| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 710 Registered: 8-2004  |
When studying a particular passage of the Bible, I like to compare different translations to get as clear an understanding of the passage as I can in English. (I like to look at the original languages too, but do not have a good working knowledge of them. I'd be happy to hear input from those of you who do!) So, to start this discussion I'm posting several translations of the passage that talks about it. I'll follow with another post of my own questions and observations: "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." Romans 14:1-4 NIV "Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do. And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree withóeven when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. "For instance, a person who has been around for a while might well be convinced that he can eat anything on the table, while another, with a different background, might assume he should only be a vegetarian and eat accordingly. But since both are guests at Christ's table, wouldn't it be terribly rude if they fell to criticizing what the other ate or didn't eat? God, after all, invited them both to the table. Do you have any business crossing people off the guest list or interfering with God's welcome? If there are corrections to be made or manners to be learned, God can handle that without your help." Romans 14:1-4 Message Paraphrase AS FOR the man who is a weak believer, welcome him [into your fellowship], but not to criticize his opinions or pass judgment on his scruples or perplex him with discussions. One [man's faith permits him to] believe he may eat anything, while a weaker one [limits his] eating to vegetables. Let not him who eats look down on or despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains criticize and pass judgment on him who eats; for God has accepted and welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on and censure another's household servant? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he shall stand and be upheld, for the Master (the Lord) is mighty to support him and make him stand." Romans 14:1-4 Amplified Version "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:1-4 KJV "And him who is weak in the faith receive ye -- not to determinations of reasonings; one doth believe that he may eat all things -- and he who is weak doth eat herbs; let not him who is eating despise him who is not eating: and let not him who is not eating judge him who is eating, for God did receive him. Thou -- who art thou that art judging another's domestic? to his own master he doth stand or fall; and he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:1-4 Young's Literal Translation But take ye a frail man in belief, not in deemings of thoughts. [Forsooth take ye a sick man in belief, not in deceptions, or disputations, of thoughts.] For another man believeth, that he may eat all things; but he that is frail [but he that is sick, or unsteadfast], eat worts. (the word wort here means plant in middle English, according to Yahoo Dictionary) He that eateth, despise not him that eateth not; and he that eateth not, deem not him that eateth. For God hath taken him to him(self) [For why God hath taken him]. Who art thou, that deemest another's servant? To his lord he standeth, or falleth from him. But he shall stand; for the Lord is mighty to make him perfect[a]. [a]Romans 14:4 To his lord he standeth, or falleth down. Forsooth he shall stand; for the Lord is mighty to ordain him, or make steadfast Romans 14:1-4 Wyclyffe New Testament | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 149 Registered: 9-2006  |
And then thereís Rivers version. If a brother or sister comes to your midst who has a different view of doctrine, even though he/she may seem slightly opinionated, try to keep yer yap shut fer once. Remember the hole God dug you out of. Try to be kind fer once will ya? Fer instance a fellow whos been in the way fer 40 years might think he can jump, dance and shout all over the place and the new brother firmly believes one should sit quietly and meekly, donít be rude, sit quieltly and meekly next to him. Encourage him in the faith, God has accepted you both and he donít need yer special expertise to hold the fellow up. P.S. I like the NIV the best. A great study subject HLM2 it appears this lesson goes to about verse 10, thanks for kicking my brain into gear. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 712 Registered: 8-2004 |
It seems to me useful to see who Paul is referring to in this passage as the 'weak brother'. From the very verse itself we see that it is: "him whose faith is weak" "fellow believers who don't see things the way you do - strong on opinions but weak in the faith department" "the man who is a weak believer" "him that is weak in the faith" "him who is weak in the faith" "a frail man in belief" Over and over I see two traits of this person Paul is talking about: Someone who is weak. Someone who is in the faith. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 713 Registered: 8-2004 |
In looking at the above list I would say that the 'Message Paraphrase' is the least coherent with the other versions. It appears to have had more liberties taken with it. Reminds me of why it's called a paraphrase . . . and why doctrine is not safely built on Paraphrasing!  | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 246 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes! River. Remembering the hole God dug me out of--pretty deep one! Otherwise, arrogance about doctrine, about faith, instead of meekly living my faith might make me fall right back into it. I read something, recently, which the gist of it was we can't get into trouble with just our ears. Thank you, Mary, for starting this thread! And, yes, it is important to identify, whom is the weaker brother, to begin with. Important questions to understand, imho--How is one weak in the faith? Do we correct every individual we come across, everytime? Are we always correct in our doctrine the rest of our lives? (I have found that I have not always been, since leaving Adventism 28 years ago) Mary, I am not trying to usurp your questions. Put these on hold, if needed. These just popped into my head. To end, I think prayer is the frist response we should have to anyone 'weaker', then go from there and the Holy Spirit. And, in prayer, ask God to point out our own weaknesses. Cathy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 150 Registered: 9-2006 |
Helovesme2, How do you think one might identify this one who is weak in the faith? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 714 Registered: 8-2004 |
Yes River, that 'River Version' gives plenty of food for thought! Cathy, glad to see your questions here too. I'm not trying to be exclusive here at all. I'd be glad to see what other people have found and will continue to write down what I've found (and am finding) too. The questions so far are: Who is the person who is weak in faith? How are they weak? How can we identify this one who is weak in faith? What are we to do? Correct them every time? Are we always correct ourselves? I'm currently working on answers to what it means to be 'weak in the faith'. I hope to post what I have so far later tonight. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2005  |
River asked, "How do you think one might identify this one who is weak in the faith?" I'm not Helovesme2, but I'd like to give an answer to your question, River. Paul tells us right there in the same passage who is the one who is weak in the faith...that is the one who eats herbs. And then, if we go on to verse 5, by inference, the weak one is the one who esteems one day above another. We can also find a description of a "weak brother" in I Cor 8, were Paul gives instructions concerning those who are afraid to eat meat offered to idols. So the weak are described as the herb-eaters, the day-esteemers, and the idol-meat-detesters. Paul said about the weak: "To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some." 1 Cor 9:22 So, if I follow Paul's example, I have reasoned that I should continue to observe the Sabbath according to my husband's pattern, even though I'm no longer Adventist and am now regularly attending a mainline Protestant church on Sundays. Additionally, I continue to eat the same foods my husband eats (no beef or pork, but yes chicken, turkey and meat analogs), so as not to be a stumblingblock to him. I am utterly and completely convinced that I am free to worship on any and every day of the week without feeling any guilt whatsoever. And I am utterly and completely convinced that I am free to eat pork, beef, shrimp, and clams, if I should choose to do so. However, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that doing these things in my husband's presence would cause him a huge amount of dismay and concern. I love him so much that I don't want to do that to him. However, when I'm not around my husband, such as when I visit my non-SDA relatives on Saturday, I feel completely free to buy gasoline, eat at a restaurant, and eat beef or pork, if I so choose, as long as I know the reports of such activities will not get back to my husband, thereby causing him concern. So, does this make me a two-faced hypocrite? Or does it make me a Biblical Christian? Am I enabling my husband to continue being "weak," when I should rather try to convince him to grow up in faith? Should I live my life in my Christ-given freedom, not giving any regard to how it might offend my husband? Or should I be prepared to sacrifice my own freedom for the rest of my life, in case my husband continues in his "weakness" for that long? Honestwitness | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 247 Registered: 2-2006 |
In answer to one of my questions, dealing everytime with a brother--for a person, who is seeking answers, at least--I would ask myself, am I called or gifted to be a teacher or to be a teacher to this person and/or to teach on a particualr topic? Sometimes, I am, sometimes, I am not. At times, it is best for me to refer them to another person, a website or to a book. Just now, it came to my mind of how my own spiritual mentor/teacher is with me--very patient, gentle, listening and taking all the time in the world with me; never assuming anything. I know he and his wife know more than I do and, sometimes, I feel stupid, but they never makes me feel stupid. They never patronize nor even act 'educated'. They are as natural and 'good people' as anyone would feel comfortable with as they answer questions and explain things or correct me. And they never correct me unless I ask for them to or it is in a class and they teach it. I think in interacting with someone weaker in the faith, there has to be a natural, easy connection most of the time, at least. And the most gracious of courtesies...respect. And patience, even if it takes years. Our mental timing and processing is not theirs...nor God's in their heart, for that matter. Cathy | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2006 |
Honestwitness, I feel for you. You are doing what my non-SDA first husband did for me, when I was 19. Poor man. I didn't have the maturity to appreciate it at the time. I think you are being a very loving wife, not causing your husband strife; offense; nor breaking your bond; plus submitting in love as the NT told wives to do with their pagan husbands; and leaving the convicting up to the Holy Spirit, who is the only one whom is able to convict hearts, minds and souls anyway. You can respectfully, peacefully tell him what you believe, but live in harmony with him, through action, out of love. It isn't like there is anything you are doing with him that is sin. What wife ever won over a husband to her side with harping, nagging, causing strife, open warfare, upsetting his meals, and giving him unrest instead of serenity and a haven at home? Even if a man outwardly complies, inwardly he rebels. He is not won over into a belief to a wife's ways. Scripture says that by a wife's quiet conduct, she influences. God bless you, Honestwitness, and may Christ give you wisdom, daily, and bless your Bond~ Cathy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 151 Registered: 9-2006 |
I would like to submit a real case that I have personally wondered about. My flesh and blood brother is also a Christian brother. He is so very strict. He does not own a T.V., has no electronics in his home accept a small transistor radio. Believes his wife should do all the housework, goes to formal prayer 2 times a day in the home. Hardly ever laughs. Rules the bank account. Tells her what she can and canít buy. Is largely out of touch on what goes on in society. Has a good understanding of the scripture. Strict daily Bible study. Is very strict on the church. I sometimes truly feel he is weak in the faith in some areas. Me. Not very strict. Swimming in electronics. Donít like to do housework but I do. I respect my wifeís opinion. I donít like to wash dishes or cook, but I will in a heart beat. I do have my own savings account and its hard for her to get a lone from me. I expect her to have hers. I like to laugh a lot but can be very serious. I watch the news every day. We donít have formal prayer. What I mean by that is kneeling down in the living room, we do pray together however not often. When he visits I donít turn on the T.V., I feel as if Iím walking on eggs trying not to offend him in any way. When I visit him, same thing. I do so enjoy his visits because both of us love the Lord and discuss the things of God. I call him and talk at least an hour a week. His past. married at 18, been divorced twice, now married Been through the Vietnam war. Lost a child about 12 years of age. Worked like dog his whole life. 10th grade education. He,s been all over the world, job related. My past. Married at 22, still married. Military service. All children still alive, thank God. Did what I wanted too, went where I wanted too. Played music some. College education + plus trade school. Perpetual student. Still study average of four hours per day/7 days a week. Worked so many different jobs I identify most with the guy on ìDirty Jobsî. Never would work at a job I didnít like. Does this help or hinder the thread? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 152 Registered: 9-2006 |
Honestwitness, I think you have pinned it down the lesson I get from this text. Laying our own feeling aside for another person, even being willing to suffer through. So,does this make me a two-faced hypocrite? I don't think so, what I see is a Christ loving Christian and you have my respect for sure, I honestly do not know whether I could do what you are doing so I guess that makes me one of the weaker in the faith.I do believe there are multiple situations this text can apply to. I think the real crux of it is that we each have our own weakness and strengths and so need to be prepared to lay aside if called on to do so. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 715 Registered: 8-2004 |
And yet this is not a text that says we should be bound by the consciences of the weaker brother. In fact we are to live in the freedom of Christ. We are not to judge the one we consider weak, and neither are they to judge us who are more free. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 716 Registered: 8-2004 |
Are the following examples of 'accepting the weaker brother' or of something else? . . . scurrying to change into dark, specially designed clothing and prayer-coverings when our Mennonite friends come to visit? . . . turning off the lights, the TV, the radio, and the telephone when our Amish friends come over? . . . running to wash our cosmetics off and hide our jewelry when SDARM members come over? . . . 'keeping sabbath' because our SDA friends might not understand if we don't? . . . eating only vegan because our Hindu friend can't bear to watch us eat his/her reincarnated relative? . . . wearing a burka because our Muslim neighbors might be offended if we dress otherwise? Perhaps by turning this list around we can see the hypocrisy (often layered under many good intentions) of living this way. Is this REALLY the considerate way to behave? What happens to our witness when we allow our behavior (or worse yet our consciences) to be bound by the expectations of those around us? To have our Mennonite friends keep special clothing to change into when we visit them so that they 'look more like us'. . . . To have our Amish friends hide their horses and lanterns and washboards, and hook up lights, tv's and radios, etc to convince us they're just like us . . . To have our SDARM friends pulling out cosmetics and jewelry so as not to offend us . . . Our SDA friends NOT keeping Sabbath around us because we might misunderstand . . . Our Hindu friend violating their conscience by eating steak with us, so as not to offend . . . Our Muslim Neighbor lady only wearing her burka when none of us westerners were around to wonder about her . . . . Truth can bear the light. It is the works of darkness that must be hidden. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 717 Registered: 8-2004 |
What I came to understand the 'weak in the faith' to be is just that: 'weak in THE FAITH', not just weak in faith generally and not dogmatically of a different faith. The weak in faith are weak Christians, young Christians, possibly with one or another frustrating besetting sin or another (not that older Christians don't have these also) who have not yet grasped the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4998 Registered: 12-2003  |
What a great thread. Mary, I really appreciate your conclusion that the "weaker brother" is actually a true believer. Honestwitness, I don't know whether or not your husband is actually a believer. The difference, of course, between relating to a weak believer and a dogmatic unbeliever is that the true believer, even if weak, can resonate to the truth because he/she has the Holy Spirit living in him and has been born again. Sometimes, however, if one is relating to a strongly religious person who is not actually born again, it is not particularly helpful to honor them without also doing what you must for your own spiritual growth. Example: (forgive me if you've read this before): in the leaders' meeting before women's Bible study a few years ago, this very subject came up. Everyone was "understanding" that they needed to defer to the weaker sister/brother and deny themselves whatever the other couldn't handle. Then I brought up the question of my vegan family resenting that we had turkey on Thanksgivingónot only because they believed we were sinning by eating it but because they believed the molecules of the turkey were mingling with the molcules of the vegetarian food as they cooked. "Why don't you just cook food they like when they come?" several women asked. Elizabeth, our leader, spoke up quickly and with some passion: "No. In this situation the issue is that Colleen is in charge of her own house; she doesn't need to change how she runs her house for people who disagree with her." My cooking just vegan food for my relatives would not help their faith at all. It would only make them feel more "comfortable" and hopeful that their unyielding attitude was effecting a change in us that would propel us back into Adventism. Honestwitness, could you attend a church of your choice on Sunday while also accompanying your husband to the SDA church on Sabbath? Just a thought... Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 312 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dear Friends, The study of Romans 14 more than any other Bible chapter convinced me of the fallacies of Adventism. I searched through several commentaries on this chapter and was amazed at what I had missed all these years. Please allow me to share a few thoughts I have found regarding this chapter. I will share part of Michael Andrus's comments as I found them most useful. There are three classes of actions: Things that are right. Things that are wrong. And things that don't matter, or are morally neutral. In this chapter Paul refers to diet and days of worship as thing that are morally neutral. Those that are "weak in the faith".....this man is having a doctrinal and theological problem...he hasn't yet come to grips that with the fact that at the death of Christ the believer was released from the bondage to the Mosaic Law. He is weak in that his conscience still bothers him when he eats meat or fails to observe the Sabbath, or drinks certain beverages, etc. He's weak in that he is still in slavery to the shadows and hasn't experienced the glorious freedom which comes through Jesus Christ. He is weak in that he hasn't fully liberated himself from the belief in the efficacy of works. He still thinks more of what he can do for God, than what God has done for him. His general approach is, If the Bible hasn't specifically approved something, then it is probably wrong. That's the weak brother. On the other hand, there is the strong brother. His general approach is, if the Bible hasn't specifically forbidden something, then it's probably within his rights to do it. He enjoys his freedom in Christ and does't find his conscience inhibiting him in regards to many of the things that don't matter. The curious thing here it that these labels have been largely reversed in the conservative church today( and in the Adventist church specifically). The legalistic believer who has a list of don'ts a mile long; who has appointed himself as the spiritual watchdog of the church; actually considers himself to be the strong brother! After all, he's the one fighting to maintain high standards. He's the one who is trying to keep the spiritual bars from being lowered. He's the one who is standing up for God and country and motherhood. But the apostle Paul says he is not the strong brother --- he is actually the brother who is weak in the faith. The strong brother, on the other hand, often gets accused of being weak. He's considered a compromiser because he's not sufficiently separated from worldly activities. He's viewed as a potentially bad influence on the young people because he won't demand that everyone totally abstain from this or that. The fact of the matter is that he is stronger in the faith and may be more biblical, because of the freedom and liberty he enjoys. Many Christians tend to make the assumption that the conservative position is always the right position, and the more liberal position is always wrong. This idea however is not supported in this chapter. There is one attitude God requires of both the weak and the strong Christians in the area of things that don't matter or are morally neutral. We are to Accept One Another. The second half of Romans 14 continues on by describing how the strong in the faith and the weak in the faith are to get along. This chapter continues to be a wonderful study on how we as Chrstians can respect the lifestyle choices of our fellow believers, even when their understanding is different than our own. Peace and blessings to you all, and thank-you for this thread. Randy | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 587 Registered: 10-2002  |
Mary, what you shared makes me view Romans 14 in the light of Paul's heart for those he preached to in 1st Corinthians 9. I begin to see that Paul wrote Romans 14 to people in process -- and that he was "becoming all things to all people so that he might save some". He did want them to grow, but some would grow faster than others, and in order to keep things peaceful (and to keep the Body from tearing at itself), he called on them all to accept one another. It also makes clear that more burden of responsibility is placed on those who are able to recognize "weakness" better, on those who are stronger in their faith and who do exercise more of their freedom. Because of having more knowledge, more love is necessary so that we don't cause divisions with further freedoms. We're able to "shape-shift", so to speak, to fit in here and there. But often we don't "accept" those whose faith is weak... we expect them to grow strong as soon as we tell them the truth of their freedom. Of course, the reverse is also true of those who know more and have more freedom: as soon as we realize that others don't know something, if we are inflexible and do not accept them unless they change or adopt our position, then perhaps it is a sign of our weakness. Perhaps Paul is indicating that a true sign of "strong faith" is when we learn to accept and love one another in spite of differences & disagreements, even theological ones to certain degrees. This reminds me of something I read by the Christian Native American author Richard Twiss: that the world will know Christ is in us by our love for one another. The quality of our relationships with each other is the greatest witness of God's reality inside us. If the world sees us fighting over many things and not accepting one another, then they will not believe that God has sent His Son. But if they see His love in our relationships between one another, if we are one in His love, then they world may know that Father has sent Him. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 588 Registered: 10-2002 |
Randy, thanks for sharing that!! I agree! The irony is amazing ...and difficult. Difficult for legalists to accept, or anyone who believes everyone ought to believe what they do (whether "liberal" or "conservative"). It is usually very difficult for the strict believer to accept others who are not as strict -- whether in behavior or in having the "correct" beliefs. So I think this realization should call any of us who believe we know more to greater love and acceptance. Knowing the difference between "weak" and "strong" means being called to more love & acceptance. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 187 Registered: 7-2005 |
Colleen wrote: Honestwitness, could you attend a church of your choice on Sunday while also accompanying your husband to the SDA church on Sabbath? My response: I'm already attending a Sunday church of my choice, and really enjoying it. However, it's been a little over a year since I attended the SDA church with my husband. He continues to attend by himself and be very active. I've asked myself, or maybe it's God asking me, many times whether I should attend both churches each weekend. So far, the solution that seems best to my spirit is to first become well-grounded in my new church, and then after I'm solidly connected and committed to my Sunday church, then once in a while go back to visit my husband's SDA church. At this point, though, even after an entire year, I hear a very loud screeching sound in my spirit, like the brakes of a car squealing to a stop, when I think of going back to any SDA church. Honestwitness |
