothing, I am better off than you areî ìWhere is this God of yours, I havenít seen him, we will trample your religion under our feetî ìwe took him out of our schools, we donít want him period, we will not listen to you and your dire warnings, tell us something easy and soothing to our ears or get away from usî. But then one day, heart attack, gunshot, overdose, old age, will surely come knocking and then you my good friend will work feverishly over his broken body to try to save him, glancing up at the monitor and see it flatline, out will come the crash cart but no matter how hard you try the monitor will give off that dreaded constant stream of sound, you will stop, look at the clock and pronounce him dead, no remedy and you can do nothing but go on to the next patient. It could have been me you turned too and said ìRiver, take this body to the morgueî and I slowly trundle him down the hall to the elevator, push the button for the basement floor, alone with the corpse to wonder about his life, no rush, no need to pray for him, he has been cut off and reserved for judgment. Even as I grow fat on the word of God, I slam the door shut on the morgue and look away to the cross and consider him as ashes under my feet the one that would, in life, stand in the way of my goal. And that my dear Christian friend is the message I get from Malachi 4:1-3, I do not see a doctrine of eternal punishment or the conditions of that nor even any indication of what that will be throughout the ages, but rather the condition of one who says ìit is unprofitable to serve Godî. The truth is Stan, I myself just do not have the ability to project what the composition of hell or heaven is, or length of it no matter which text I read, I have tried my best with this in the past but it only left me to wonder. Just yesterday I called my brother long distance and ask him what a couple of verses from Matthew meant to him and we discussed the two text for an hour and a half and at the end of the discussion I had a much clearer picture of the thrust of those two text. Thank God for 3 cents a minute. It is with that attitude that I submit my view of your text to you. Not to try to persuade you of anything but to give you my take. I do this with Bible text often and am thankful for a brother who will give me his take and take the time to do that. Like a jeweler who looks carefully and examines a diamond for flaws I will hand it over to the next jeweler and say ìdo you see a flaw?î and we both turn this priceless jewel we hold up to the light, turn it this way and that. Blessed day to you and yours. And to TRYING also, may God bless you in your studies. River | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 270 Registered: 2-2005 |
Can the just wrath of a holy God ever be satisfied by the incineration of one not "in Christ" whether it be after a week or a thousand years? | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2005  |
River quoted: (Mark 9:43 KJV) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mark 9:44 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:45 KJV) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mark 9:46 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:47 KJV) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (Mark 9:48 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. My response: I personally don't take literally Jesus' recommendation to cut off my hand or foot or pluck out my eye. How can I, then, take literally the words interspersed between these recommendations...the words about "hell fire, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched?" I personally interpret this passage to mean that, no matter how dear to me something or someone may be, I should not hold fast to it or to them, if doing so means I will fail to spend eternity with Christ. It should be as abhorrent to me to cling to anything that separates me from Christ as it would be to exist in a place where worms never die and fire is never quenched. Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 147 Registered: 9-2006 |
Honestwitness, In these passages of scripture John makes the statement that they forbade someone not of their group from casting out demons and Jesus goes on to give them stern warning against interfering or causing someone to stumble, he is using a child as an example, the thrust of his message is causing someone to stumble and bringing rebuke where it is not warranted. I believe Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. He finishes up this stern warning by admonishing the disciples to ìhave peace with one another. Jesus had the wisdom of the father; he knew he didnít have to worry about any of his disciples coming up with cut off limbs by making his statement. It is our evil hearts that causes us to sin, not our hand and Jesus knew this. If it is your hand thatís causing the problem then you would be better to get rid of it, if it is your evil heart thatís causing the problem then repent and turn and your hand will follow. Hell is a dreadful place; would one be willing to spend eternity there in order to hang on to an offending limb for a short season? Most certainly some of us would. Sirs, I think it is a bad mistake to think that Jesus said something that he did not mean, yes he spoke in parables but the parables are clear that they are parables and he clearly told them why he spoke in parables. (Luke 8:10 KJV) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now it is clear Jesus is speaking to John here and perhaps other of his disciples that were present. I never have had my hand just go off on its own and sin, neither my eyes to wander. Now I have a little more control over my eyes than I used to, and I stress, a little more but it was always amazing to me how my wife could be looking straight ahead while we were traveling and a pretty woman would pass and she would reach over and bop me and never take her eyes of the road and she would be perfectly justified in doing so, after getting whacked so many times I would just look out the corner of my eyes but I would still get whacked or pinched. But it was not my eyes she was whacking me for it was my wandering heart, she most definitely stakes her claim and enforces it, can we expect anything less of Jesus? He has wooed us and staked his claim and my Bible tells me he is a jealous God. We must continuously examine our hearts and motives and then our hand will stay where it should stay. I am sure he meant what he said and said what he meant. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 148 Registered: 9-2006 |
Brother, if your hand alls of a sudden gets a mind of itís own you better have an axe handy, that thing is liable to get you into all kinds of trouble, cut the thing off and let it go skittering across the floor on it on. By the way, would you please give me a call and let me know if this happens, I want to get a snapshot. River | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2327 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have been doing more research on 2 Peter 2:6 which is the topic of the thread. I am impressed by several things about this passage. There is a Greek word terphoo which is used for the expression "reducing to ashes", and that is the term Peter uses in describing Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. This word is unique here in NT usage. But I can't escape reading the parallels from Genesis 19 where they were completely reduced to ashes, and in Malachi 4:1-3 where the wicked will be reduced to ashes under our feet when that fire that burns like an oven comes on the day of the Lord. All excuse that this is only Old Testament terminology is taken away by Peter's usage of the Greek word Terphoo which means reduced to ashes. This is an example, according to Peter of what will happen to the ungodly. And BTW, the ESV is not the only version that uses the word extinction. It is also used in the RSV, from which the ESV was inspired. But, the forcefulness of this 2 Peter 2:6 passage must be really huge among those apologists who defend the traditional view, as five different authors who have written definitive books on the doctrine of eternal torment ALL IGNORE this passage of scripture--the five authors who skip this text are Harry Buis, Jon Braun, Donald Bloesch, and RCH Lenski (this is really curious because of his attention to detail) and lastly Robert A. Morey in his book that actuall mentions 2 Peter 2:4,9, but skips verse 6? I have to say that Gen. 19, Malachi 4, and this passage in 2 Peter is enough to convince me of annihilation, but couple this with Matthew 10:28 where Jesus says to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell, and the lack of any specific mention of an eternal burning hell in any of the model sermons preached by either Peter or Paul, and lack of clear teaching in the epistles that clearly outline the doctrine. If you just had Acts and the epistles you would not get a doctrine of eternal torment. Revelation and the synoptics had apocalyptic significance AD 70 as well as the end of time. But since Paul got his teachings directly from Christ while in the Arabian desert, it seems like that the Lord would want Paul to spend a lot of time warning sinners of the terible eternal fires of hell with unending torment, but He didn't do that. With doctrines of salvation by grace alone--these are taught in every section of scripture clearly. So since Matthew and Revelation are open to interpretation by honest Greek scholars on both sides, I choose to stick to the clearest scriptures in Malachi 4 and 2 Peter 2 and interpret other scriptures in light of these clearer scriptures. If the wicked are going to be reduced to ashes, they cannot be suffering eternal conscious torment in an incorruptible body, because the bodily resurrection is true of both the just and unjust. The righteous will put on immortality, and the wicked will be consumed to ashes, but punished very severely in the lake of fire before they are destroyed, and this is the second death. Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth where the former things will pass away. (Rev. 21) Stan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 592 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hey Stan, Something you mentioned ("the righteous will put on immortality") spurred a chain of thought parallel to this... 1 Corinthians 15 says, While the context of this is speaking of the physical body being made new in the likeness of Christ, the principle remains true for everything: what is perishable cannot inherit the imperishable. What is mortal cannot inherit immortality. Besides the text of Matthew 10 which talks of the "soul" being destroyed in hell, there is also John 3:16, where Christ says that God sent Him so that none may "perish". From this it then seems that unless we are born again---born of the Spirit---we will perish. In other words, unless we are born again, we are mortal. "Spirit gives birth to spirit" -- the Holy Spirit gives birth to a new spirit in us, and this spirit is immortal, eternal. This is something that only the redeemed receive. Of course, I know that traditionalists aruge that eternal torment is not a form of immortality (in other words, that "immortality" = "eternal life in paradise" only), but I'll refrain from going too deeply into pro or con for that argument, because it's heavy on semantics & opinion from both sides. Anyway, these are just a few thoughts. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2329 Registered: 3-2005 |
Good points Ramone. The traditionalists like Morey even admit that the eternal punishment that is meted out must be that of body and soul, and not eternal disembodied spirits out in space in outer darkness. So therefore, they have never really answered the annihilationists objection on this point, because where is there any scriptural justification for saying that the second resurrection which occurs after the millenium is a resurrection of the wicked with immortal bodies that are capable of withstanding the fires of hell for all eternity? The first resurrection of which Paul speaks is the one where corruptible puts on incorruptible. It just seems unthinkable that since we know from Matthew 7:13,14 that only a relatively few people will be saved and the majority of the human race will not be regenerated to salvation, that then God will raise these people with indestructible bodies to endure the unspeakable torments of the eternal fire that was so vividly described by Jonathan Edwards in a post above--at least Edwards was taking the words fire literally to mean the infliction of serious third degree burns on humanity for all eternity. Of course Robert Morey has the authority to say that the fire that Jesus spoke of is not literal, and therefore the smoke of their torment which rises forever and ever is not physical torment in flames. That seems to be what has to be concluded in order to take the awful force away from descriptions of hell like Edwards etc., but instead there will be mental distress or something like that. However Revelation 21 clearly says that all liars, murderers etc. will have their part in the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone. And then the second death. So why is that not taken literally. So the annihilationists of evangelical thought at least believe in a literal lake of fire where real terrible punishment and vengeance will be meted out, but we believe for a time that is proportionate to the crimes committed. The vast majority of the lost will likely experience little suffering, but for the very wicked, this judgment will likely be prolonged and severe. Praise God for His mercy and grace, that we can escape the horrible wrath to come by believing the gospel unto salvation. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5003 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, actually it is Revelation 20 where John records the prophecy of the lake of fire, and verse 14 is clear that the lake of fire is not separate from or preceding the second death. "The lake of fire is the second death," it says. Further, Matthew 25: 41-46 records Jesus telling the wicked to depart from him "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." While Revelation 20 does explain that the wicked will be judged according to what they have doneóthus suggesting some degree of consequence much as 1 Cor. 3 suggests degrees of rewards for the faithfulónowhere can I find any hint that "the vast majority of the lost will likely experience little suffering." Again, I'm not saying I KNOW what the second death will look like, but I am concerned that we not come to conclusions the text will not support. Where does the Scripture support the idea that most of the wicked will likely experience little suffering? Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3068 Registered: 3-2004 |
This is an interesting discussion. I am so GLAD that this is not essential to salvation. So I will leave the punishment of the wicked up to God. When Jesus comes again, then I will know for certain what will happen and that satisfies me right now. We do serve a very awesome God. Diana | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 177 Registered: 8-2006 |
Amen, Diana, to the nonessential to salvation aspect of how long hell is. One interesting thing I was listening to on the radio yesterday while driving home was a NPR broadcast called A Modern Heretic, or something to that effect. It was about Bishop Carlton Pearson, who was a Pentecostal preacher who now believes and preaches a "gospel of inclusion" in which there is no hell and everyone will be saved. The most interesting comment I remember was the reporter saying that a disbelief in hell leads those to belief in universal salvation. While we can wonder about the length of hell, I know all agree here that hell is indeed a real place, and that we don't want to be there! I don't know how long hell will last, and I'm not worried about it. God is sovereign, and I trust Him to do what is right with His creation. I do agree with Colleen that we should not come to conclusions that Scripture will not support. And I have thought about the word extinction in this verse. Is it possible that the extinction refers to the actual cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and not to the humans who lived in them? Susan (Message edited by SusanS on November 27, 2006) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 161 Registered: 9-2006 |
What I really canít understand here is why the proponents of Annihilationism work so hard to prove it to themselves. Is it so that they can feel more friendly toward God or have more respect for him? The opponent of annihilationism, at least I think, defends their position, probably out of fear that the sinner wonít be adequately warned and from a true belief that hell is a real place that will not cease and one neednít go there. At least that is why I fiercely appose such thinking and why I will plead with and warn the unconverted using the commandments and Gods justice to plead with them and of Christ cross he bore to save that which is lost. Shall I meet the lost on judgment day and have him look at me with accusation in his eyes and say ìwhy didnít you tell me? ìyou were at my side day after day and you didnít say a thing and you knew all along!!î ì you knew!!î Well, whatever the reason for the annihilationist position, I myself will continue to warn and to plead, I know many will not appreciate it but some will. Some will resent me. I would like to submit some statistics, how accurate they are I do not know but here they are. America has a population of 300 million and approximately 205 million of them do not know Jesus as Savior. America has about 400,000 evangelical churches and half did not record a single convert last year. America is plagued with crime, substance abuse (150,000 die from drug abuse and alcohol abuse every year, an alarming abortion rate (about 1.2 million abortions each year), and a teenage suicide rate that takes about 4000 live each year. 63 % doesnít believe Jesus is the Son of God. 58 % believe all faiths teach equally valid truths. 61 % donít believe Jesus rose from the dead. 65 % donít believe Satan is a real entity. 68 % donít believe the Holy Spirit is a real entity. Over our church door as one exits worship service there hangs a sign. ìThe mission field starts hereî I believe that sign. Some preach hell short and some preach it long, when I get started on the subject of hell and salvation I donít know when to quit. Every time I talk to someone about Christ I am plagued with uncertainty. Did I say too much? Did I say too little? If I preach hell hot and forever to a person I am plagued with uncertainty but not because of my beliefs but rather my desire to see him come to Christ and with doubts of my own ability to communicate. River | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2331 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, Actually I was meaning Revelation 21:1-8: 1"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and DEATH shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." 5And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." ------------------------------------------------- So, if this is the second death, and the verse 4 says that death shall be no more, and several other texts Isaiah 25:8 says death is swallowed up in victory, then I don't see how there is any place left for an eternity where billions of people who are lost are suffering torment(Morey says the word torment in Rev. 14:11 means eternal painful torture) in both body and soul. Robert Morey 's book "Death and the Afterlife" falsely accuses annihilationists as being exactly like the universalists, in that they believe there are no degrees of punishment. For Morey to quote Fudge's book and not even acknowledge that the back cover of the book clearly teaches a definite time of clear conscious torment as determined by the Justice of God is just simply not honest. He doesn't even acknowledge that Froom also taught degrees of punishment. Also where Jesus clearly speaks of degrees of punishment where those who knew his masters will and didn't do it, then they will be beaten by many stripes, and those who were still guilty, but had little or no knowledge, they will be beaten with few stripes. Now, a question, 'if the punishment for all lost sinners is eternal conscious painful torture (using Morey's understanding of the Greek text), then I guess is it just less painful torture for those who have never heard the gospel, even though this less painful torture lasts for eternity? It makes so much more sense from the text to say that the lake of fire described in Rev. 21 above means severe and long time torment that will eventually end in the second death for the especially heinous sinners such as Hitler etc,, but for the billions who will likely be lost because they either heard the gospel as distorted, or never heard the gospel, and were not sovereignly regenerated, then it seems like these folks will only receive light punishment based on the texts of the words of Jesus about the stripes--I will have to find the exact text in Luke, but I know I just read it. So that is the basis for my statement above. But for Morey to so grossly misrepresent the views of Fudge (who is a Calvinist and non SDA) and misrepresent other views of conditionalist raises questions of Morey's integrity. This same type of misrepresentation occurs in other books Morey has written. However Morey's book is very valuable in talking about the human spirit and the intermediate state which I believe is clearly Biblical. Also Morey is much more charitable towards SDAs in print than he is in person, as he regards many evangelical SDAs as his brothers who he has had wonderful fellowship with, and that annihilation is not a barrier to fellowship. Stan |
